How are these verses to be understood?

[amardeep]

Waheguru ji Ka Khalsa, Waheguru ji ki Fateh.

how does a "meat eating sikh" interpret these lines(and Kabirs Jees bani in genral):

jee-a baDhahu so Dharam kar thaapahu aDhram kahhu kat bhaa-ee.

You kill living beings, and call it a righteous action. Tell me, brother, what would you call an unrighteous action?

aapas ka-o munivar kar thaapahu kaa ka-o kahhu kasaa-ee. ||2||

You call yourself the most excellent sage; then who would you call a butcher? ||2||

man kay anDhay aap na boojhhu kaahi bujhaavahu bhaa-ee. You are blind in your mind, and do not understand your own self; how can you make others understand, O brother?

page 1103

and

Page 483, Line 5

ਰੋਜਾ ਧਰੈ ਮਨਾਵੈ ਅਲਹੁ ਸੁਆਦਤਿ ਜੀਅ ਸੰਘਾਰੈ ॥

रोजा धरै मनावै अलहु सुआदति जीअ संघारै ॥

rojaa Dharai manaavai alhu su-aadat jee-a sanghaarai.

You keep your fasts to please Allah, while you murder other beings for pleasure.

Devotee Kabir

and:

Page 1374, Line 12

ਕਬੀਰ ਜੋਰੀ ਕੀਏ ਜੁਲਮੁ ਹੈ ਕਹਤਾ ਨਾਉ ਹਲਾਲੁ ॥

कबीर जोरी कीए जुलमु है कहता नाउ हलालु ॥

kabeer joree kee-ay julam hai kahtaa naa-o halaal.

Kabeer, to use force is tyranny, even if you call it legal.

ਦਫਤਰਿ ਲੇਖਾ ਮਾਂਗੀਐ ਤਬ ਹੋਇਗੋ ਕਉਨੁ ਹਵਾਲੁ ॥੧੮੭॥

दफतरि लेखा मांगीऐ तब होइगो कउनु हवालु ॥१८७॥

daftar laykhaa maaNgee-ai tab ho-igo ka-un havaal. ||187||

When your account is called for in the Court of the Lord, what will your condition be then? ||187||

ਕਬੀਰ ਖੂਬੁ ਖਾਨਾ ਖੀਚਰੀ ਜਾ ਮਹਿ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਲੋਨੁ ॥

कबीर खूबु खाना खीचरी जा महि अम्रितु लोनु ॥

kabeer khoob khaanaa kheechree jaa meh amrit lon.

Kabeer, the dinner of beans and rice is excellent, if it is flavored with salt.

ਹੇਰਾ ਰੋਟੀ ਕਾਰਨੇ ਗਲਾ ਕਟਾਵੈ ਕਉਨੁ ॥੧੮੮॥

हेरा रोटी कारने गला कटावै कउनु ॥१८८॥

hayraa rotee kaarnay galaa kataavai ka-un. ||188||

Who would cut his throat, to have meat with his bread? ||188||

ਕਬੀਰ ਗੁਰੁ ਲਾਗਾ ਤਬ ਜਾਨੀਐ ਮਿਟੈ ਮੋਹੁ ਤਨ ਤਾਪ ॥

कबीर गुरु लागा तब जानीऐ मिटै मोहु तन ताप ॥

kabeer gur laagaa tab jaanee-ai mitai moh tan taap.

Kabeer, one is known to have been touched by the Guru, only when his emotional attachment and physical illnesses are eradicated.

as i have read, kabir was a strict vegetarian. how could his verses be included in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Maharaj, if sikhi promotes meat-eating?

[Maha Singh]

Maybe you should become a Kabirpanthi then

[amardeep]

the verses are included in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Maharaj so i can not just ignore them, as they were specificly singled out by Guru Arjan Dev Maharaj himself.

[Kam1825]

i take them as you have translated them Amardeep. As far as i am concerned they are words of the Guru and Not Kabir. The Eternal Guru Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji in saying these lines are warning one not to eat meat.

[Guest Javanmard]

Bhai Gurdas talking about the goodness of the goat with whom rich meals are prepared as well as the strings of the rabab is just air? Anyone who knows Sikh history knows that ALL Sikh Gurus are meat except for Guru Hari Rai.(See article by Sardar Kappor Singh on Randheer Singh).

The first verse is not about meat. It condemns religious fanafics who practise external piety yet forget compassion for their fellow human beings. Think of Guru Gobind Singh's remarks about Aurangzeb?

Bhagat Kabeer was indeed a vegetarian and there is indeed nothing wrong with that but his critique is here more about simple living rather than just meat.

[amardeep]

what about the second and third verse?

can you provide us with the verses from the Bhai Gurdass vaara?

i have also heard there is a vaara from Bhai Gurdass inwhich he narrates a story about a tiger eating a goat, where as the goat says "if i have been killed in this brutal way for eating grass only, then what will happen to you??" or something similar...

[Guest Javanmard]

From Bhai Gurdas dia Varan:

‘A elephants flesh is not edible for he is full of pride,

The lion is also full of pride of it’s strength so no one eats it either.

Humble is the goat it gains honour in the here after and this world.

In all celebrations it [its meat] is acknowledged, it [its meat] sanctifies religious gatherings and feasts.

Its meat is Pavitar [good/holy] for the householder and from its entrails [tendons] is string for instruments made that when they play attracts holy men in meditation.

From its skin are shoes made, which holy feet wear as they go to seek holy protection [to Guru].

With its skin are bound drums with which Kirtan [religious songs] is sung hence they [goat skin bound drums] give great comfort.

The holy gathering is coming into to the Guru’s protection.’

(‘Bhai Gurdas’, Vaar 23, Pauri 13)

‘On cutting a good tree a ‘Rabab’ [a traditional stringed musical instrument] was made.

A goat kid considering it self lowly [humble] had her flesh cut.

From her entrails were made into cords [for Rabab] and its Skin bound it [Rabab].

Coming into the holy congregation the note was struck [from Rabab].

Sound of Ragga emerged sung was Shabad [scripture].

Contemplating the all pervasive Satgur [true Enlightener] one attains the spontaneous state of absorption of God.’

(‘Bhai Gurdas’, Vaar 14, Pauri 15)

From the Sikh historical texts:

‘Said [Rai Bular], Nanak Ji forgive me with your permission should a goat be cooked? Baba said here is not a place to ask for permission. Whatever you desire do. Whatever God provides I eat. So Rai cooked a goat ---.’

(‘Twarikh Guru Khalsa’, by Giani Gian Singh Nirmala, 1894, Volume 1, Pa.93-94)

‘In the daytime, Guru with his wives from the hand of his mother ate. At night he, with his companions eat in the communal kitchen because at that time meat was served.’

(‘Twarikh Guru Khalsa’, by Giani Gian Singh Nirmala, 1894, Volume 1, Pa.790)

‘With four hundred warriors. With varieties of hawks, with many hunting dogs he goes to the jungle. This way the Guru [Hargobind] hunted.’

(‘Gurbilas Patshahi Shemi’, Koer Singh, 1718, Chapter 8, Pa.215)

Guru Gobind Singh's own words

‘When the responsibility of leadership came on me. Then I started to rule righteously. In the jungles I hunted many types of game. I killed bears, Roj [Nilgai/Indian antelope] and reindeers. Then I left my country. I went to Paunta. On the edge of the river Jamuna I resided. I saw many wonderful things there. There I picked out and killed many tigers. Roj and bears I hunted many ways.’

(‘Bachittar Natak’, Verse 1-3, Dasam Guru Granth Sahib)

Guru Nanak himself:

‘First in flesh you were conceived, in flesh you lived [Guru Ji refers to mothers womb]

Gaining life flesh was put into your mouth, your bones, skin and body is of flesh.

Taking you out of flesh, nipple of flesh was put in your mouth.

Your mouth is of flesh; tongue of flesh in flesh is life’s breath.

Growing up you get married, and bring home flesh.

From flesh is flesh created, of flesh are all relations.

Meeting the true Guru you would realise all this and appreciate the truth.

Ourselves we may try to understand but we will not says Nanak, wasted in use less talk is our time.

Saying “Flesh, Flesh!â€, the foolish Pundit argues he has no knowledge or understanding.

Which edible thing is flesh?

Which is vegetable?

In eating which is sin?

In ancient times rhinoceroses were killed and sacrifices made singing holy words [Guru Ji is alluding to the ancient, Hindu sacrifices which, were performed by the Pundit’s Vedic ancestors].

Forsaking flesh, holding his nose, he sits but at night eats human flesh [One interpretation of the above line is - The vegetarian Brahmin holds his nose saying flesh is evil yet in his mind he is considering how to devour all the wealth from the people. Second interpretation is - The vegetarian Brahmin sits holding his nose doing Pranayam (meaning Yogic breathing exercise) in his mind the hypocrite is planning how to devour all the wealth of the people.]

Taking hold of people he shows them his hypocrisy of vegetarianism yet he has no knowledge or understanding.

But Oh Nanak, how can you explain to a foolish man, having explained he does not understand?

Blind is he who acts blindly in his heart are no eyes [meaning the vegetarian Pundit acts fanatically because he does not think all things out, he lacks true wisdom.]

From combination of fathers sperm and mothers eggs are we born yet you do not eat meat and fish?

Man and woman when they get together at night it is flesh they put in their mouth and nibble at [in the original, ‘Mandu’ literally refers to nibbling lips hence it means nibbling flesh. See Mahan Kosh.].

In the womb of flesh were we conceived, from flesh we were born, vessels of flesh are we.

Having no knowledge and understanding the vegetarian Pundit considers himself wise.

Oh Pundit you say flesh from outside is bad but that of your own house is good [the Guru is asking the vegetarian Pundit if all flesh he considers evil then what of his own body which too is flesh.]

All life is born of flesh, in flesh does life reside.

He who’s Guru himself is blind they eat that which is not to be eat and abjure which is good to eat [meaning that they eat that which is earned illegitimately meaning through stealing, cheating, pimping etc., yet, meat which is good for you they abjure].

In the womb of flesh we were conceived, from flesh we were born, vessels of flesh are we.

In Hindu religious texts in Muslim religious texts in all four Yugas is meat mentioned being used.

In sacrifices and weddings is meat use to be found.

Women, men, kings and emperors, are all of flesh.

Pundit, you say these meat eaters who give you charity go to hell yet you who take their charity strangely goes to heaven, how odd.

Oh vegetarian Pundit! You do not understand yourself, yet you preach to the people, standing tall calling yourself wise.

Pundit, you know not from where flesh was born.

From water is all food created, from water is born sugarcane and cotton, all the three worlds are born of water.

Water says, “It is I who nurtures this world taking on many forms!†[Guru Ji is saying like all things Oh vegetarian Pundit, flesh also is born of water].

So Nanak says these words of wisdom, true renouncer are they who can renounce the temptations born of the pleasure of these worldly things born of water [the Guru concludes by saying not by renouncing flesh alone can one say they are a renouncer. Only when one is not tempted by the false pleasures, and desires of the world, is one a true renouncer].

(‘Adi Guru Durbar’, Pa.1289)

‘Singhs are always happy on eating meat. Warriors fill with enthusiasm on seeing the battlefield.’

(‘Adi Guru Granth Sahib, Pa.1180)

[gsingh00]

this is how all these meat augments always seem to end up

One person provides translations of bani which sem to give the impressionion that eating meat is wrong, and then another guy comes and provides translations of bani which seem to show that there is nothing wong with eating meat. Now how can both of these translations be correct, can bani ever contradict itself?

Instead of providing out of context or false translations which seem to oppose eachother why don't we try understanding what each tuk is saying.

[Guest SAdmin]

I think this translation will give clear picture. http://www.gurugranthdarpan.com/1374.html

[Guest Javanmard]

Prof. Sahib Singh...why not Randhir Singh straight away?

I didn't just quote bani but also history i.e. facts. And the fact is this: there is space in the Sikh tradition for veggies and non-veggies and none should impose a specific diet as THE Sikh diet on another. There is enough solid evidence that our Gurus ate meat but also that vegetarianism was current among some Sikhs. Vegetarinism remains a personam option and may for certain individuals play a role in their spirituality as may meat eating. Eating meat can bring about the destruction of brahmanical thought structures and be a healthy transgressive act liberating the mind of its limitations. It is hence to the individual and NOT to institutions to decide what diet is more suited. Bhai Gurdas being the key to gurbani his words are of primary importance and cannot be denied!

[Kam1825]

Javanmard i might be mistaken but believe i have a copy of a hukumnama of Sri Guru Hargobind Ji telling the sangat to abstain from meat. if this is true then all other things are irrelevant as the Guru has told all to abstain from meat and we should not eat it.

have you got any knowledge of this hukamnama my friend.

[Guest Javanmard]

Of course I have my friend as it is adressed to Kabul sangat. Now you probably know that hukamnamas and farmans given to a specific community are only valid for that particular community.That's how hukamnamas work. A Hukamnamah to a particular community has hence got no universal value and does NOT have the same weight as gurbani and the varan of Bhai Gurdas. That document is adressed to the Kabul Sangat and that sangat only.Strangely enough Bhai Gurdas mentions that Guru Harigobind used to hunt...Have you got any knowledge of that passage my friend?

[gsingh00]

Javanmard,

I see one fault in your arguement, you seem to be putting guru sahib on the same level as his sikhs, Guru Sahib could do whatever they wanted, however, as a Sikh we are bounded to the bani or guru sahib. The argument that Guru Sahib went hunting so it is fine for Sikhs to eat meat doesn't hold up just because u cant compare a Sikh to their Guru. We are bound to our faith that bani is 100% correct.

jee-a baDhahu so Dharam kar thaapahu aDhram kahhu kat bhaa-ee.

You kill living beings, and call it a righteous action. Tell me, brother, what would you call an unrighteous action?

aapas ka-o munivar kar thaapahu kaa ka-o kahhu kasaa-ee. ||2||

You call yourself the most excellent sage; then who would you call a butcher? ||2||

how can we continue to say bani is 100% true, if we concur with this translation but still say eating meat is alright?

[Guest Javanmard]

'Singhs are always happy on eating meat. Warriors fill with enthusiasm on seeing the battlefield.’

(‘Adi Guru Granth Sahib, Pa.1180)

The Singh follows has the rup and behaviour of his Guru but doesn't share the perfection. That's the main difference. Maharaj didn't hunt alone gurpreet_singh and the historical granth which I have quoted and which are used by even Damdami Taksal are a testimony to this, let alone all the other passages in favour of meat eating in gurbani I quoted and which are more numerous than these few lines by Bhagat Kabir.

But then again I am sure that for you abstaining from eating meat makes you holier than abstaining from telling lies such as "i believe javanmard is a muslim in disguise, who is trying to ulimatly convert us all to islam......" which you did recently. In doing so you are eating human flesh as the Qur'an says that those who tell lies about their fellow believers are like those eating the flesh of their own brothers! Let us suppose for a second that meat eating is a sin (which of course isn't), isn't calumny and telling lies about another Singh an even greater sin?

Your religion is in your stomach gurpreet_singh, mine is in my heart and breath...

[amardeep]

i find this interesting:

Page 1290, Line 4

ਮਾਸੁ ਪੁਰਾਣੀ ਮਾਸੁ ਕਤੇਬਂ​‍ੀ ਚਹੁ ਜੁਗਿ ਮਾਸੁ ਕਮਾਣਾ ॥

मासु पुराणी मासु कतेबीं चहु जुगि मासु कमाणा ॥

maas puraanee maas kaytaabeeN chahu jug maas kamaanaa.

Meat is allowed in the Puraanas, meat is allowed in the Bible and the Koran. Throughout the four ages, meat has been used.

if we read what Guru Nanak Dev ji says about these yugas:

Page 903, Line 1

ਤਿਹੁ ਜੁਗ ਕੇਰਾ ਰਹਿਆ ਤਪਾਵਸੁ ਜੇ ਗੁਣ ਦੇਹਿ ਤ ਪਾਈਐ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥

तिहु जुग केरा रहिआ तपावसु जे गुण देहि त पाईऐ ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥

tihu jug kayraa rahi-aa tapaavas jay gun deh ta paa-ee-ai. ||1|| rahaa-o.

The justice of the previous three ages is gone. One obtains virtue, only if the Lord bestows it. ||1||Pause||

Guru Nanak Dev

if the humans in the three past Yugas were just and perfekt and not affected by the sins of KaalYug, then why did they eat meat if it is a sin?

if they were perfect, and they ate meat, it must mean that eating meat is not a sin.right?

[Guest Javanmard]

the voice of reason...at last!

[drawrof]

u guyz dun kno nuffin'!

singhz run tingz...

thro ya kfc's in da binz....

get a mai tu rinz.....

D.C.S. iz all 'bout shinz...

cuz u geezaas kno nuffinz..

[gsingh00]

'Singhs are always happy on eating meat. Warriors fill with enthusiasm on seeing the battlefield.’

(‘Adi Guru Granth Sahib, Pa.1180)

The Singh follows has the rup and behaviour of his Guru but doesn't share the perfection. That's the main difference. Maharaj didn't hunt alone gurpreet_singh and the historical granth which I have quoted and which are used by even Damdami Taksal are a testimony to this, let alone all the other passages in favour of meat eating in gurbani I quoted and which are more numerous than these few lines by Bhagat Kabir.

But then again I am sure that for you abstaining from eating meat makes you holier than abstaining from telling lies such as "i believe javanmard is a muslim in disguise, who is trying to ulimatly convert us all to islam......" which you did recently. In doing so you are eating human flesh as the Qur'an says that those who tell lies about their fellow believers are like those eating the flesh of their own brothers! Let us suppose for a second that meat eating is a sin (which of course isn't), isn't calumny and telling lies about another Singh an even greater sin?

Your religion is in your stomach gurpreet_singh, mine is in my heart and breath...

once again I ask, by showing ...

'Singhs are always happy on eating meat. Warriors fill with enthusiasm on seeing the battlefield.’

(‘Adi Guru Granth Sahib, Pa.1180)

without providing another meaning for...

jee-a baDhahu so Dharam kar thaapahu aDhram kahhu kat bhaa-ee.

You kill living beings, and call it a righteous action. Tell me, brother, what would you call an unrighteous action?

aapas ka-o munivar kar thaapahu kaa ka-o kahhu kasaa-ee. ||2||

You call yourself the most excellent sage; then who would you call a butcher? ||2||

are you tring to infer that bani can contradict itself?

Also, when did I ever say I am against meat, or even that I am vegetarian? Did you jsut assume all of this? All I said in my last post was instead of making it look like bani contradicts itself, which i think is impossible, to look at the deeper meaning of the tuk and see what it is really trying to say.

And lastly, what does Taksaal have to do with anything?

[Kam1825]

Javanmard i have read the passage in the Bhai Gurdas Di Varan about the hunting by 6th Guru.

I know the Bedi Sants used to Hunt and Baba Mudhsudan Singh Ji also ate meat. This subject has a for and against and always will have.

You are alot more knowledgeable about the scriptures and resources bro about this sort of thing.

Can you also highlight your view on drugs namely cannabis and opium use from the scriptures to support or oppose the use of these recreational drugs by the nihang singh?

[Guest Javanmard]

Dear Kam1825,

the subject of wine, cannabis and opium is one I don't discuss publicly anymore. This forum is viewed by many youngsters and as an adult and as a scholar I carry a responsibility especially rearding such a delicate subject which has in most cases been misunderstood. For havig seen the damage caused among the UK youth by a simplistic understanding of the shahidi degh and wine issue I only discuss this issue now with grown adults with basic knowledge of gurbani and Indian civilisation on a private basis. We can continue this conversation via pm if you so wish.

Dear gurpreet_singh,

it is you who are seeing contradiction I am afraid and to be honest I have no wish to continue a debate with you after the disgusting lies you have spread about me on this forum.I hope you understand. The verse you quoted is more about the shift of value systems rather than a prohibition on meat.

[antinang]

and as a scholar

HAHAHAHAHAH thanks, that gave me the biggest laugh of the day!

hahahahah

[Guest Javanmard]

Glad I made you laugh antinang, looking forward to read your next academic article and listen to your lectures at university. Hopefully you'll be able to englighten me on colonial attitudes to gender identity in the light of late 19th century reformist movements, especially on the resurfacing of the napumslinga in Panch Khalsa Diwan and Randheerpanthi gender discourse.

[Guest SAdmin]

I think the link I posted from Guru Darpan translation clearly shows that Bhagat Kabir Ji showing religious hypocrisy in those verses.

[Kam1825]

javanmard could you pm me please and give my your views from scriptures re the use of drugs. Thanks

[akaali]

HAHAHAHAHAH thanks, that gave me the biggest laugh of the day!

hahahahah

JavanMard has published/publishing articles as we speak, and has done lectures in Univeristies 'antinang'. You probably do not even go to a university yet jugding by ur posts/behavouir on the board.