I am cutting my hair

[unbreakable]

..

[vijaydeep Singh]

Gurfateh

Being Sikh is not everyones cake so let him cut his hair if Akal does not wants it.

Main problem her is being purit of Guru Granth Sahib and not abiding with Dasham Granth and Sarbloh Granth(both tells us to keep Hairs).

Rom is hair of Body and holes are called romchidras.

Tell him that God us Sikhs is not in control of any one.But controls us.

That God can not be emresed by our deeds.

When that God wants us to salvage while we are alive,We are made to elminate our Ego and surrender to That God.

Not interefereing with apearance given to us by Akal makes us not to shave.When Akal brings us to Sickness and we are unable to sing glory of Akal and to retain our origeonal shape we may let there be some hair be discarded but be replaced by new once we are OK.

Those who want to imress by deeds and shaving hairs see Arihantdev Avtar in sridasam.org.

And see some more below from Part 149 of Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

ਸਲੋਕੁ ਮਃ ੧ ॥

सलोकु मः १ ॥

salok mehlaa 1.

Shalok, First Mehl:

ਸਿਰੁ ਖੋਹਾਇ ਪੀਅਹਿ ਮਲਵਾਣੀ ਜੂਠਾ ਮੰਗਿ ਮੰਗਿ ਖਾਹੀ ॥

सिरु खोहाइ पीअहि मलवाणी जूठा मंगि मंगि खाही ॥

sir khohaa-ay pee-ah malvaanee joothaa mang mang khaahee.

They pluck the hair out of their heads, and drink in filthy water; they beg endlessly and eat the garbage which others have thrown away.

(this may means that shaving head is like that as all jain monks do such act of shaving head to reduce sins).

ਫੋਲਿ ਫਦੀਹਤਿ ਮੁਹਿ ਲੈਨਿ ਭੜਾਸਾ ਪਾਣੀ ਦੇਖਿ ਸਗਾਹੀ ॥

फोलि फदीहति मुहि लैनि भड़ासा पाणी देखि सगाही ॥

fol fadeehat muhi lain bharhaasaa paanee daykh sagaahee.

They spread manure, they suck in rotting smells, and they are afraid of clean water.

ਭੇਡਾ ਵਾਗੀ ਸਿਰੁ ਖੋਹਾਇਨਿ ਭਰੀਅਨਿ ਹਥ ਸੁਆਹੀ ॥

भेडा वागी सिरु खोहाइनि भरीअनि हथ सुआही ॥

bhaydaa vaagee sir khohaa-in bharee-an hath su-aahee.

Their hands are smeared with ashes, and the hair on their heads is plucked out-they are like sheep!

ਮਾਊ ਪੀਊ ਕਿਰਤੁ ਗਵਾਇਨਿ ਟਬਰ ਰੋਵਨਿ ਧਾਹੀ ॥

माऊ पीऊ किरतु गवाइनि टबर रोवनि धाही ॥

maa-oo pee-oo kirat gavaa-in tabar rovan Dhaahee.

They have renounced the lifestyle of their mothers and fathers, and their families and relatives cry out in distress.

ਓਨਾ ਪਿੰਡੁ ਨ ਪਤਲਿ ਕਿਰਿਆ ਨ ਦੀਵਾ ਮੁਏ ਕਿਥਾਊ ਪਾਹੀ ॥

ओना पिंडु न पतलि किरिआ न दीवा मुए किथाऊ पाही ॥

onaa pind na patal kiri-aa na deevaa mu-ay kithaa-oo paahee.

No one offers the rice dishes at their last rites, and no one lights the lamps for them. After their death, where will they be sent?

ਅਠਸਠਿ ਤੀਰਥ ਦੇਨਿ ਨ ਢੋਈ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਣ ਅੰਨੁ ਨ ਖਾਹੀ ॥

अठसठि तीरथ देनि न ढोई ब्रहमण अंनु न खाही ॥

athsath tirath dayn na dho-ee barahman ann na khaahee.

The sixty-eight sacred shrines of pilgrimage give them no place of protection, and no Brahmin will eat their food.

ਸਦਾ ਕੁਚੀਲ ਰਹਹਿ ਦਿਨੁ ਰਾਤੀ ਮਥੈ ਟਿਕੇ ਨਾਹੀ ॥

सदा कुचील रहहि दिनु राती मथै टिके नाही ॥

sadaa kucheel raheh din raatee mathai tikay naahee.

They remain polluted forever, day and night; they do not apply the ceremonial tilak mark to their foreheads.

ਝੁੰਡੀ ਪਾਇ ਬਹਨਿ ਨਿਤਿ ਮਰਣੈ ਦੜਿ ਦੀਬਾਣਿ ਨ ਜਾਹੀ ॥

झुंडी पाइ बहनि निति मरणै दड़ि दीबाणि न जाही ॥

jhundee paa-ay bahan nit marnai darh deebaan na jaahee.

They sit together in silence, as if in mourning; they do not go to the Lord's Court.

ਲਕੀ ਕਾਸੇ ਹਥੀ ਫੁੰਮਣ ਅਗੋ ਪਿਛੀ ਜਾਹੀ ॥

लकी कासे हथी फुमण अगो पिछी जाही ॥

lakee kaasay hathee fumman ago pichhee jaahee.

With their begging bowls hanging from their waists, and their fly-brushes in their hands, they walk along in single file.

ਨਾ ਓਇ ਜੋਗੀ ਨਾ ਓਇ ਜੰਗਮ ਨਾ ਓਇ ਕਾਜੀ ਮੁੰਲਾ ॥

ना ओइ जोगी ना ओइ जंगम ना ओइ काजी मुंला ॥

naa o-ay jogee naa o-ay jangam naa o-ay kaajee muNlaa.

They are not Yogis, and they are not Jangams, followers of Shiva. They are not Qazis or Mullahs.

ਦਯਿ ਵਿਗੋਏ ਫਿਰਹਿ ਵਿਗੁਤੇ ਫਿਟਾ ਵਤੈ ਗਲਾ ॥

दयि विगोए फिरहि विगुते फिटा वतै गला ॥

da-yi vigo-ay fireh vigutay fitaa vatai galaa.

Ruined by the Merciful Lord, they wander around in disgrace, and their entire troop is contaminated.

ਜੀਆ ਮਾਰਿ ਜੀਵਾਲੇ ਸੋਈ ਅਵਰੁ ਨ ਕੋਈ ਰਖੈ ॥

जीआ मारि जीवाले सोई अवरु न कोई रखै ॥

jee-aa maar jeevaalay so-ee avar na ko-ee rakhai.

The Lord alone kills and restores to life; no one else can protect anyone from Him.

ਦਾਨਹੁ ਤੈ ਇਸਨਾਨਹੁ ਵੰਜੇ ਭਸੁ ਪਈ ਸਿਰਿ ਖੁਥੈ ॥

दानहु तै इसनानहु वंजे भसु पई सिरि खुथै ॥

daanhu tai isnaanhu vanjay bhas pa-ee sir khuthai.

They go without giving alms or any cleansing baths; their shaven heads become covered with dust.

ਪਾਣੀ ਵਿਚਹੁ ਰਤਨ ਉਪੰਨੇ ਮੇਰੁ ਕੀਆ ਮਾਧਾਣੀ ॥

पाणी विचहु रतन उपंने मेरु कीआ माधाणी ॥

paanee vichahu ratan upannay mayr kee-aa maaDhaanee.

The jewel emerged from the water, when the mountain of gold was used to churn it.

ਅਠਸਠਿ ਤੀਰਥ ਦੇਵੀ ਥਾਪੇ ਪੁਰਬੀ ਲਗੈ ਬਾਣੀ ॥

अठसठि तीरथ देवी थापे पुरबी लगै बाणी ॥

athsath tirath dayvee thaapay purbee lagai banee.

The gods established the sixty-eight sacred shrines of pilgrimage, where the festivals are celebrated and hymns are chanted.

ਨਾਇ ਨਿਵਾਜਾ ਨਾਤੈ ਪੂਜਾ ਨਾਵਨਿ ਸਦਾ ਸੁਜਾਣੀ ॥

नाइ निवाजा नातै पूजा नावनि सदा सुजाणी ॥

naa-ay nivaajaa naatai poojaa naavan sadaa sujaanee.

After bathing, the Muslims recite their prayers, and after bathing, the Hindus perform their worship services. The wise always take cleansing baths.

ਮੁਇਆ ਜੀਵਦਿਆ ਗਤਿ ਹੋਵੈ ਜਾਂ ਸਿਰਿ ਪਾਈਐ ਪਾਣੀ ॥

मुइआ जीवदिआ गति होवै जां सिरि पाईऐ पाणी ॥

mu-i-aa jeevdi-aa gat hovai jaaN sir paa-ee-ai paanee.

At the time of death, and at the time of birth, they are purified, when water is poured on their heads.

ਨਾਨਕ ਸਿਰਖੁਥੇ ਸੈਤਾਨੀ ਏਨਾ ਗਲ ਨ ਭਾਣੀ ॥

नानक सिरखुथे सैतानी एना गल न भाणी ॥

naanak sirkhutay saitaanee aynaa gal na bhaanee.

O Nanak, the shaven-headed ones are devils. They are not pleased to hear these words.

ਵੁਠੈ ਹੋਇਐ ਹੋਇ ਬਿਲਾਵਲੁ ਜੀਆ ਜੁਗਤਿ ਸਮਾਣੀ ॥

वुठै होइऐ होइ बिलावलु जीआ जुगति समाणी ॥

vuthai ho-i-ai ho-ay bilaaval jee-aa jugat samaanee.

When it rains, there is happiness. Water is the key to all life.

ਵੁਠੈ ਅੰਨੁ ਕਮਾਦੁ ਕਪਾਹਾ ਸਭਸੈ ਪੜਦਾ ਹੋਵੈ ॥

वुठै अंनु कमादु कपाहा सभसै पड़दा होवै ॥

vuthai ann kamaad kapaahaa sabhsai parh-daa hovai.

When it rains, the corn grows, and the sugar cane, and the cotton, which provides clothing for all.

ਵੁਠੈ ਘਾਹੁ ਚਰਹਿ ਨਿਤਿ ਸੁਰਹੀ ਸਾ ਧਨ ਦਹੀ ਵਿਲੋਵੈ ॥

वुठै घाहु चरहि निति सुरही सा धन दही विलोवै ॥

vuthai ghaahu chareh nit surhee saa Dhan dahee vilovai.

When it rains, the cows always have grass to graze upon, and housewives can churn the milk into butter.

ਤਿਤੁ ਘਿਇ ਹੋਮ ਜਗ ਸਦ ਪੂਜਾ ਪਇਐ ਕਾਰਜੁ ਸੋਹੈ ॥

तितु घिइ होम जग सद पूजा पइऐ कारजु सोहै ॥

tit ghi-ay hom jag sad poojaa pa-i-ai kaaraj sohai.

With that ghee, sacred feasts and worship services are performed; all these efforts are blessed.

ਗੁਰੂ ਸਮੁੰਦੁ ਨਦੀ ਸਭਿ ਸਿਖੀ ਨਾਤੈ ਜਿਤੁ ਵਡਿਆਈ ॥

गुरू समुंदु नदी सभि सिखी नातै जितु वडिआई ॥

guroo samund nadee sabh sikhee naatai jit vadi-aa-ee.

The Guru is the ocean, and all His Teachings are the river. Bathing within it, glorious greatness is obtained.

ਨਾਨਕ ਜੇ ਸਿਰਖੁਥੇ ਨਾਵਨਿ ਨਾਹੀ ਤਾ ਸਤ ਚਟੇ ਸਿਰਿ ਛਾਈ ॥੧॥

नानक जे सिरखुथे नावनि नाही ता सत चटे सिरि छाई ॥१॥

naanak jay sirkhutay naavan naahee taa sat chatay sir chhaa-ee. ||1||

O Nanak, if the shaven-headed ones do not bathe, then seven handfuls of ashes are upon their heads. ||1||

[TROUBLED]

if the sikh loves sikh religion, they will follow the hukam and style of living of guru gobind singh ji and a sikh is one who takes amrit and become baptised. If u r not baptised u r not a sikh.

[tSingh]

rubbish

[vijaydeep Singh]

Gurfateh

Dear Troubled ji,

Prove your point by any of our three Holy books. Ie Sikhi is bounded by baptism ie Akal is incapable to make us Sikh without Baptism.

Das is not anti Baptism but anti to antagonism for non baptised Sikhs.Such person may not be good in some aspects but still can be better in other aspects of Sikhi.

[sikh_learner]

Guru Gobind Singh Ji has declared that Sikhs must keep hair. Ask your friend if he knows better than Guru Ji? These are all excuses that people make up to convince themselves its ok. And Vijadeep Singh...we shouldn't just give up on someone, and say, "if he wants to cut it, let him". We need to help each other out, and support each other. All Guru Jees told Sikhs to not cut hair, WE CAN'T CUT IT...PERIOD.

Guru Granth Sahib is for everyone...all religions. A Sikh cannot cut their hair, because it is a Hukam of their Guru....if we still want to go against Guru Gobind Singh Ji, then we must ask ourselves...AM I REALLY A SIKH?

[unbreakable]

..

[DSM]

wahe guru ji ka khalsa wahe guru ji ke fateh

The following is an extract from the book Hair Power written by Sarup Singh Alag in particualr his section about Guru, Gurbani and Hair chapter 4 page 81

Sarup Sing Alag also mentions in his book that it is scientifically proven that the hair serves as a factory providing Vitamin D for the body , Vitamin D protects a person against TB , and is essential element for bones,teeth and the nervous system.

Guru,Gurbani and Hair Chapter 4 page 84

( Note :- I will not attempt to quote the whole chapter just part of it , hopefully the translation from the Sri Guru Granth Sahib made by Sarup Singh Alag

Guru Nanak describing the beautiful image of God , has said

` Beautiful are thine eyes, relish - giving thy teeth , O Lord

Thou art the Lord who hast graceful nose and long hair'

SGGS Page 567

Guru Amar Dass Ji , in one of his hymns , says of the beards :

' True are the beards

Which touch the Gurus feet

They who , night and day , serve the Guru

Ever abide in bliss'

True are the faces and true the beards of those who utter and

practise the truth

SGGS page 1419

Reference to hair in Gurubani can also be found as detailed below :-

'With their every hair

they utter the Lords name

and every moment

remember they that Lord

SGGS page 1247

With every hair, every hair of mine

I meditate on the Lord through the Guru

SGGS page 443

In every hair,mind and body of mine

is in the pang of separation

Without seeing the Lord

I can sleep not SGGS page 836

Gods name is permeating every hair of mine

The perfect Guru has given it to me in charity

SGGS page 1144

In every hair( of mine) dwells the Lord, the Enemy of

pride ( SGGS page 344)

Baba Farid also says:-

Farid, the hair of head are grey

My beard is grey , my moutaches are also grey

O my thoughtless and insane soul

Why enjoyest thou revelments

SGGS page 1380

Baba Farid was a pious Muslim Sufi Saint. It is evident from his hymn quoted above that the hair on his head and of his beard and moustaches were intact and unshorn. This reflects the general life style of 13th century people who preferred to keep unshorn hair

Bhagat Bhikhan says:-

The water flows from mine eyes

My body has become weak

My hair have assumed the milk-colour

Mine throat is choked

And cannot utter even a word

what can I, a mere mortal, do now ?

SGGS page 659

In this hymn Bhagat Bhikhan makes a beautiful reference to his white ( grey) hair

Bhagat Kabir also satirizes those who trim their hair :-

A) If one gets sidhi through getting oneself shaved off all the sheep would have got liberation

In the following couplet he hints if having natural hair by all human beings till death

Mans bones burn like the log wood

Hair burn like the bundle of grass ( SGGS page 870)

Bhagat Namdev in his hymn " Ferry me across the World Ocean ' O the World-Lord,'' addresses Lord-God several times as one posessing beautiful hair For example

My body is drowning therein,

O my Lord bearing keshas

Ferry me across

O my Lord bearing keshas ( SGGS page 1196)

Or

Hail, unto thee , O my darling Father the lord of wealth

Thous art long- haired and dark-hued SGGS page 988

How beautiful the hair of Waheguru would be that Bhagat Namdev sees only his hair instead of his other numerous qualities and he sings their praises again and again.

Bhagat Ravidas and the Hair

Thou beautifully dressest they hair

and wearest slanting turban on thy head

But this body shall be

reduced to a heap of ashes SGGS 659

Besides references to the hair in the Gurbani , we feel pleasure in recording here that the holy hair of Guru Amar Das are still preserved at Goindwal for the benefit of pilgrims visiting the shrine.

A few holy hair of Guru Gobind Singh Ji are preserved with the royal family of erstwhile nabha State.

Sri Guru Ram Das increased the grandeur of the hair by referring to them as ' a fly whisk [ of his own hair] for the Guru"

To cleanse the feet of thine slave

with my head hair

this is the object of my life. ( SGGS page 500)

My Lord, I am sacrifice

unto the Gods attendants

Making the whisk of my hair

I wave it over them.

And , the dust of their feet

I apply to my face. SGGS page 749

Making a fan of my hair,

I have it as a whisk over the saint SGGS page 745

According to verses like ' waving the whisk made of hair' the hair have been termed so pious , excellent and precious that such a whisk should be waved over Akalpurakh alone.

[tSingh]

'Unbreakable'

Make your mind up! You specifically asked those who believe sikhi is 'broken into four parts' not to post!! So not wishing to question your unbreakable blissful ignorance I keep quiet.

However, I thought it worth dropping in 'rubbish' in response to someone else's response. I love my kesh, but reject the view that only amritdharis are Sikh as doctrinely and historically unfounded rubbish and a 'sign of the times'.

[unbreakable]

..

[unbreakable]

..

[vijaydeep Singh]

Gurfateh

various orders or Samprdayas of Gurmat(including AKJ also) are made by Akal.

Till we have one God Akal even if we may have differant types of Codes yet we are breathren.

Forgive das for writng anything wrong.

[Beast]

tSingh - next time, please direct your comments towards that person who you intended them for.

As for the 4 paths which you believe, that is another debate for another time.

Believe what you want, if it makes you happy and if you feel you are getting closer to your goal..Different people, different views.

My personal view is why would Guru Nanak come to unite humanity under the banner of God, in one Path. One God, one Path, one Guru. We all are one.

But hey, you know what is right, right? because you said so. or you know someone who said so?

One God, One Path, One Sikh/Guru. Ek Oankar. Not Char Oanker.

Think about it. Why unite then spilt? Shouldn't have came in the first place. had plenty of religions.

Sikhi was revealed for a reason. Maybe, when the Sikhs and all the different kinds of Sikhs finally destroy Sikhi in the own ego, God might create another religion.

But again, another debate.

Why 5 K's instead of one?

Why 5 Banis a day insted of one?

u just took 2 different things and merged them into one to make a shabby point. :roll:

[tSingh]

unbreakable,

Firstly, I apologise letting my ego get the better of me and suggesting you are ignorant, clearly you're not.

Let me just clarify a few misunderstandings in your post though. Unlike modern jathas who compete with each other, the traditional 'orders' were mutually compatible since each were started with Maharaj's hukam for a specific purpose. In this sense, considering the enumerable qualities Guruji possessed, it is not suprising that these orders exist as means of expressing these various qualities where individuals naturally skilled in and drawn to them - the scholar, the warrior, the compassionate philanthropist, etc. Likewise human systems generally work best as a unity of diversity, celebrating and recognising each individual's strengths. In this sense, the traditional orders are testimony to Guru ji's recognition of this need for the panth to exist in the same way.

This doesn't mean there are four Gods as you suggest! There are certainly clear differences in the means to brahmgyan/mukti between Nihangs and the other orders though. So therefore there is no split as you see it.

Secondly for Guru ji to spread a message of unity, he didn;t do so by saying 'all become identical', he drew on commonalities in the bhagat tradition whether Sufi or Hindu, separate paths with commonalities acheiving the same state of oneness with God.

Thirdly on the issue of hair, not only must those who accept Udasis not write on here then, but those who accept the following (since these things also accept Sikhs with cut hair);

a) Sewapanthis

Hukamnamas written by Guru Gobind Singh ji after the creation of the Khalsa terming non-Singhs as 'my beloved Khalsa'

c) Historical texts

d) Rehitnamay

e) Historical non-Khalsa Sikhs

f) Damdami Taksal

[Guest]

very good post tsingh veer ji

[unbreakable]

..

[unbreakable]

..

[Beast]

Beast, why not 6, why not 7 or 8. Why not just 1? Why 5 banis? Why not just do Naam Simran? Why isn't that enough?

I do not know, i don't make up the rules, like a few people here, I am still learning, so if you going to tell me by posts are shabby, then you better step up with something good to say. .

Thanks tSingh, at least somebody on here has some intelligence and is not inclined to launching a attack without any type of argument.

I know what you are saying, you are entitled to your views and beliefs.

I will not carry on with this here, as this thread was not intended for a debate on the different kinds of Sikhs you have.

What does bother me, is, that everybody thinks they know what is best. Even the traditional orders, want part of that "limelight" which their oh so very best friends, the SGPC (british created organisation) are cherishing now.

I'm sorry if you think my post was an attack on you, but if you look at the context of what you wrote it just didn't make sense. And everyone that believes the "idea" of a number of orders adhered to your request to refrain from participating in this debate, but it was YOU who launched into a tirade.

Lets get back to the discussion at hand.

Agreed. But when doing so, please don't try to put others down because their belief is different to your own.

[Mekhane'ch Jannat]

Hair is a very important part of being a Singh or aspriring to become a Singh. (Singh=Someone who has taken amrit) So if you want to be a Singh don't cut your hair.

Now, my opinion is, not everyone is suited to a SINGh lifestyle. If a person cuts his/her hair that person is still a Sikh and can actively participate in Sikh community, for the communities benefit, and for their own benefit. Keeping your hair won't guarentee mukti, neither will cutting it, neither will going on pilgramage etc. Keeping your hair is something that a person must do 100% dil laake within sikh tradition. Without 100% dil then their is no point keeping it just to please other people. People must not keep their hair because they feel forced, then it is detrimental for themselves and Sikh Tradition.

Why force someone to do something they don't want to do?

I don't understand.

What has the soul got to do with hair?

Your soul is in the form of space ether akasa connected through electromagnetic waves to the pores, of which hair grow out. Keeping hair will make soul powerful and you will become invularable like samson.

If you believed the above bullshit, then you need your head examined, you bloody nutcase. There is no link between the "soul" (whatever that is) and hair. Keeping long hair IN the Sikh Tradition, and following the rules of that tradition, will transform you psychologically, to prepare you to receive grace from someone or other(GOD). Guru Gobind Singh Ji knew that as a person changes from outside he will change from inside. Similar to the power of ritual.

[Xylitol]

if you are blessed with Amrit, then you are connected to the Guru. you then have a Guru, simple as that. If you cut your hair, you are reneging on your part of the contract (if you took Amrit), and therefore you are turning your back on teh Guru. you would no longer have a Guru.

i understand that it is difficult with one group saying one thing and another group another thing. My suggestion is to follow the Guru's teachings, and where there is controversy research and decide for yourself. There is no controversy over the importance of Amrit (and by association - kesh) amond learned Sikhs with faith. Do not doubt the master, pray for answers, and keep searching. That is how it worked for me and I'm confidant that is how it could work for you. That doesn't mean that it will be easy-but ever notice how so many worthwhile things aren't easy?

[gursj]

its a time of choice and people choose whats right for them but sometimes we should consider that in doing so we are not breaking law.

same applies to people who cut hair but still use the title singh, they drink or smoke and still use the title singh.

even more some people have designer beards so called two-in-ones,

i find that more disrespectful .

guru ji never forced anyone to take amrit or to use the title singh than why are we mocking our guru.

if you want to take inspiration from guru granth sahib than guru sahib will not say no to you ( hair or no hair) . but let us not please not insult our gurus by following our manmat.

kesh or hair is a gift from guru ji if someone chooses not to accept than fine but please dont use title singh . this applies to the sikhs who drink/smoke .

we have to change our casual approach towards amrit , it doesnt come cheap ( a very high price has been paid by singhs and singhnis) nor does gifts attached to it so please dont disrespect them.

thanks

waheguru ji ka khalsa waheguru ji ki fateh

[unbreakable]

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