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Translation of Ram Raheem Puran Quraan please


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can someone translate and explain these verses to me:

"Pahein gahay jabtay tumray, tab tay kou aankh taray nahi aanyo.

Ram Rahim Puran Qoran anek kahay mut ek na maanyo.

Simarat Shastra Bed sabai bahu bhed kahai hum ek na jaanyo.

Sri Aspaan kripa tumri kar mai na kahyo Sabh toh bakhaanyo."

does it mean that Quran is false or?

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interpretations I can think of are

"Ram Rahim Puran Quran all have limitless meaning, but I dont follow any of their ways"

and

"Countless ppl say/speak Ram Rahim Puran Quran, but not one believes in the way"

"Countless ppl say/speak Ram Rahim Puran Quran, but I dont follow any of their ways"

sorry if im wrong...

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Gurfateh

It is at end of Ram Avtar perhaps.

ਸ੍ਵੈਯਾ ॥

स्वैया ॥

SWAYYA

ਪਾਂਇ ਗਹੇ ਜਬ ਤੇ ਤੁਮਰੇ ਤਬ ਤੇ ਕੋਊ ਆਂਖ ਤਰੇ ਨਹੀ ਆਨਿਯੋ ॥ ਰਾਮ ਰਹੀਮ ਪੁਰਾਨ ਕੁਰਾਨ ਅਨੇਕ ਕਹੈਂ ਮਤਿ ਏਕ ਨ ਮਾਨਿਯੋ ॥

पांइ गहे जब ते तुमरे तब ते कोऊ आंख तरे नही आनियो ॥ राम रहीम पुरान कुरान अनेक कहैं मति एक न मानियो ॥

O God ! the day when I caught hold of your feet, I do not bring anyone else under my sight; none other is liked by me now; the Puranas and the Quran try to know Thee by the names of Ram and Rahim and talk about you through several stories, but I do not accept any of their opinions;

ਸਿੰਮ੍ਰਿਤਿ ਸਾਸਤ੍ਰ ਬੇਦ ਸਭੈ ਬਹੁ ਭੇਦ ਕਹੈ ਹਮ ਏਕ ਨ ਜਾਨਿਯੋ ॥ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਅਸਿਪਾਨਿ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾ ਤੁਮਰੀ ਕਰਿ ਮੈ ਨ ਕਹਿਯੋ ਸਭ ਤੋਹਿ ਬਖਾਨਿਯੋ ॥੮੬੩॥

सिम्रिति सासत्र बेद सभै बहु भेद कहै हम एक न जानियो ॥ स्री असिपानि क्रिपा तुमरी करि मै न कहियो सभ तोहि बखानियो ॥८६३॥

The Simritis, Shastras and Vedas describe several mysteries of yours, but I do not agree with any of them. O sword-wielder God! This all has been described by Thy Grace, what power can I have to write all this?.863.

ਦੋਹਰਾ ॥

दोहरा ॥

DOHRA

ਸਗਲ ਦੁਆਰ ਕੋ ਛਾਡਿ ਕੈ ਗਹਿਯੋ ਤੁਹਾਰੋ ਦੁਆਰ ॥ ਬਾਂਹਿ ਗਹੇ ਕੀ ਲਾਜ ਅਸਿ ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਦਾਸ ਤੁਹਾਰ ॥੮੬੪॥

सगल दुआर को छाडि कै गहियो तुहारो दुआर ॥ बांहि गहे की लाज असि गोबिंद दास तुहार ॥८६४॥

O Lord ! I have forsaken all other doors and have caught hold of only Thy door. O Lord ! Thou has caught hold of my arm; I, Govind, am Thy serf, kindly take (care of me and) protect my honour.864.

ਇਤਿ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਬਚਿਤ੍ਰ ਨਾਟਕ ਗ੍ਰੰਥੇ ਰਾਮਾਇਣ ਸਮਾਪਤਮ ॥

इति स्री बचित्र नाटक ग्रंथे रामाइण समापतम ॥

BENIGN END OF THE RAMAYANA.

As per Gyani Bhag Singh Ambala,this is interpolated and he says by as prof that in one copy,it is at margine.

But that he does just to prove that whole RamAvtar is Anti Gurmat and this gives pro Gurmat feling but hight of hyporcy that Asipan or swrod headed is deemed as some incarnations by Anti Dasham Granth guys.

Ie interpolation done to make it look like pro Gurmat but that also as per them is Anti Gurmat.If we read such guys work,it is full of absurdity.And we get fed up by deeming them scholar at all.

Well das gives the crux.

After getting you/after getting to your feet.Since then no one was come under the eye/sight.Rama (as per Hindu),Raheem(as per Muslims)(about them) Puranas and Kuran say many views but not even one is followed(by me).

Samritis(diaries),Scriptures,Vedas(Scriptures) all say many secrets,but we do not know.REspected one with swrod hand,by your mercy doing/act,I do not say anything but all describe you.

After leaving all doors,went to your door.Keep respect intact,Oh sustainer of sense,as I am you slave.

Here Gobind is term refered to Akal and not to first Master.

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  • 5 months later...

can someone translate and explain these verses to me:

"Pahein gahay jabtay tumray, tab tay kou aankh taray nahi aanyo.

Ram Rahim Puran Qoran anek kahay mut ek na maanyo.

Simarat Shastra Bed sabai bahu bhed kahai hum ek na jaanyo.

Sri Aspaan kripa tumri kar mai na kahyo Sabh toh bakhaanyo."

does it mean that Quran is false or?

can anyone explain the apparent discrepancy between the above & the shabads below...

bedh kuteb kehuh math jhoothe jhoothaa jo n bichaarai [1350]

Do not say that the Vedas, the Bible and the Koran are false. Those who do not contemplate them are false.

kuraan kuteb dhil maahi kumaahee [1084]

Practice within your heart the teachings of the Koran and the Bible

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GUV If you take the meaning that "their are countless ram raheems puraans and quraans yet I do not follow their ways" then it may be similar to the ideas of the 3rd path found in Ugardanti, which is neither hinduism or Islam.

Meaning that your quoted bani wouldnt contradict the previous bani quotation. As in the Ugardanti (I believe) the other paths are not neglected or seen as lower just not the path that Maharaj desires to persue.

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  • 5 years later...

I believe it means that Puran says Ram and Quran says Rahim (which might say they are different Gods or many Gods -'Ram Rahim Puran Qoran anek kahay' where 'anek' stands for 'many'

But I don't believe in any difference (i.e. Ram, Rahim all mentioned by Puran, Quran are referred to one God/ God is one)

where 'mat' comes from 'mat bhed' (differentiating).

So Ram Rahim Puran Quran might say Parmatma are anek but I don't differentiate (mat bhed na karna) in any (Ram and Rahim are same)

It can't mean that Puran and Quran are wrong or saying 'Ram' or 'Rahim' is wrong because in gurbani, at so many places, Guru ji has referred to Parmatma as 'Khuda', 'Ram', 'Allah' Himself..

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  • 2 years later...

As far as I understand, it means, the holy scriptures as  Puranas, Quran give many names to Him.

But He Wahiguru, is beyond any words, languages, thoughts ... What words, languages, religions, dharams, mazabs were there?  When the Bani says, prior to His mauj of creating the creation, He was deeply absorbed within Himself, in His Shabad state.

Words make no diifference to Him. He is one thing, and His attributes are infinite, and each one of his Names, are but a tiny description of His inmense, infinite Mahanta

Just as writing the word light on a paper, or putting a big picture of the planet Sun in a dark room, will not dispel even one atom of the darkness at all.

In a similar way, Wahiguru, Akal Purukh, is Supra Conciouss Power or Energy, who is within each one of us in same measure.

Ram Ram karta sabh jag phirey, Ram na paaya  koee.The whole world goes on repeating Ram Ram, here and there, means repeating the names which can be uttered, written or read. But that Name, that Ram(not the son of king Dashrat), is something far much subtle than anything we can ever imagine about.

Saints have called that Supreme Power as Ram, because it is "ramaee huee " everywhere and every place. In Sikhee, that power is known as Naam or Shabad.

And according to the Bani, it is only by doing a particular jugtee or bhakti, by meditation or dhyan, known as Nam Simran, which makes Pargat that Akahnd Jot, within us, and ultimately we are absorbed or merged in that Light, becoming one with it.

This is sikhee, and this is  the only purpose of Sikhee.

Anything apart from it, is just our own misconception of the Reality, to which we want to limit it within the limited parameteres of our mind.

Sat Sree Akal.

Edited by harsharan000
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Ram Ram karta sabh jag phirey, Ram na paaya  koee.The whole world goes on repeating Ram Ram, here and there, means repeating the names which can be uttered, written or read. But that Name, that Ram(not the son of king Dashrat), is something far much subtle than anything we can ever imagine about.

And according to the Bani, it is only by doing a particular jugtee or bhakti, by meditation or dhyan, known as Nam Simran, which makes Pargat that Akahnd Jot, within us, and ultimately we are absorbed or merged in that Light, becoming one with it.

​ ਰਾਮੁ ਰਾਮੁ ਕਰਤਾ ਸਭੁ ਜਗੁ ਫਿਰੈ ਰਾਮੁ ਨ ਪਾਇਆ ਜਾਇ ॥
Ram Ram karta sabh jag phiray Ram na paiya jaey
Guru Amar Das ji says, the world says "Ram Ram" however Ram is not obtained like this. He goes to say that Ram is unreachable, unfathomable and so great, he cannot be measured.
He then says to obtain Him one needs to listen to their guru and through the guru's teachings, Ram illuminates in the student's mind.
Finally he says that only Ram Himself comes to meet you, only He decides whether you meet Him or not.

On one hand Guru Sahib says to do naam simran. On the other hand, Guru Sahib says to also consult with someone who has also advanced greatly. Only in the company of the advanced souls, Sadhu Sangat, can one obtain Ram. And then lastly, only through Ram's own wish, will He make Himself known to you.

that Ram(not the son of king Dashrat)

I don't know why you say that. In Guru Granth Sahib no such distinction is made.
Bhagat Namdev ji says quite clearly, have a look -
ਜਸਰਥ ਰਾਇ ਨੰਦੁ ਰਾਜਾ ਮੇਰਾ ਰਾਮ ਚੰਦੁ ਪ੍ਰਣਵੈ ਨਾਮਾ ਤਤੁ ਰਸੁ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਪੀਜੈ ॥੪॥੪॥
jasrath rai nand raja mera ram chand pranvai tat ras meejay. 8.8. (transliteration)
Dasrath King's son, Raja mine Ram Chandra, humbly Nama reality essence Amrit drinks (word for word meaning)
Namdev ji says, the The son of King Dasrath, King Ram Chandra is my Lord, I humbly drink the essence of meditation on Ram.

The entire shabad on this page 973 is about meditation on Ram. Who is Ram? He clearly answers in this verse.

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Sat Sree Akal Bhagat Jee

​ ਰਾਮੁ ਰਾਮੁ ਕਰਤਾ ਸਭੁ ਜਗੁ ਫਿਰੈ ਰਾਮੁ ਨ ਪਾਇਆ ਜਾਇ ॥
Ram Ram karta sabh jag phiray Ram na paiya jaey
Guru Amar Das ji says, the world says "Ram Ram" however Ram is not obtained like this. He goes to say that Ram is unreachable, unfathomable and so great, he cannot be measured.
He then says to obtain Him one needs to listen to their guru and through the guru's teachings, Ram illuminates in the student's mind.
Finally he says that only Ram Himself comes to meet you, only He decides whether you meet Him or not.

On one hand Guru Sahib says to do naam simran. On the other hand, Guru Sahib says to also consult with someone who has also advanced greatly. Only in the company of the advanced souls, Sadhu Sangat, can one obtain Ram. And then lastly, only through Ram's own wish, will He make Himself known to you.

Fantastic all this above with which I very much agree. And to this, I would like add something from the Bani which goes in tune with the comments made by you.

Gur kirpa keenee, Sach, man vasaaya.  

That is: with the grace of the Sadhu Sangat, that Supreme Being, comes to abide in us, or is made "pargat within us"

I don't know why you say that. In Guru Granth Sahib no such distinction is made.
Bhagat Namdev ji says quite clearly, have a look -
ਜਸਰਥ ਰਾਇ ਨੰਦੁ ਰਾਜਾ ਮੇਰਾ ਰਾਮ ਚੰਦੁ ਪ੍ਰਣਵੈ ਨਾਮਾ ਤਤੁ ਰਸੁ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਪੀਜੈ ॥੪॥੪॥
jasrath rai nand raja mera ram chand pranvai tat ras meejay. 8.8. (transliteration)
Dasrath King's son, Raja mine Ram Chandra, humbly Nama reality essence Amrit drinks (word for word meaning)
Namdev ji says, the The son of King Dasrath, King Ram Chandra is my Lord, I humbly drink the essence of meditation on Ram.

The entire shabad on this page 973 is about meditation on Ram. Who is Ram? He clearly answers in this verse.

We are nobody to know the heights of any Saint or Gurmukh. I do not know about you, but me surely not. So I will not discuss, why Bhagat Nam Dev says so, or why He did not say otherwise....

You have  a way of perceiving things, me too the same, and the same applies with all, because we all are at different conscious levels.  Each one of us has different shoe size so to say. Why you believe so, maybe is good and valid for you because you are at that level at that time.  And the thing is we are not the same at all times. As years pass, we grow in maturity along with spiritual work or bhakti. Changes are not like at the physical level, but at the intelectual, emotional or spiritual level. Like things we used to believe 20 years ago, suddenly  take a different direction. things which we used to read like parrots and remembered them by heart, suddenly we see the true depth or meaning, which they were meant...

So you see, I can not force you on anything, neither you can on me, because each has different backgrounds, different sanskaras, intearctions with the world, etc. 

And this does not necessarily mean, that someone is better... You see, it is just a matter of time.  Some seeds sprout earlier, and some later, due to the different grounds they fall in, or the climatical conditions they face, lack of water, or overfloods at some times .... The trees will surely grow, but it all depends on individual conditions.

So, going a bit further, as you have stated something from Bhagat Nam Dev´s Bani, which I very much respect, I am going to put forth some words of reasonable value of a Gurmukh, and then some words of Bhagat Kabeer Jee´s sloks.

"Gurbani or the Guru’s word as contained in Sri Guru Granth Sahib says God has no name but still innumerable names. Gurbani contains the Gurus’ discourses which they sang and explained to their audiences. The compositions of various saints selected by the gurus for inclusion in the scripture also follow the same principle which is basically the unity of God and how the soul may merge back into God and attain salvation.

The Sikh faith emanated from India which is also where the Hindu religion had earlier come into being. The two faiths are therefore partners in same languages and culture. Most of the original Hindu scriptures are in Sanskrit considered the language of the gods – Dev Bhasha. The Sikh religion has only one holy book which is considered the eternal guru and called Sri Guru Granth Sahib. Most of Gurbani represents the discourses the Gurus and the earlier saints or Bhagats gave to their audiences. It uses languages that were then current in India during the period of evolution of its contents from the 15th to the 18th centuries CE. Gurbani therefore uses the names for God as understood by the people. This included Persian and Arabic words which had been become known because of Muslim presence.

Out of the names of Akal Purakh used in Gurbani a representative list could be:

ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ, ਰਾਮ, ਹਰਿ, ਕਰਤਾਰ, ਅਕਾਲ ਮੂਰਤਿ, ਠਾਕੁਰ, ਖਸਮ, ਅੰਤਰਜਾਮੀ, ਨਿਰੰਜਨ, ਅਬਿਨਾਸੀ, ਪਰਮੇਸਰ, ਪ੍ਰਭ, ਬਿਧਾਤਾ, ਸਾਰੰਗਪਾਣੀ, ਦਇਆਲ, ਦਾਤਾ, ਅਚੁਤ, ਗੋਪਾਲ, ਗੋਬਿੰਦ, ਚਿੰਤਾਮਣਿ, ਪਤਿਤ ਪਾਵਨ, ਪਰਮਾਨੰਦ, ਗੁਰਦੇਵ, ਸਿਰਜਨਹਾਰ, ਪ੍ਰਤਿਪਾਲਕ, ਦੁਖ ਭੰਜਨ, ਕਿਰਪਾਲ, ਸੁਖ ਸਾਗਰ, ਬੀਠਲ, ਭਗਤ ਵਛਲ, ਨਾਰਾਇਣ, ਮੁਕੰਦ, ਸੁਆਮੀ, ਸਾਈਂ ॥

Parbrahm, Ram, Hari, Kartar, Akal Moorat, Thakur, Khasam, Antarjami, Niranjan, Abinasi, Parmesar, Prabhu, Bidhata, Sarangpani, Dayal, data, Achut, Gopal, Gobind, Chintamani, Patit Paavan, Parmanand, Gurdev, Sirjanhaar, Pratipaalak, Dukh Bhanjan, Kirpal, Sukh Saagar, Beethal, Bhagat Vachhal. Naarain, Mukand, Saaeen.

Some of the names associated with Krishna incarnation in Hindu mythology:

ਮੁਰਾਰੀ, ਮਧਸੂਦਨ, ਦਮੋਦਰ, ਗੋਵਰਧਨ, ਬਨਵਾਰੀ ॥

Murari, Madhusoodan, Damodar, Goverdhan (Lifter of), Banwari.

Some of the names used by the Muslims for God:

ਅਲਹ, ਮਉਲਾ, ਖੁਦਾ, ਸੁਲਤਾਨ, ਰਹੀਮ, ਕਰੀਮ, ਹਕ, ਪਰਵਰਦਗਾਰ, ਕਬੀਰ ॥

Allah, Maula, Khuda, Sultan, Rahim, Karim, Haq, Parvardgar, Kabir.

Attempts have been made by Hindu scholars followed by some foreign scholars to represent the Sikh faith as an offshoot of Hinduism or even a part of it. This is a result of mistaking cultural identity as religious.

It is interesting to note how the two faiths got their names. The Hindu religion derives its name from ‘Sindhu’ based on the area of river Indus called Sind in India. So the name is based on a region. The word ‘Sikh’ means a disciple or seeker and hence the Sikh religion represents the ‘seekers’. It is transcends space boundaries.

There is another interesting aspect. As we shall see below the Hindu faith is based on the stories of incarnations whose existence is linked to particular ages. Hinduism therefore has limitations of time and space as far as their gods or deities are concerned. Since the Hindu gods represent different ages it shows they were born and died like ordinary human beings. On the other hand the Sikh faith believes only in One God who is unborn, eternal and beyond limitations of time and space.

One way of describing God could be on the basis of our perception of what God does. This is how the names mentioned above have been given.

Name is given to some one by the parents on birth. God is Ajooni i.e. does not incarnate so no one could have given IT any name. But every entity needs some means of identification which may be in the form of identification marks, color, hair, gender, lineage, caste or origin. God has none of these but is still a reality, an eternal reality. This last aspect of being eternal is unique to God – every one and every thing else comes into existence and perishes. This is called Sat Naam i.e God is known as the Universal Truth.

Gurbani acknowledges that it is impossible to give name to God except our perception of Its virtues. The fifth guru says:

ਕਿਰਤਮ ਨਾਮ ਕਥੇ ਤੇਰੇ ਜਿਹਬਾ ॥ ਸਤਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਤੇਰਾ ਪਰਾ ਪੂਰਬਲਾ ॥ ੫ ੧੦੮੩ 

O Lord we can only describe your virtues,but  You are the universal truth from time immemorial (M: 5, 1083).

That means that God is identified by way of ITs virtues. Since it is the same God of all the same names would be used by all subject however to the languages used.

Many writers of other faiths describe the Sikhs as Hindus simply because Gurbani uses those names for God that are used also by the Hindus.

The case with incarnations is different.

Let us consider the following fundamental beliefs in Hinduism:

 

  1. One god, who is the supreme master.
  2. There are 36 crore or 360 million gods in Hindu belief. However God is also believed to be represented by the trinity of Brahma the creator, Vishnu the sustainer and Shankar (also called Ishar, Mahesh, Mahadev and Rudra), the destroyer. The latter is also popularly called Shiva – a name for God – because of the tremendous powers attributable to him.
  3. Vishnu incarnates and is to have ten incarnations nine of which have already occurred. This has happened in the four ages or Yugas in Hindu mythology namely Satya, Treta, Dwaapar and the current Kali. His incarnations are worshipped as if God. Two incarnations namely Rama in Treta and Krishna in Dwaapar are given particular attention. The tenth incarnation Kaliki is yet to come.
  4. The Hindu temples have idols mostly of Krishna and his consort Radha installed in them. That is because Krishna is considered the supreme Deva or god.
  5. In addition to the belief in Shiva as God the Hindus also believe in Shakti the wife of Shankar for God to achieve full power. Shakti means power. There are separate temples of the Devi or goddess where her idol is installed. The devotees pray to her for benedictions.
  6. The Hindu mode of worship is Pooja Archna. These involve burning lamps or incense and offering food or flowers for the deity. Items of clothing along with food are also offered for the Devi.
  7. All Pooja must be done by the priests at the respective temples.
  8.  

Since the Hindu faith is one of belief in incarnations as well as in God the dichotomy can be seen. It is considered a polytheistic faith.

Rama considered the seventh incarnation of Vishnu is linked with Treta Yuga and the epic Ramayana. He was the eldest son of King Dashrath of Ayodhya but gave up the right to his father’s throne and instead went on exile to uphold the word of his father to Rama’s step mother. He is therefore called Maryada Purushtam or the upholder of principles. This is the attribute emphasized in Hindu writings. There is no direct divinity attributed to him except by inference.

Gurbani uses the Name Ram in two ways one as the son of Dashrath and the other for God.

The Hindu and other writers catching on to Ram as God say the Sikh religion accepts the divinity of Ram and are therefore Hindus.

Gurbani however clearly brings out the difference between the two, thus in the following words of Kabeer Jee´s sloks in Ang 1374:

kabeer raam kahan meh bhayd hai taa meh ayk bichaar.
Kabeer, it does make a difference, how you chant the Lord's Name, 'Raam'. This is something to consider.

so-ee raam sabhai kaheh so-ee ka-utakhaar.
Everyone uses the same word for the son of Dasrath, and the Wondrous Lord.

kabeer raamai raam kaho kahibay maahi bibayk.
Kabeer, use the word 'Raam', only to speak of the All-pervading Lord. You must make that distinction. 

ayk anaykeh mil ga-i-aa ayk samaanaa ayk.
One 'Raam' is pervading everywhere, while the other is contained only in himself(son of king Dashrat).

* I am not disrespecting any gods, but each one has a place, and for me, Wahiguru Akal Purukh is the only Reality, all others deites, gods, godesses ... even in millions or trillions of them come together before me, even then undoubtedly, my beloved Wahiguru is the most beautiful and utmost sweet, and to His Charan Kamal shall I pray,  to bless me to stay there forever.

 

Mera Har Prabh Sundar, meh saar na jaanaa

Sat Sree Akal .

 

 

Edited by harsharan000
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Your entire argument is derived from this incorrectly translated shabad. So let's first understand this shabad -
 
kabeer raam kahan meh bhayd hai taa meh ayk bichaar.

Kabeer, it does make a difference, how you chant the Lord's Name, 'Raam'. This is something to consider.

so-ee raam sabhai kaheh so-ee ka-utakhaar.
Everyone uses the same word for the son of Dasrath, and the Wondrous Lord.

kabeer raamai raam kaho kahibay maahi bibayk.
Kabeer, use the word 'Raam', only to speak of the All-pervading Lord. You must make that distinction. 

ayk anaykeh mil ga-i-aa ayk samaanaa ayk.
One 'Raam' is pervading everywhere, while the other is contained only in himself(son of king Dashrat).

Read the Gurmukhi of this shabad. You'll notice a few things.

It does not say "Son of Dashrath" anywhere in the Gurmukhi, nor is it implied.
It does not say "Only to speak of all-pervading lord" anywhere in the Gurmukhi, nor is it implied.
It does not say "pervading everywhere" or "contained only in himself" anywhere in the Gurmukhi, nor is it implied.

The English translation is mistranslated and is used to misrepresent this shabad.

This is not what Sant Kabir ji is talking about and these are not the views he holds. This is not what Guru Granth Sahib ji is talking about either, and this mistranslated  shabad is used to misrepresent the Guru.

So what is this shabad talking about?
 

ਕਬੀਰ ਰਾਮ ਕਹਨ ਮਹਿ ਭੇਦੁ ਹੈ ਤਾ ਮਹਿ ਏਕੁ ਬਿਚਾਰੁ ॥
Kabīr rām kahan mėh bẖeḏ hai ṯā mėh ek bicẖār.
Kabir says there is a difference in how one says "Ram", let me share one thought.

So now he mentions Kautakahar. Kautakhar are those people who perform miracles to entertain. Kabir ji is saying -

ਸੋਈ ਰਾਮੁ ਸਭੈ ਕਹਹਿ ਸੋਈ ਕਉਤਕਹਾਰ ॥੧੯੦॥
So▫ī rām sabẖai kahėh so▫ī ka▫uṯakhār. ||190||
All (saints) say "Ram" and so do the ka▫uṯakhār, those who perform miracles or entertain.

(i.e. the saints chant Ram because they have Prem/love for Ram. The kautakhar chant Ram to obtain ridhi sidhi, power to perform miracles, which they will show off. The latter have Prem for ridhi sidhi not Ram.)

ਕਬੀਰ ਰਾਮੈ ਰਾਮ ਕਹੁ ਕਹਿਬੇ ਮਾਹਿ ਬਿਬੇਕ ॥
Kabīr rāmai rām kaho kahibe māhi bibek.
Kabir says do say "Ram" but in saying it recognize this difference/ this thought (bibek).

The difference is in intention!

ਏਕੁ ਅਨੇਕਹਿ ਮਿਲਿ ਗਇਆ ਏਕ ਸਮਾਨਾ ਏਕ ॥੧੯੧॥
Ėk anekėh mil ga▫i▫ā (verb) ek samānā ek (verb). ||191||
That one merged in the many, and one merged in the One.

"pervading everywhere" (noun) or "contained only in himself" (noun) are incorrect translations of these Verbs.
ਮਿਲਿ ਗਇਆ - is a verb, it's the act of doing
ਏਕ ਸਮਾਨਾ ਏਕ - is a verb, it's an act of doing

That those who were after the power to perform miracles merged with (verb) those powers, meaning they never achieved mukti. But those (saints) who were after Ram merged with Him, the One (verb).

They are both doing Bhagati but their intentions are worlds apart, this is what Kabir is talking about in this shabad. The bibek you need to have to do Bhagati matters as it ultimately determines what result you get.

So you see now what Bhagat Kabir ji is talking about? He's talking about differences in goals and aims, differences in intentions and purpose. And this is absolutely clear if you just read the Gurmukhi.

Just let that sink in. Bhagat Kabir ji is talking about aim and intentions.
Bhagat Kabir ji in his other shabads refers to Shri Ram, Son of Dashrath, as the Archer, Purushotam, the Leader of Raghu Dynasty, amongst His other epithets. He makes no distinctions that you are making. And in Guru Granth Sahib no such distinction is ever made.

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The aim of Sikhee is One only : Naam.

Since the very begining in the Bani, First Patshahee says: Ik Oankar, Sat-Nam. Means that power is Naam, and is Sat, because, it is the only eternal everlasting Truth, everything else is "koor" is "fanah"

This Naam is Nirankar, Alakh, Agam and Anami ....  But that Supreme Truth is called by Guru Jee as Naam. Now in the Bani, as Naam permates amd pervades each atom of th creation, means it is "rameeya hua hae", the Bani usually mentions Ram Naam for this very reason, because it is not only omnipresent, but actually is present in each particle of His creation.

Wahiguru created everything by Himself from this vey Naam, for which He did not need any materials, nor the support of anyone or anything.

Third Patshahee in Raag Suhi says: Namae hee te sabh kich hoa. By Naam has everything being created

Fift Patshaee says.Naam kay dharay khand brahmand: .... Naam ka dharay agas patal: Naam creates and sustains all realms ....Naam sustaineth all worlds and universes, Naam sustaineth the upper realms  and the nether world.

So Naam is the one sole reality, without any second third or any numbers ....

All our Guru Sahibans, Bhagat Jan, Sant Jan, Gurmukhs, whenever they have come at our level, it is to this very reality, which they direct our attention.

Inspite of them being the embodiment of Akal Purukh, they never tell us to to their bhakti or worship them, they are so  humble, that for example First Patsahee called Himself as "laala golaa", others have said we are nothing but His servants.

And whenever they have come at our human level, they never display miraculous powers, neither they come with their consorts shaktis, their only dependance is Naam, and they tell us, plead us, do not waste your time after anything else, but rather do His Simran, which is the highest religion. And it is by our bhakti of Naam, that we can reach our Nijh Ghar Sach Khand. We do not need to first pray to any gods, for their blessings, rather they tell us that we can have direct link with Wahiguru with His Simran

Meanwhile, the so called avatars, gods, godesses, are all with a purpose, which is keeping the creation running  under His laws, His hukum.

You see, by worshiping these deities, gods, avatars...we can at most reach Baikunth, Swarg, Shivpuri, but never Wahiguru.

These avatars, tell us to worship them, in order that we may never reach or think of Wahiguru, otherwise, how can the creation keep running.  They come time after time, to reestablish order, so that as said before we may take them as ultimate reality and get entangled here, because, it is only by His Simran, that we can be free forever and merge in that Supreme Power.

The difference between avatras, gods, deities and Guru Sahibans, is, that Gurmukhs divert our attention from all paraphernalia towards one reality Wahiguru through His Simran, while these other lower powers,  towards themselves.

It is a pitiful scene,  that how though having sikhee as the only straight path to reach Wahiguru, this brahmanvadee manmat, is slowly entering sikhee and polluting it, that also, because we are so weak, that, we fail to undersatnd the Bani in its true measure, and then we even try  to justify ourselves by being cunning,  smart  with big empty words and  intelectual reasoning.

One thing is to respect everyone and everything, but we should never ever take fake as reality. And  the reality is Sikhee as per teachings of our Guru Sahibans, none can match them, however that avatar or deity may seem divine or appealing.

Wahiguru Akal Purukh is the only Supteme reality, all other gods, godesses, deities, in comparison are pecks of dust ....

Then we should also keep in mind, that if any simran brings ridhis sidhhis in front of us, this means, we are doing the simran of a lowly entity or deity, and this is the case of gods, or avatars.... means that naam japna we are doing is "kaachaa". So, it is right jugtee that counts, not one´s intentions. His Naam is so paviter, that even if we do His bhakti for any inferior reasons, it does not really matter much, we shall be taken care and straightened by that Dayal Purukh, thus purified.

Because just as the Bani says: Har Simran meh Prabh aap Nirankara.

Means, in the real Simran of His Naam, He Himself is there. And moreover, the Bani says, that by His Simran, the messengers of death run away. We get rid of all our sins, vikaars, sanskaras, karmas, mind, maya, desires.... And this has logic in it, if He is present in His Simran, which power/entity dares to come near us? Because He is there to protect us, from all adversities which may arise, He is so Dayalu.

So you see, there are simrans and simrans, there are naams, and Naam. having the names of hindu gods in the bani, does not mean, we should worship them, but these are names after some qualities or vitues in the Supreme Being.

For example, Ram the son of Dashrat, got his name, as per given by his parents, while the Guru Sahibans or Gurmukhs, if say Ram Naam, it is only to convey us the message, that, that Naam  permeates each atom, it is "rameeya hua hae"·

So it is the Naam  which permeates everywhere as Power, not raja Ram.

For example, the name Gobind is also mentioned in the Bani. But as we all know, Gobind is also an other name for Krishna,

But Saints, Guru Sahibans, while referring to the term Gobind do not refer to Krishna, but that Supreme Being, because Go-Bind are two syllables, which means the sustainer/ of the universe.

In a similar way, if there are other such names of hindu gods in the Bani, it is due to the attributes or virtues of Wahiguru or Naam.

Below are some comments on your quotations above:

ਸੋਈ ਰਾਮੁ ਸਭੈ ਕਹਹਿ ਸੋਈ ਕਉਤਕਹਾਰ ॥੧੯੦॥
So▫ī rām sabẖai kahėh so▫ī ka▫uṯakhār. ||190||
All (saints) say "Ram" and so do the ka▫uṯakhār, those who perform miracles or entertain.

In your this particular quotation and explanation, you have entered  the word "saints" as nowhere in Gurmukhi says so, it is entirley your interpretaion. This is not correct, thus you are changing the meaning totally as per what Bhagat Kabeer Jee really wants to tell us.

It is more likeley correct, that to him who all call as Ramchandra, he displays powers, with his knowledge, is  thus is a ka-utakhar  also.

The same as with Krishna, while lifting the mountain whae Indra decided to make a heavy rainfall...and many other  more of his leelas ....

There is a vast differences between these avatars of Vishnu,  and Guru Sahibans or Gurmukhs, who are the very embodiment of Wahiguru Akal Purukh.

While the avatars come time after time to keep the creation in order with righteouness,  Guru Sahibans, come with the sword of Nam to cut all our chains with the creation, and use it as a way to reach and merge in Wahiguru. That is it.

ਕਬੀਰ ਰਾਮੈ ਰਾਮ ਕਹੁ ਕਹਿਬੇ ਮਾਹਿ ਬਿਬੇਕ ॥
Kabīr rāmai rām kaho kahibe māhi bibek.
Kabir says do say "Ram" but in saying it recognize this difference/ this thought (bibek).

In this line above, you are ommiting the word "ramai·", which actually means, the one Ram which premates or pervades everywhere, thus again your tranaslation is uncomplete and incorrect, and thus it gives a distorted view.

I do not at all agree with whatever you want to make us see, that  Ram of Ayodhya, Krishna, Brahma, Shiva, Vishnu are  absolute realities in any manner....  I do not deny their existence, neither their shkatis nor their prole, but they have nothing, nothing to do with my beloved Wahiguru Akal Purukh.

For example our Guru Sahibans, as said above, are the embodiment of Akal Purukh, but none of them told us in any way to do the jaap of their worldly names, as Sachay Patshah Nanak,  Arjun Dev, etc ...Or have you seen anybody doing so?

All of them told us reapeatedly, to do the Simran of One Naam, which is the Truth since Aad Jugaad, and shall continue to be  so yugas after yugas....

To end, would like to write a few words of mahima of the True Naam from Sukhmani Sahib, which the Bani talks about and gives us salvation:

Naam tul kachhu avar na hoe, Nanak Gurmukh Naam  paavai jan koe.

Sat Sree Akal.

 

 

 

 


 

Edited by harsharan000
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Look dude you have your own beliefs, I understand. Your views are not the focus of the discussion here. And we can discuss Indian religions too if you like in another thread. This discussion has a different focus.
This discussion is about what it says in Guru Granth Sahib.

As I said that translation you are basing your argument on, is completely botched. So I gave you an accurate one. In your reply, you have some questions about the one I provided. Let's discuss these.

ਸੋਈ ਰਾਮੁ ਸਭੈ ਕਹਹਿ ਸੋਈ ਕਉਤਕਹਾਰ ॥੧੯੦॥
So▫ī rām sabẖai kahėh so▫ī ka▫uṯakhār. ||190||
All (saints) say "Ram" and so do the ka▫uṯakhār, those who perform miracles or entertain.

In your this particular quotation and explanation, you have entered  the word "saints" as nowhere in Gurmukhi says so, it is entirley your interpretaion.

As you can clearly see, I wrote it as "(saints)", I put it in brackets. So I know. However It really is talking about saints even though Kabir doesn't use the word "saint". This is because in the very last tuk, he says that these "people" will merge into the One, into Ram. Since they merged into the One, they can be called saints. 

ਏਕੁ ਅਨੇਕਹਿ ਮਿਲਿ ਗਇਆ ਏਕ ਸਮਾਨਾ ਏਕ ॥੧੯੧॥
"That one have merged in the many, and one have merged in the One."
The kautakahars have become engrossed in the many kautaks/miracles, and the others have merged into the One. Since they merged into the one, they can be called saints.

Kabir ji's point is this -
We know that Saints can also do miracles. We know that Kautakhars can also do miracles.
So the naturally the question gets asked - Is there a difference? If so, what is the difference between the two groups?
The entire shabad addresses this question.
Kabir ji answers that the Saints meditate on Ram out of pure love. Where as Kautakhars, meditate on Ram to gain ability to show kautak. And this difference is important to recognize because it ultimately leads to those goals. It has to be kept in mind while chanting "Ram, Ram".

If your goal is to achieve powers, then that's all you will get (ਏਕੁ ਅਨੇਕਹਿ ਮਿਲਿ ਗਇਆ) .
If your goal is to get Ram, then that's who you will get (ਏਕ ਸਮਾਨਾ ਏਕ) .

ਕਬੀਰ ਰਾਮੈ ਰਾਮ ਕਹੁ ਕਹਿਬੇ ਮਾਹਿ ਬਿਬੇਕ ॥
Kabīr rāmai rām kaho kahibe māhi bibek.
Kabir says do say "Ram" but in saying it recognize this difference/ this thought (bibek).

In this line above, you are ommiting the word "ramai·", which actually means, the one Ram which premates or pervades everywhere, thus again your tranaslation is uncomplete and incorrect, and thus it gives a distorted view.

 That wouldn't change the meaning I posted because that's what Ram means but when we are translating from Gurmukhi, we have to stick to the words. So keep in mind that ਰਾਮੈ is the same thing as ਰਾਮ.

For example, Kabir ji says -
ਮੁਆ ਕਬੀਰੁ ਰਮਤ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਰਾਮੈ ॥੫॥੧੫॥
I died meditating on "Shri Ram"

ਰਾਮੈ is the same thing as ਰਾਮ . In another example, Kabir ji says
ਰਾਮੈ ਰਾਮ ਰਮਤ ਸੁਖੁ ਪਾਵੈ ॥੪॥
Chanting "Ram, Ram" one attains peace.
ਰਮਤ means to permeate ਰਾਮੈ ਰਾਮ/Ram, Ram


ਰਾਮੈ is the same thing as ਰਾਮ
In this example, Guru Sahib says -
ਗੁਰਮਤਿ ਰਾਮੈ ਨਾਮਿ ਬਸਾਈ ॥ ਅਸਥਿਰੁ ਰਹੈ ਨ ਕਤਹੂੰ ਜਾਈ ॥੪॥
Through the Guru's teachings, those who have enshrined "Ram Naam" (the name of Ram) in their hearts, they becomes Asthir, permanent, ie they becomes free of births and deaths.

ਰਾਮੈ is the same thing as ਰਾਮ. Just like how ਨਾਮੈ is the same thing as ਨਾਮਾ (Namdev ji's nickname)
ਜਨ ਨਾਮੈ ਤਤੁ ਪਛਾਨਿਆ ॥੩॥੩॥

Servant Namdev (ਨਾਮੈ) has recognized reality.


So keep those examples in mind and read the tuk again -
ਕਬੀਰ ਰਾਮੈ ਰਾਮ ਕਹੁ ਕਹਿਬੇ ਮਾਹਿ ਬਿਬੇਕ ॥
Kabir ji says, do chant "Ram, Ram", and have this bibek while chanting.


So here's same translation using different words. We won't use the word saint in brackets and you'll see that the meaning is the same.

ਕਬੀਰ ਰਾਮ ਕਹਨ ਮਹਿ ਭੇਦੁ ਹੈ ਤਾ ਮਹਿ ਏਕੁ ਬਿਚਾਰੁ ॥
Kabir says there is a distinction in saying "Ram", let me share this notion.

ਸੋਈ ਰਾਮੁ ਸਭੈ ਕਹਹਿ ਸੋਈ ਕਉਤਕਹਾਰ ॥੧੯੦॥
That "Ram" everyone chants, that "Ram" the ka▫uṯakhār also chant.

ਕਬੀਰ ਰਾਮੈ ਰਾਮ ਕਹੁ ਕਹਿਬੇ ਮਾਹਿ ਬਿਬੇਕ ॥
Kabir says definitely say "Ram, Ram" but in saying it recognize the distinction.

ਏਕੁ ਅਨੇਕਹਿ ਮਿਲਿ ਗਇਆ ਏਕ ਸਮਾਨਾ ਏਕ ॥੧੯੧॥
That the kautakhar have become engrossed in the many powers, and the others have merged with the One (with Ram).
 

 

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Look dude you have your own beliefs, I understand. Your views are not the focus of the discussion here. And we can discuss Indian religions too if you like in another thread. This discussion has a different focus.
This discussion is about what it says in Guru Granth Sahib.

As I said that translation you are basing your argument on, is completely botched. So I gave you an accurate one.

 

 From dude to dude,

it is very easy to point others.

First thing:

as you say, I have my own beliefs, and that has to be acceptable and respected, though you can disagree,  but then, it is the same with you. Or are you going now to tell me you haven´t?

Second thing:

I am not at  all trying to impose my views, I am just expressing them. Neither i am focussing on them alone. But you just reject whatever does not  fit in your own mental frame, and demean it. Then, if ever anything that interests me, it is Gurbani only, so now do not try to divert the attention by blaming me on focussing my views, that is a dirty game from your side. I am at least as much as you interested in Gurbani. So come on, and do not be so petty minded. Just because you disagree, that dooes not mean you are right and I am wrong.

For me, no matter how much you  reason or try to reason in this way, it is a totally wrong version.

 

Third thing:

why is it that your points or views are correct and mine botched? Out of respect I never told you the same about your beliefs, but today I am pushed by you to say,  yours are totallly botched for me also. You add things by your own and remove what is not in your interest.

 

Fourth point :

Saints are already one with Wahiguru, there is no difference between the two. It is we people, that we can merge in Him by His Simran. You do not become a Saint by merging in Him, rather you become Him. Because a Saint is not something like attaining a degree in the university, rather a Saint, a Gurmukh, Guru Sahiban, is called a Saint only when Wahiguru comes in the human form at our human level. He does not come as an avatar, but as a Saint, Sant Satguru, Gurmukh....

That also, for the only purpose of reuniting the jeeva souls with Wahiguru through the Naam or Shabad.

 

And last:

do not tell me to put your views in my mind, keep them locked in yours, it is the best thing you can do us.

Or better even, vacate them, be a bit humble, and learn from  the Sadh Kee Sangat. 

Today I am here, tomorrow I may not be, that is not the problem, because I have no regrets. The problem can be, if people with your attitude remain.

I do not accept as reality any Ramchandra, any Krishna, Shiva, Brahma or any other gods or godesses in any numbers, because if there is any Sureme Reality, at least for me, that is only my beloved Wahiguru Akal Purukh.

Sat Sree Akal.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by harsharan000
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  • 7 months later...
On 10/9/2006 at 5:30 AM, vinegar said:

interpretations I can think of are

 

"Ram Rahim Puran Quran all have limitless meaning, but I dont follow any of their ways"

 

and

 

"Countless ppl say/speak Ram Rahim Puran Quran, but not one believes in the way"

 

"Countless ppl say/speak Ram Rahim Puran Quran, but I dont follow any of their ways"

 

sorry if im wrong...

Its beautiful , how simple words can make such difference... Thank you for translation... Namaskara

 

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  • 3 years later...
On 7/3/2015 at 6:59 AM, BhagatSingh said:
 

 ਰਾਮੁ ਰਾਮੁ ਕਰਤਾ ਸਭੁ ਜਗੁ ਫਿਰੈ ਰਾਮੁ ਨ ਪਾਇਆ ਜਾਇ ॥
Ram Ram karta sabh jag phiray Ram na paiya jaey
Guru Amar Das ji says, the world says "Ram Ram" however Ram is not obtained like this. He goes to say that Ram is unreachable, unfathomable and so great, he cannot be measured.
He then says to obtain Him one needs to listen to their guru and through the guru's teachings, Ram illuminates in the student's mind.
Finally he says that only Ram Himself comes to meet you, only He decides whether you meet Him or not.

On one hand Guru Sahib says to do naam simran. On the other hand, Guru Sahib says to also consult with someone who has also advanced greatly. Only in the company of the advanced souls, Sadhu Sangat, can one obtain Ram. And then lastly, only through Ram's own wish, will He make Himself known to you.

I don't know why you say that. In Guru Granth Sahib no such distinction is made.
Bhagat Namdev ji says quite clearly, have a look -
ਜਸਰਥ ਰਾਇ ਨੰਦੁ ਰਾਜਾ ਮੇਰਾ ਰਾਮ ਚੰਦੁ ਪ੍ਰਣਵੈ ਨਾਮਾ ਤਤੁ ਰਸੁ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਪੀਜੈ ॥੪॥੪॥
jasrath rai nand raja mera ram chand pranvai tat ras meejay. 8.8. (transliteration)
Dasrath King's son, Raja mine Ram Chandra, humbly Nama reality essence Amrit drinks (word for word meaning)
Namdev ji says, the The son of King Dasrath, King Ram Chandra is my Lord, I humbly drink the essence of meditation on Ram.

The entire shabad on this page 973 is about meditation on Ram. Who is Ram? He clearly answers in this verse.

Why are you specifically focusing on the word and trying to prove some bizarre point. why not talk about raheem and Quran?  All if this makes me think you want to glorify Hinduism. The words ram and raheem were used to address the masses as those were two dominant terms for "almighty" in the region. There is a reason gurusahib gave us the beautiful gurbani. Yes, read, rationalise and conceptualise  other scriptures and holy books, for it helps us connecting with gurbani with new found faith and belief. Religion has it's hierarchy. Even if you believe that Sikhism is an offshoot of Hinduism, that simply means that you accept that Sikhism is a new and better edition of Hinduism. No hatred against any religion for all lead to one,some take the direct path while others the bypassed path. 

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