sexuality and sikhism

[Pheena]

I read in a book by Sant Singh ji Maskeen that "Sex is a part of the body, not the Mind."

In my undesrtanding so far is that When it becomes a part of the mind it is Sexuality. Which is Kaam. Sex is the natural course of reproduction, But Sexuality is a manifestation of Sex fueled by desire. Desire to experience the feeling of orgasm, of the other genders touch, smell, taste.... Desire then later manifests itself into Fantasy. When Fantasy is born, the mind is fully desiring the satisfaction of Sexual energy that itself has arisen. So the Mind itself creates teh Energy thru Fantasy then it wants to release the energy that it build up. So when did it ask YOU for permission? You simply fell under the spell of the mind following along thinking the mind knows what it is doing.

Sikh_Fauj, you make a good point, but the question is are we able to conroll the fire is of Sexual Satisfaction? To have sex is not a Crime, but to indulge in the Desire to have sex where you become attached to it where it becomes a necessity is a crime. It is a crime against not God, but against your True Potention, against your right to seek the Throne of your Kingdom.

Yea Western Psycologiest say Sex is healty, but it is healthy because it releases Tention or stress, it takes ones mind away from the workoholic ethic of western soceity. It is again only a temporary solution to the problem. Having Sex has nothing to do with your spritiuality unless we are getting into the Tantra, even then it is a 'Controlled' indulgent which takes many years of practice to harness the mind. Other than that, the Perscribed medicien of sex by doctors is only a means to release Tension, to release the enegery built up by Tention or Stress. The Same energy can be release by Working Out, Running, Taking a Vacation..etc. The Mind of Desire is given a free ticket to follow the desire for Sex and it will take every advantage of this freedom. This freedom will become its downfall. The mind is Clever and has perfected this Cleverness over a period of Million lifetimes.

[tableji]

kaam is not jus necessarily the desire to have sex, it can manifest in any thing u want...or desire

[Pheena]

good point tableji.

[Sukhi]

so how would the process of reproducing (having kids) work then?

if Sexuality is the desire of have sex and experience, then when you decide you want to have kids, what leads you to that decision? the desire to experience something, right? so is that another form of Kaam? wanting to have kids not necessarily for sex, but for having kids?

then does this make having kids wrong?

[Rakash Singh]

sukhi loves confusing people dnt u dear...? lol. kaam is desire yes... i dnt think there are many people out there with out any kaam, without any desire... how would we become motivated to do well at studies, or sports or anything else important to us>? maybe through love, but doesnt love have desire too?

having no desire would mean ultimately not giving a fcuk about anything apart frm Praising the Lord and being immeresed in His Grace.... i certainly cant do that...

actually sukhi one hot dog is around 250cals miniumum, and sex only burns 100 cals an hour... i can burn more than 1000 on the treadmill in an hour...

hey wat about sex on the treadmill? i leave u with that thought.... think of all the calories... lol.

[Sukhi]

i don't just like confusing others, i like confusing myself too. and my mind is still dizzy from tryin to figure out whether havin kids is Kaam-ful or Kaam-less.

i still want an answer to my question. because kids can only be had if you have Kaam. and if having Kaam is a good thing but it's control that you need, then only mahapurakhs should have kids. but they wouldn't want kids cuz they're Kaam-less. ack! what's a human to do?!

my bad bout the hot dogs Rakash. i only had American stats available to me at that moment and it was for a general sauerkraut without any relish. and if u were gonna burn 1000 cals on a treadmill, i dun think u'd wanna do anything else to, um, increase the calorie count. besides, can u imagine how devastating it would be if anything were to happen to the equipment if something went wrong?...

[Rakash Singh]

well i don't think we should have any kaam that may lead to one of the kurehits... i dont think we are able to supress all kaam, that can only be done by Guru's grace, but i think the message is be sincere and keep trying...

american hotdogs are evil, silly amount of cals... no wonder everyone is obease... ok not every one but more people than not... lol.. oh sh*t thats scary... all these fat people.... aaaagghhh.

burn 1000 cals on treadmill, drink a highly saturated glucose beverage and ill be ready to go in no time... like the energizer bunny... or any other bunny that you can think of for that matter...

[Pheena]

so how would the process of reproducing (having kids) work then?

if Sexuality is the desire of have sex and experience, then when you decide you want to have kids, what leads you to that decision? the desire to experience something, right? so is that another form of Kaam? wanting to have kids not necessarily for sex, but for having kids?

then does this make having kids wrong?

Desire to be with God, Desire to have Sex, Desire to have children are not the same. Altho it is the same Desire, but it takes different directions.

You can direct this desire in any direction you choose, such as desire to do Simran. There is another factor which we should include is 'Want' and 'Need'. I Want to be with God, I Want to have sex. Desire is a type of Fantasy, I Desire many things. Want is the direct aim to acheive a task or an objective. They may sound the same, and can even be interchanged but provide different interpetations of ones mind.

3 Ways to look at this

I Desire to have Kids. I Want to have Kids. I Need to have Kids.

that is the different manifestations. The desperation of Need is more severe than the intensity of Desire. The common thing is " I " The Desire, Want and Need is for I and I = Ego.

That is the Kaam that Guru ji takls about. Kaam as in Desire of I, I, I, Me, Me, Me. that is the Illness, that is the Vikaar. Ego and then Desire for Ego.

In Asaa the Vaar, Haumay Deerug Raog hai, Daru bhe es Maa-hey.

Ego is a serious illness, but the Medicine is also within it.

Sant Singh ji Maskeen transled this Shabad as it become Medicine when we aim this Ego for our Good. I Want/Desire to go to the Gurudwara, I want to do simran. The Ego and its desires have taken a new direction.

I don't think Desiring children is wrong, just as desiring to be with God is not wrong. Altho it is Desire that is the driving force in both of the decision. But then one must ask the question, the aim of this Desire is directed towards what, Where is this desire going to take me? That is where one determines whether this desire/Want is wrong or not.

I hope that mades sense. if it confused you even more, just ignore it.

[Sukhi]

it made sense. but it just makes it more confusing to decide whether having kids is right or wrong. u can argue that if u really need to have a child, then you can adopt one. which is probably one of the best things to do since there are so many homeless children in need of love and support.

and what is the real need for having kids? what justification can there be for having a child?

[HeyDudesWassup]

^^ The souls that are meant to come into this world will, regardless of your participation. I probably confused you even more

[Pheena]

it made sense. but it just makes it more confusing to decide whether having kids is right or wrong. u can argue that if u really need to have a child, then you can adopt one. which is probably one of the best things to do since there are so many homeless children in need of love and support.

and what is the real need for having kids? what justification can there be for having a child?

Have kids out of Love. Love should be the reason for pro-creation. Don't confuse love with the 'lovey-dovey' stuff. Bring a Life into this world that is the product of an Unconditional Love between 2 individuals. That life which is the product of such Love will become a Light of Love.

I dont see any real reason to have kids except out of Love. You can have kid after kid, but if you cannot provide Love for them, then what purpose does it serve to have mulitple kids? Have Children not for the sake of Having them cuz you are suppose to or that is the norm. Pro-create so you can bring a soul, a life into this world which will the beacon of Love for the world. Bring some Light into the darkness that covers the world. Let the children born thru us become that seed which will germinate the tree of Love.

Your mother had you...Perhaps you should ask her why she had you. I will ask my mother tonight why she had me and i'll share with you what she says .

[Dynamic_Banda]

lol Pheena I asked my mother and all I got was a slap and the reply I wish I hadnt, now stop beating up ur sister.

[Amrikingh]

i think its good to have kids, becoz its gives another soul a chance to master their life and join with parmatma

[SikhWannaBe]

So what about all the kids that are not conceived out of love but another reason? Where does that place them? Adoption is definately the best way to spread love, having your own biological child can only be described as selfish where one knows that there are many children in need of your parenting services.

Most of the reasons I believe people have children are selfish. They either do it involuntarily to spread their genes, or purposefully to live vicariously through their young and finally because they are too ignorant to understand how to use contraceptives. The third world has an added example of having families to facilitate in production and family survival.

It is very rarely, that I have met parents that are bringing children into the world to create a person free of bias and filled with love for humanity. Point being adoption rules.

[Black Goddess]

Good points Sikhwannbe, I agree wholeheartedly.

[Pheena]

It places them where they are placed. Everyone has their cirumstances and reasoning of having children.

[Sukhi]

well... isn't this interesting...

okay... we're supposed to have kids out of love. but the expression of love requires sexuality to a certain extent. but that's not possible because sexuality is a form of Kaam.

what's a Kaam-less-individual-wanna-be to do?!

really speaking though, i'm still grappling with the entire "have a child because of Love" thing. i think SWB's right in saying that we have kids for a lot of reasons and it's hardly ever for Love.

so how do we reconcile this with our initial attraction to being Kaam-ful people?

HDW, u did confuse me more, but i think what you're saying has some merit. those souls that must come into this world for whatever reason, will do so, whether it's through Love or lust.

but in order for those souls to enter the world, isn't lust needed to get things going?

it's the link between Kaam, sexuality and love that's confusing at this moment. who wants to shed some hair on this?

[Black Goddess]

Osho has said that at the point of orgasm you completely lose yourself, cease to be (like I will when dynamic kills my chicken), and you glimpse God, you realise him when you dont exist..so I guess Nirvana is a continuous orgasm..oooh..

Sukhi..good point fellow nuttee..doesnt seem to make sense to me either..unless some Kaam is actually good for ya..Im gona be killed for this arent I? *ducks*

[Guest Javanmard]

It is interesting to notice that in Sanskrit one of the words for orgasm is anand...

[Dynamic_Banda]

Note: If you are underage first of all this may not be the best topic to be reading and this post may offend, I place this disclaimer prior to typing anything as I have no intention of putting offensive material online however what I say may be interpritated in such a way. If you cant hold your load then dont read any further, Thanx in advance.

ALso while reading this look at the hidden meanings and see what Im trying to say, just like shaka pointed out one word which may be interpritated as blissful and god like can actually be as simple as an orgasm (which is also blissful and god life.. lol)

Bhrama, Vishnu and Shib are all forms of the same mother which is an element of the god which i cant be bothered to talk about because no keyboard in creation or non creation could have enough keys to even attempt to comprehend that uncomprehendable being so lets just stick to the limited essences of god.

Each of those three have their own purposes and reasons. each works hand in hand in opposite ways but hand in hand. if both ur legs worked in exactly the same way u would be hopping like a kangeroo but I guess evolution or God or something decided it was more efficient that the legs work against each other in opposite ways when one goes forward the other goes back when one pushs the other pulls (well kinda)

In the same way sex has its different manifestations. You got the bhrma sex its all peacefull no essense of destruction or whatever nice and calm.. (hence bhrma has no weapons and carries books, which he may have used as weapons thats debatable in the shastarvidya section of this forum ) That sex is the sex of creation the type some people believe is all we should have.

However there are still vishnu sex and shiv sex.

Vishnu sex is the stuff which people do for fun just to keep a good relationship active, it involves dressing up in 24 different forms (if your into that kinda thing) you got the narsingha sex which involves scratching and biting (not having sex while creating sarbloh.info.. lol thats another narsingha.)

you have the slow sex like kachh avtar (the tortuoise)

You have the compassionate sex (budh avtar) in which you wish for nothing but infact achieve everything.. (lol its also the lazy persons sex)

Ram sex is like hide and seek, invovles abit of roleplay

Krishan sex can be either the young krishan which means playful and involves more then one woman. or if you concentrate on the older krishan then its dharmic sex, sex because its your duty to your wife or partner. lol

then comes kalki sex and mehdi sex, this isnt actually sex because it hasnt happened its the build up to sex the sex which is expected but never comes. The special sex which when it does occur will turn the whole world upside down and the gods will decend from the heavens etc etc.. lol

Now we have the shib Sex

The sex with a destructive nature, this kinda sex is in no way the kind of sexual union that shiv ji the diety had, it is just a type of sex which has the same name based on the common characteristics of shib and shib sex

This is sex which ends all sex. not very productive and definatly not advised especially those who exist in this manifest world its best to stick to creating or sustaining, to destroy well its a quick way in ending any relationship. Thats enough said. Its probably also against the law.

This kinda sex can be performed with yakshinis in the higher conciousness or after life.

Kaam is like karam its all dependant on the intention.

[Guest Javanmard]

Well according to Freud sex is the driving force behind everything...

[Narsingha]

Well according to Freud sex is the driving force behind everything...

I believe the Duracell bunny may prove you wrong there

[Pheena]

well... isn't this interesting...

okay... we're supposed to have kids out of love. but the expression of love requires sexuality to a certain extent. but that's not possible because sexuality is a form of Kaam.

that is not So! That is what we have been told, or have been influenced by. Sexuality has NOTHING to do with Love.

what's a Kaam-less-individual-wanna-be to do?!

really speaking though, i'm still grappling with the entire "have a child because of Love" thing. i think SWB's right in saying that we have kids for a lot of reasons and it's hardly ever for Love.

Yes he does make sense, and he simply posted what the reality is, i simply posted what the options are. I asked my mother why she gave birth to me, she said, because she wanted a child. That is all she said, but in those words i felt her love behind it. She did not have me for the world, but for her Love that wished to express to her offspring. So whether it was the love of both my mother father or not, but i know for certain that her Love was present because she expresses it everyday in her yelling, in her hugs, in her anger. It cannot escape her.

so how do we reconcile this with our initial attraction to being Kaam-ful people?

but in order for those souls to enter the world, isn't lust needed to get things going?

it's the link between Kaam, sexuality and love that's confusing at this moment. who wants to shed some hair on this?

Lust is not necessary, Sex is necessary. In order for you keep warm, do you need to set your house on fire, or just the fireplace?

Kaam is Sexuality. Love has nothing to do with Sex or Sexuality. Where Love grows Sex dissappears.

[Narsingha]

Love has nothing to do with Sex or Sexuality. Where Love grows Sex dissappears.

Why does everything have to be so black and white all the time?

...life is colourful, varied, exotic if you want it to be (unless you wish to become a impotent fanatic and castrate yourself of the richness of creation).

Why not learn to balance everything, and rather than take everything to logical extremes.

We are not binary creatures.

[Guest]

Love has nothing to do with Sex or Sexuality. Where Love grows Sex dissappears.

If pheena is talking about love towards Vahiguroo /Guru Maharaj then I agree with him.

Because when you are in smaaaaaadh roop ie- Nirvakalp Smaaadhi then you don't even know your existence, don't even know your family, time, place, sexual thoughts are way out of imagination.