Does listening to non-raag Kirtan effect spirtuality?

[gsingh00]

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[Guest Javanmard]

gurpreet singh said:

This pattern or rhythm is also a raag

Ok a few basic notions:

melodic structure= raag

rythm= taal

rythm is NOT raag, nor is it part of it!

and when it's recited it's meter which of course has NOTHING to do with raags. Recitation of the raag is done in meter NOT raag!!! Raag has nothing to do with rythm! Rythm is taal! Get it?

Gurpreet Singh don't tell a musician what rythm and melody are! You obviously have no clue about musicology...

btw I play sitar and have studied classical music for 12 years including musicology so please keep your lessons for some 12 year old kid!

[antinang]

i know nothing on this subject, however, I was always under the impression that raag was the mood, do u not think it is possible that a loving kirtani of guroo sahib could be in the mood of the shabad? I find alot of times, that with these fully raag trained kirtanis,they are not really in that mood of the shabad, they are merely playing the raag, not feeling it. You decide what Guroo sahib would have liked more, someone actually feeling in that mood of the shabad, or someone playing the tune?

[gsingh00]

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[Guest Javanmard]

Well you stick to what Bhai Avtar Singh says and stick to what Maharaj has written...

[fatehsingh]

Isn't it great when people with absolutely no knowledge about the subject, most wonderfully those who actually admit of knowing nothing, share their 'priceLESS' thoughts about the subject?

Here are 'Sikhs' who say they believe in Bani as Guru but yet outrightly defy it in public. Where are those 'Respect for Granth Sahibji' campaigners/wedding crashers now?

[Guest Javanmard]

Absolutely Fatehsingh! When Maharaj writes "Raag Gauri" I wonder why people suddenly decide that it's actually not needed or that it sounds better in some Bollywood tune?

People justify their own ignorance and lazyness by finding some excuses like "oh it's not really necessary" or "don't be a fanatic". When my Guru writes "Raag Gauri" it's because he knows better than me, Bhai Avtar Singh or Sant Attar Singh that this particular bani HAS to be singed in Raag Gauri. Amazing how people just think they know better than Maharaj and decide to change stuff!

Where is the respect for Maharaj then?

Then people come with the most stupid excuse:" Oh it doesn't matter Maharaj knows we love him even if we play the wring tune"

A father always loves his children but when he tells them "Play this bani in Raag Gauri my son!" and the son starts playing it on some other tune, the son will still get a slap for it!

Not playing in raags is clear disobedience!

[drawrof]

Actually, although bhai avtar singh ji's name hasn't been tarred, let me share a story (and I have audio evidence of it) that he shared. He was at the scarborough gurdwara when he came at the turn of this century.

He said he was downstairs and heard the kirtanee singing the shabad to a famous hindi tune. As he was walking up the stairs, he saw a young lad in his 20's come down and he was singing the appropriate hindi lyrics to that filmi tune. Bhai avtar singh stopped him and said " betay you're truthful and sacha"...the young guy was stunned (and didn't know how to respond because he didn't understand why he was told that). " bhai avtar singh nodded his head and smiled and said....what you are singing in your heart is coming out on your tongue"; "what the kirtanee is singing in his heart is being masked by gurbani"...........

I also have a recording of bhai gurcharan singh (elder brother of bhai avtar singh ji) mentioning how people don't do mehnat *the work* required to singh dhrupadh or other old bandishes and that it is with great admiration that he was commending the kirtanee's (ajit singh matlaashi, and darshan singh bijli) for their effort....mind you this recording is at least 30 years old! He touched on how the old vidvhaans would meet each other and get laha from each other's kirtan

When the state of what maharaaj has proscribed has deteriorated so much that it no longer has that same eminence it once had, then people will try to make sure the seeds aren't spoiled. Hence, I understand why in appropriate circumstances, certain mahapurakhs suggested people sing according to dharanas etc. The musical grandeur of older times was lost, ie. the reet that bhai avtar singh ji sings "ek ratee bin ek ratee ke" is a creation of darbar sahib....imagine that! an institution where people enjoin on single minded focus on god, where their souls are spiritually lifted, where one can sit where they want, how they want, and not be questioned as to who they are....and it being the pinnacle of musical tradition; it being a benchmark of success...it being the area of ultimate expression!

I do not doubt the bhagtee and contribution of sant attar singh mastuana wallay or baba ishar singh ji rarray sahib wallay or any other mahapurakh for that matter; nor do I condemn them in any way!

I believe the khalsa, the sadh sangat is a manifestation and expression of waheguru's saguna saroop. That being the case, individually we are all given capacities to express our gifted divine qualities (take a flower garden for example, no 2 flowers are the same, but there is something unique about each which makes it special...put those all together and you have a synergetic effect that makes everyone go 'wow'...similarly, mahapurakhs play their roles and have their own contributions and show us how we can reach our capacities as well....only guru nanak's jyot is the pure nirankar saroop; and the expression of nirankar in its complex matrix of nature would be best expressed by music, mehnat, pyaar, instruments of the highest calibre...)...my 2 cents

[antinang]

I'm actually going to requote what I said earlier, because it seems you only took notice to the first 6 words I wrote, as Sikhs atleast have the humility to just have a listen to your veer. Nowhere did i say that raag isnt important, I agree we should always use the raag that Guroo Sahib told us to use for that shabad. However what I was trying to say is, that if raag is mood, why is it confined to a tune? I'm not in favour of bollywood tunes in the least, those who sing them are the same as some raagis that show of all the raag they can do with all the saaa reee gaa sa re ga ma pa etc. however isnt a simple tune filled with bairaag for a shabad in jaijawanti, which is the raag expressing bairaag exactly what Guroo sahib wanted?

Also, if someone had NO raag training whatsoever, but out of pure love for guroo sahib they wanted to sing a shabad, and while singing the shabad was encompassing the exact mood of the raag the shabad was written in, are you going to stop them?

i know nothing on this subject, however, I was always under the impression that raag was the mood, do u not think it is possible that a loving kirtani of guroo sahib could be in the mood of the shabad? I find alot of times, that with these fully raag trained kirtanis,they are not really in that mood of the shabad, they are merely playing the raag, not feeling it. You decide what Guroo sahib would have liked more, someone actually feeling in that mood of the shabad, or someone playing the tune?

[Guest SAdmin]

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[Guest Javanmard]

If you can't sing in raag it's pretty simple: do seva in the langar or clean people's shoes! Amazing how it's the young ones who want to go on stage without raag training and the old ones serve the langar...

[Guest SAdmin]

I found very good article on Gurmat Sangeet. I hope everyone reads it. http://www.gurmatsangeetproject.com/Pages/...rmatSangeet.asp

[Guest SAdmin]

I think the main issue here is that everything is coming to desire that as long as we do everything under the influence of love then it is ok to go on. Well it is your Guru who has made great efforts to introduce "GurMat- Sangeet" so why not show a true dedication to your Guru and learn it? I won't take the extreme route and discourage Sikhs who sing Gurbani without knowing the true Gurmat Sangeet but isn't it time to restore the true "Gurmat" than what we consider will suit Gurus just because it comes with love?

Gurus don't want anything from you because Guru always gives. Guru has given you Gurmat-Sangeet, so don't take it as another Ragas/Tunes but Guru's blessing and be a true disciple by learning Gurmat Sangeet.

Let's not go around and try to match everything with love. Let's learn and make our Guru proud of his Sikhs. I hope no one got offended with my post if anyone did please forgive me.

[Niranjana]

Personally, I wouldn't consider these questions to be the same. I consider kesh and kirpan to be ESSENTIAL for every amritdhari sikh, however, I think raag is useful but not essential (refer to nmy last post about anand sahib for why).

Gurpreet Singh, you are certainly entitled to your personal opinions, however it is plain to see the similarity in the questions - in fact, I would even go as far to say, whereas Kesh and Kirpan (etc) are part of a largely oral tradition and practice with supporting non-Gurbani texts to confirm this practice, the measure of Raag is stipulated in Gurbani itself, in order words, as a Sri Mukhvak - which you regard to be "useful but not essential" which is exactly what non-Keshadharis use to describe the Kakkars - "useful but not essential"...so perhaps think again over the similarity between the two statements.

In any event, as demonstrated clearly in the foregoing posts, it does seem as Fateh Singh aptly described, the gross lack of simple understanding relating to our musical traditions is clearly replete in the comments of those like you, who love to nonetheless 'educate' others on the subject.

[Guest]

I wonder what's tsingh and amritpal singh amrit approach on this topic.

tsingh and amrit veer ji please post your views, everyone else has posted their views on this topic.

[Guest]

anyone care to explain this?

http://www.sikhnet.com/sikhnet/discussion....8c!OpenDocument

Waheguru ji ka Khalsa

Waheguru ji ki Fateh

Whether one should sing gurbani in rag or not is made clear by Guru Ramdas ji in

Shakke Chhant that nowadays we sing in Asa Di Var. Guru ji says

Koee Gavay Raagi Naadi Bedi Bahu Bhant Kar Nahin Hari Hari Bheeje Ram Raje

If any (classical music) singer, instrumentalist, or reciter of Ved Mantras sings invarious ways, God is not impressed.

Jinah Antar Kapat Vikar Hai, Tina Roe Kia Keeje

Those who have deceit and evil ideas within what would they achieve by shedding

(crocodile)tears.

The final line of the Shakka goes thus

Jinah Nanak Gurmukh Hirda Suddh Hai Hari Bhagati Hari Leeje

O Nanak, those Gurmukhs whose mind is cleansed God Himself accepts their Bhagati

to God

Similarly in Mahala 1, Vaar Sarang, Guru Nanak Dev ji says

Na Bheeje Raagi Naadi Bed. Na Bheeje Surti Giani Jog

God is not impressed by singing (as classical musicians do), nor by instrumentalists, or by reciters of Ved Mantras.

The sabad continues listing the various physical action and/or rituals which do not impress God, such as, pilgrimages with no clothes on, giving charity to earn merit, sitting quiet outside towns, to die fighting as brave warriors (read militant sikhs).

In the last line Guru ji says

Lekha Likhiai Man Ke Bhaaye, Nanak Bheeje Saache Naaye

What is recorded in one?s merit account is the love (for God) in one?s mind. O Nanak (God) is impressed by truthfull submission to His Name.

The implication of this is that mere singing for the sake of singing whether in classical or folk tradition is immaterial. Unless mind sheds its arrogance and ego and submits in passion of love for Him singing or playing insturments does not matter.

Incidentally, Guru ji adopted the styles of singing current in their lifetimes whether folk or classical to convey the divine message to the masses. That is why we see both classical Ragas as well as folk styles adopted in Gurbani. For instance, The Vaars are folk styles sung by bards and enjoyed by masses to this day as are the Chhants, Alaahunian, Bara Mahan etc.

Regarding Japu ji the style is the Vaar style since we have Pauris (38 in number)and Salok (Pawan Guru Pani Pita..by Guru Angad Dev ji) analogous to the pauris in other vaars. Some scholars believe that Japuji was also

called Nirankar di Vaar in earlier times. The Vaars were sung by Dhaadis (those who sang accompanied by a Dhadd, a small hand drum). The singing was interspersed by reciting Shaloks to summarise or explain the theme of the subject being sung in the Pauris. In the 22 Vaars in Guru Granth Sahib the Saloks were inserted mostly by Guru Arjan Dev ji later making appropriate choice from the pool of Saloks of the respective Guru jis. The Salok, Aad Sach Jugadi Sach after the Mool Mantra, it is believed was inserted by Guru Arjan Dev ji during compilation of the Adi Beer and taken from

Sukhmani Sahib. The Saloks that could not be accomodated in the Vaars were given

under the title Salok Vaaran Te Vadhik (Saloks that are additional to those given in the Vaars).

The word Kirtan came into popular use only after the times of Guru Nanak Dev ji it seems. Guru Nanak Dev ji mostly used the pharase Keerat Akheeaye or Keerat Gavahu in Gurbani and used word Keertan just only once (Maru Mahala 1). Whereas the most frequent use of this word is made by the Mahala 5, 4, and 3 in that order.

The conclusion is that Guru ji emphasised the devotion and love for the almighty which certainly is deeper while singing passionately whether in folk or classical style rather than getting bogged down in the subtleties and details of different classical ragas. It may be added that this distinction between classical and folk Indian music developed only when the Mughal court patronised that which came to be called classical while left the folk style to the Bhats, Sants, Dhadis and Guru jis to use as a medium to be with

the masses as Neechan Andar Neech Jati Wadian Siun Kia Rees.

Humbly

To remain the charan Dhoor of the Sadh Sangat

Serjinder Singh

[fatehsingh]

Please don't quote me on anything. I commented upon the 'debate' itself. This is just like the 'meat eating', 'RaagMala', 'Dasam Granth' and various other issues that for someone like me seems to be a complete waste of time and energy and quite frankly unbelievable that there are Sikhs who are not able to find answers to such fundamental questions.

[drawrof]

He's given an opinion,

here is my opinion

"bhog mein bhogi"; is it fair to conclude that guru sahib is saying we should shag? further, I can argue that anyone who doesn't shag isn't allowing god to experience bliss in creation.

[tSingh]

Hmm, my opinion. Well, this is a bit tricky. On the one hand, every effort should be made to try and support the re-emergence of shudh kirtan maryada and no exceptions should be made. That I agree with, and I can listen to nothing other than raag kirtan myself, particularly only the regal Bhai Avtar Singh Ji.

BUT on the other hand, I despise any elitist notions that a simple Sikh with great sharda and pyar should be castigated for not singing in the correct raag, or that such an attitude were to develop to such a point wherein everyday-Sikhs felt they couldn't engage with gurbani as kirtan. I think this also requires an acceptance that Sikhi works on different levels for different people and that for more simple folk, simple shabads with a bit of katha over the top is very important to them at a functional level. For example, listening to Bhai Baldeep Singh, at times he puts so much emphasis on the dhrupad aspect that I have absolutely no idea what hes singing (swinging his arms around like a Dagar brother further distracts me - such a contrast to his more spiritually mature and dignified uncle). Anyone who has sung kirtan in sangat knows that it evokes ras and bhav much stronger. Shouting and hyperventilating waheguru over the top generally doesn't help (hehe), but kirtan sung by the sangat allows engagement with gurmat at a deeper level than usual for them. I would be saddened to see this no longer be the case. Now I mean no disrespect here, but I can't imagine the sangat trying to keep up with 'Jaghardang Nargaradang' by the Namdhari duo.

I think the crucial issue is the context in which it is performed. If it is performed in maharaj's darbar by kirtani it MUST be in raag at the very least with tanti saaj maryada. If it is however for the purpose of prachaar, some compromise can be made to the extent that the basic raag should be adhered to but without anything more to allow the sangat to sing along.

I think the reverse danger also exists that we get to a point wherein Shabad Kirtan loses its distinctiveness. Take someone like Bhai Samund Singh ji Raagi, such a beautiful style, highly charged with ras and bhav, immediately moving, yet relatively little emphasis on bol-taans or 'serious' khyaal. in contrast, Bhai Baldeep Singh Ji (again, bless him) seems to place more emphasis on mimicking and justifying his mimicry of Dagarvani dhrupad than his uncle's style (which is said to be the traditional approach). At a recent raag festival held in the UK Bhai Baldeep Singh attended and performed. I liked it, but his performance was more like a lecture with exemplification (which caused quite a few complaints I'm told). The other major dhrupadi there was Ustad Bahauddin Dagar Ji who performed on the rudra vina. He essentially knocked Bhai Baldeep Singh in his talk he gave by stating that he and his father generally played one raag and tried to master it rather than learning a bit kacchi and singing lots of raags on a stage. It was clear what he was getting at! I think that is the reverse danger, haumai and too much focus on individual skill. I know haumai exists among kirtani presently, but the focus is still on the shabad. My concern is that in the future (admittedly, a long way off) this could be the case. Anyone who has read the lives of the great gayakis of the last century know how much haumai some of them had and the lengths they went to to try and do each other over.

BUT first things first. My view is that Kirtani in the presence of maharaj, unless it is for the purposes of prachaar, should perform in raag with tanti saaj maryada kirtan.

Just my gareebi thoughts.

[Guest]

great post tsingh veer ji,

BUT first things first. My view is that Kirtani in the presence of maharaj, unless it is for the purposes of prachaar, should perform in raag with tanti saaj maryada kirtan.

I fully agree with this part here, it shows not everything is black and white in sikhi,, always have area for exceptions.

[Guest Javanmard]

There can only be exceptions when room for it has been indicated by Maharaj himself. Maharaj has indicated the raags himself and there is hence no room whatsoever to play kirtan it in anything other than the raags indicated! If you can't sing or play raags then do some other seva you're good at.

[tSingh]

Baba Ishar Singh Rarewale performed without raag. The consequence of him doing so truly allowed so many individuals to become inspired by the Guru's teachings. I personally doubt that if he had performed as Bhai Avtar Singh does it would not have made his bachans quite so involving for the sangat. If he had not been allowed to perform in that way, would that restriction of 'beadbi' outweigh the benefit of so many engaging with the Guru's teachings? In my mind it doesn't because of simple acceptance of a diversity of levels within the sangat.

I think this 'hukam of maharaj' argument is an important one. I recognise that Sri Japuji Sahib and Guru Amar Das expressly state in Gurbani that one should get up at amritvela. Now, personally I have to reconcile that some people are more nominal in their practice of Sikhi, and that they SHOULD get up and meditate but probably don't. I repeat they SHOULD.

In the process of adopting and adhering to Sikhi they will gradually develop some form of constancy and start meeting that hukam. Likewise, I feel that for those who are trying to raise their nominal level of practice I feel that they SHOULD and WILL appreciate Raag Kirtan the more they are exposed to it. From what I have seen, the initial spark of love is ignited in some sangat through sangat kirtan and prachaar. This very simple style therefore should be modified to adhere to the basics of the raag. There is a difference between shudh raag kirtan maryada, and playing in raag. For example, Bhai Nirmal Singh Raagi sings in raag but necessarily is an accomplished raagi. So likewise if prachaar is being done in say raag basant, then the raag can be nominally adhered to without trying to make the sangat imitate hitting 3rd octave meends and bol-taans! Simple!

Now let me be clear, I am not trying to compromise the hukam. I am making a case for different levels of raag kirtan. And like I said before, the tune should be in the raag specified, however the sophistication with which it is performed must vary in the case of prachaar through sangat kirtan.

If we are to become gurmukhs, we have a whole lot more hukams from maharaj on what is required from Gurbani itself. I would never say 'a Gurmukh doesn't have to get up at amritvela', likewise I would never say Shabad Kirtan should not be performed in raag. However, I recognise that on the uptake of Sikhi in a set context these maybe more nominally practiced.

From personal experience, I have met Sikhs who simply turn off shudh raag kirtan yet break into tears when Bhai Niranjan Singh sings, and I know why. They simply do not really understand the taals and reet of these shudh raag shabads. the only way they will is through greater exposure. Thus it is the duty of Gurdwaray to have kirtani perform tanti saaj raag kirtan.

I hope that clarifies what I am saying.

[Niranjana]

tsingh - I note your points, particularly on Amritvela and certainly second them, however whilst the topic concerns specifically "does non-raag kirtan effect spirituality" and for that purpose your comments are spot on - my issue with all of this are the numerous groups, organisations, smagams, jathas etc etc which ALL simultaneously claim to be the ONE and TRUE upholder of "TAT GURMAT MARYADA" - the pristine and original form of Sikhi - and implement 1001 supposed maryadas on eating, clothes, exercise, social circles and activities and so on in name of GURMARYADA, largely based on a the opinion of one or two individuals or non-gurbani texts - that in itself doesn't necessarily make it wrong - however, the key point is that Gurbani itself they are happy to ignore as "something that is helpful but not mandatory" but I guess walking around with a white hazooria is the most mandatory thing in the world and heaven forbid that it be orange (let alone you wearing a suit and shirt!!!) these items all REALLY determine one's spirituality don't they.

To echo Fateh Singh, I personally find it a sad state of reality that we have all these "Tat Gurmat" Maryada claims from the "Chardikala Singhs" of today who love to beat down the Namdharis for their unacceptance of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee as Partak Guru, yet they themselves commit numerous sins and crimes in denying the bani of both the Sri Guru Granth Sahib and the Sri Dasam Granth Sahib be it Raagmala, Bhagat Bani, Charitropakhyan, Chandi Paath or what have you and at the same time they love to preach to all and sundry about the lifestyle and "CULTURE" (a culture that they clearly invented) of Sikhi...

[tSingh]

I absolutely agree and look forward to the day wherein it becomes unthinkable to perform kirtan in anything but the raag specified. I don't for one minute accept that raensabhai constitutes prachaar for the less enlightened since as you state, those performing it claim to tbe the pinnacle of what Sikhi aspires to.

[tSingh]

And what a sight to see, this morning on etc punjabi, Raagi Narinder Singh Benaraswale performing kirtan. Always one step ahead of the rest on this issue (apart from the disgusting bus driver's style T-Series cassette he made), a few years back he was the only raagi I would watch withy a taanpura. Today, he was there with two taanpuras, a dilruba and tabla - no vajas. The first in over a hundred years? A great day for gurmat kirtan maryada.