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Programme - Wallace Collection - Nihang Niddar Singh Ji


shaheediyan
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http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7...291&q=sikhs

Found this. Some nice shots of beautiful shastar in the collection (shame the video quality is poor).

There is Singh who says a few words in the middle (3.24) who has an uncanny resemblance to veer Bahadur Singh Ji (Javanmard), based on the photo veer ji posted of himself... is this you veer ji :?:

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An interesting link next to one you provided was this one:

It is interesting to see what is happening in the picture captured (in view of recent events at Ek Nivas), but even more so to read the commentary below, the quality of language and arguments are a remarkable reflection of those seeking to "protect the panth"...

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Guest Javanmard

Yeah probably because it is Bahadur Singh...they needed a guy who was articulate in English (not joking). I am neither British nor is English my first language but it is a shame that I of all people had to speak on that programm with all these British born Sikhs around me...

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LOL - preservation, beautification and correct use of language doesn't seem to be as popular in todays age (globally).

The real shame, is not that British born Sikhs can't articulate their thoughts through English, but that the majority of the "indigenous" (as indigenous as a repeatedly conquered people can be) population have such a dreadful standard of their mother tongue.

At least many 1st generation Sikhs have an excuse i.e. their parents not being able to speak English or not having any knowledge of, and thus being unable to guide their children through a western education (as feeble an excuse as it may sound).

The same is probably true for most of the global population and preservation of their language, culture and faith.

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shaheediyan,

The observation you and others are making is part of a wider issue.

Whilst there are those here, who based on their dealings with what essentially is a minority in the UK, Canada or elsewhere of 2nd or 3rd generation Sikhs, despite their significant online presence, are nothing more than fringe elements of Sikh communities, on the basis of which they are vocally writing-off the entire community, there is a nonetheless a case here that is not necessarily peculiar to Sikhs alone.

I recall a study done some time ago (apologies, I have no references, it was something I read whilst in a Library sipping coffee), which looked into non-white groups of immigrants across the globe, as a whole the study uncovered that all immigrants whilst choosing to hold fast to some redefined aspects of their heritage, invariably modified it using Black Ghetto and Gangsta Rap culture.

This was found amongst Arabs, Indians, Chinese and many others of immigrant descent. The choice to identify with the Black Gangsta Rap culture can be explained in many ways, but mainly that it has in the media received a certain commercial success which effectively gives it a certain amount of fashionable street cred combined with a loose identification by 2nd generations of immigrant families to their own perceived hardships against the White majority.

This is precisely what is happening within the Sikh youth who are typically of non-Khaandani origin (i.e. born agains), the same is equally true of other religious and ethnic communities.

In the UK, the Sikh university scene is dominated by these born again types, much like in Canada. The said things is in Canada, these born again Sikhs through their activities have done nothing but marginalise the impression of Sikhs throughout the country, compared to the UK, where Sikhs are typically viewed as well mannered, educated and good citizens (largely on the merits of those Sikhs who arrived in the UK during the 1970s from Urban Indian or East Africa), the continual power-hungry desire of the born-again 1980s hothead Sikhs that subsequent emerged in the UK in controlling Gurdwaras, Political bodies and University scenes are largely responsible for the reversal of the public impression of Sikhs in the UK which coupled with the 'gangsta rap' adaption by the descendents of these Sikhs, can only point to one direction...

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Yes I agree veer ji.

The media infection, which is the cause of this disease (cultural evolution?) is largely to blame, although it isn't limited to the gangts"a" rap trend.

But the media influence isn't limited to those who choose to join the "downside" of society, it also affects those who dream of joing the "upside" also.

Chinese parents are currently teaching "10 million" of their children the violin and "30 million" of their children the piano, all at the expense of loosing, not promoting, not preserving the much more beautiful and much more ancient Chinese musical heritage. It's not just to give their children a chance to earn money orfame, but "up" their status.

There are many other examples of classist western trends popularised by

the media and emulated by millions globally.

You mentioned "well mannered, educated and good citizens" of Kenya and well to do India. In my experience, which in all practical terms is limited as it is for everyone else, meeting Sikhs from this origin, I have found in the large part, have happily and knowingly absorbed British colonial culture, at the expense of their faith, this is easily evidenced in the sad state of nearly all Ramgharia Gurdwarai in the UK today, most of which have been set up by and are run my Kenyan Sikhs, again most of which haven't even taken amrit, yet are happy to take "titles" of Pardhaan, Secretary of the said commitee.

For instance, the non-existence of amrit sanchaars in most. I even know personally of Gurdwarai where Gyanis are told not to talk about 1699 or do parchaar in any way thatmay offend the "paying sangat". So well mannered and courteous to think of not offending the sangat.

I have spoken to many sikh youth from this background, and most are truely clueless about Sikhi (apologies if it sounds like a stereotype, I say "most", I also know a few highly articulate and devoted individuals).

The only exception I have come across is pockets of "educated" Sikhs that have had darshan of sant such as Sant Isher Singh Ji Rara Sahib and the hard working sangat community of Guru Nanak Nishkaam Sevak Jathaa, kirpa of Baba Puran Singh ji Kritchu Vale. The current Jathedaar is perfect example of a highly educated/intellgent and devoted Gursikh.

Apologies for the minor outburst, just thought that both ends of the spectrum should be presented.

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Shaheediyan, I am not limiting East Africans to Ramgarhias or their sterilised counterparts in the UK and moreover Kenya is not the only place in East Africa from where Sikhs and others were based.

East African Sikhs comprise Khatris, Ahuluwalias and Jatts (in fact one of the most famous pioneers there was one Inder Singh Gill not to mention the predominantly famous Gurdwara in Kenya is a Singh Sabha not a Ramgarhia), not only Ramgarhias. Equally the sangat that you are singing the praises of (re: GNSSP et al) are predominantly of East African descent as are Nanaksar Gurdwaras in the UK.

Additionally, the well educated Sikhs from India were predominantly Khatris and others, so the point to note here, it that this is not a comment based on caste (although you have linked it to that) simply one referring to the difference immigration of Punjabi Sikhs from abroad (i.e. those who came during the 1950s for manual jobs and readily shed their kesh and dastars 'to get jobs') and those of more skilled and/or educated backgrounds who came during the 1970s predominantly from Urban India (as opposed to the Peasantry) and East Africa (as opposed to those who came from say Singapore and other parts of the Commonwealth who did exactly the same as those who came to the UK in the 1950s).

Your comments concerning what you refer to as "upside" issue are valid enough, particularly with regard to the acceptance of colonial culture, however the issue here is that this Group, regardless of their quirks and hang ups, have been the predominant ones to (a) preserve the laaj of the dastaar, as witnessed by the Mandla affair in which predominantly East African Sikhs were at the forefront, (B) the most active in terms of maintaining aspects now termed "Gurmat Sangeet", given that the majority of their descendents typically grow up around music and can be found in the the forefront today (be it at places like Nanaksar, GNSJJ, Ramgarhia Gurdwara, Singh Sabha Gurdwara or even in music institutions) and © productively contribute to the host country which they have now become a part of and belong...however it is precisely this group of people who are now being taunted by the born-again variety who adopt the "gangsta" norms and think that their new-found identity and image gives them a licence to preach to all.

The image you paint of the Chinese parents teaching their kids violin and/or piano at the expense of say a Huqin, Erhu or Zhonghu is not the same as the adoption of “gangsta†culture by immigrants. What you seem to be hinting at is that these parents are looking to define their kids by ‘white’ and “middle/upper class†standards, however what you are missing here is that it is the parents doing so as a means to aid effectively “assimilation†into the host community.

The instance of ‘gangsta rap’ and ‘black ghetto’ culture is something that develops from the 2nd generations themselves, not a feeble attempt by the immigrant parents to aid in the assimilation process, which is of equal concern, however a different topic. Additionally, those who adopt this mindset invariably use it to somehow reinforce their own ethnic identity, even though it has been plagiarised from someone else’s – a key example is the Hip Hop Dhadhi Jatha music we see today under the Shaheedi Immortality headings and the effectively “gang-membership†mindsets of the Taksali Youth vs. AKJ Youth in Canada for example. I have yet to see the other end of the spectrum, i.e. a Sikh assimilated into the host white community, which whilst presenting a different set of issues, say singing Kirtan or Dhadhi Varan to the backdrop of Choir music or a 4 piece string quartet!

Finally, the issue you mention concerning the Amrit Sanchar at Ramgarhia Gurdwaras is one I am familiar with and have long criticised myself to those very committee members you have described, however one can witness plenty of change over the past 5 years in Southall and Birmingham where the likes of the "Tandewale Jatha" Babas and Singhs who have annually arranged an Amrit Sanchar at each Vasakhi at Ramgarhia Gurdwaras.

In contrast however, what you seem to ignore is that over the past 20 years it was very common in the UK and US for Keshdhari Sikhs to be even mention the requirement of Kesh at several Singh Sabha Gurdwaras, a key example would be Singh Sabha Gurdwara Garland, North Texas where I personally witnessed the committee refusing to allow a Keshdhari Sikh to speak about the 5Ks (on Vasakhi of all days) because it would as you said 'offend' the clean-shaven sangat… (i.e. what you are describing is not limited to any one caste or sub-community and is largely a separate discussion to the one under here).

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Sorry, meant to say East Africa (Tanzania, Uganda etc) not Kenya, just that most I have met are from Kenya, apologies.

Yes veer ji, I know East Africa sangat comprises all denominations.

And the whole point of me mentioning GNNSJ was that they are originally/predominantly of East African origin, hence why I said "the only exceptions"..

I thought that this would happen, my comment was in no way linked to caste, please read my post again carefully before making such statements. I simply used Ramgharia ""Gurdwarai"" as the best example i could think of, not ""Ramgharias"" per se. Khatris are also regular attendees of Ramgharia Gurdwarai.

Nanaksar Gurdwaras, I definately don't agree with, they are mixed and in my experience more heavily of the Indian community, it depends on which Gur-ghar one has experience of I suppose. This is also depends on which Nanaksar faction you are talking of.

"however the issue here is that this Group, regardless of their quirks and hang ups, have been the predominant ones to (a) preserve the laaj of the dastaar, as witnessed by the Mandla affair in which predominantly East African Sikhs were at the forefront, (B) the most active in terms of maintaining aspects now termed "Gurmat Sangeet", given that the majority of their descendents typically grow up around music and can be found in the the forefront today (be it at places like Nanaksar, GNSJJ, Ramgarhia Gurdwara, Singh Sabha Gurdwara or even in music institutions) and © productively contribute to the host country which they have now become a part of and belong"

This is neither here nor there, I personally know productive/educated Gursikh from both dipositions and uneducated/non-sikh from both dispositions. There are many ways to contribute to the panth. I know many quiet, working class Gursikh who do immense seva in Gurdwarai and back in India, and equally know many "educated" middle class "sikhs" who do some seva which is no way nishkaam, although it may be seem to be a productive contribution by masses due to it's unsubtle nature.

My point was not to stereotype but to show the balance, the same is true in all other faith groups, be it Muslim, Christian or Hindu, in my experience, on the large part, I have found those truely devoted to be of a simple nature/background. But again this is my experience, not unquestionable fact. But that is not to say that educated, well to do Gursikh do not exist, I have personally experieced more pyaar and devotion in the "poorer" (for want of a better word) classes.

I believe the same is true for the original Sikhs who joined the panth also, "most" (not all) were from a low caste, poor, uneducated background, andit was these divine souls that also gave great shaheediyan in the early years.

Ultimately all depends on Guru Prasad, which does not see social status.

"The instance of ‘gangsta rap’ and ‘black ghetto’ culture is something that develops from the 2nd generations themselves, not a feeble attempt by the immigrant parents to aid in the assimilation process"

I think that the gansta rap arguement is only part of the real problem, which is, "having acceptance in the current generation". The immigrant parents are guilty of the same, 2nd, 3rd whatever generations, are simply moving with the times.

"A Sikh assimilated into the host white community, which whilst presenting a different set of issues, say singing Kirtan or Dhadhi Varan to the backdrop of Choir music or a 4 piece string quartet!"

Good point, I will look into this, although Ican probably provide examples of 3HO doing this (although you say they don't qualify as they are from non-Punjabi background).

In addition, you prove my point to an extent, Sikhi exists less in the "upper quartile", hence no Opera Kirtan!

"however one can witness plenty of change over the past 5 years in Southall and Birmingham where the likes of the "Tandewale Jatha" Babas and Singhs who have annually arranged an Amrit Sanchar at each Vasakhi at Ramgarhia Gurdwaras."

Southall Ramgharia Gurdwara has not had an amrit sanchaar at Vasakhi for many, many years. I usually go to the normally greatly entertaining Vasakhi programme. Funnily enough, this year was the 1st time they held a "home made" amrit sanchar, which was not advertised or communicated to the sangat, just mentioned in one evening divaan 2 weeks prior. Only 1 person took amrit from what I know, thankfully and finally, one of the commitee members!! He was congratulated by the new Pardaan, who didn't decide to amrit, but gave a sermon on the importance for everyone else to take it.

Wolverhampton Gurdwara, perish the thought!

Your last point is fair enough and a good one, which shows the assimilation of non-East African etc "Sikhs" into western society....

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Shaheediyan Veer,

I think we are divulging this into a caste and social status discussion unnecessarily - as I mentioned above, the caste item is across the board, (there are however many errors in the assertions who have made in the closing paragraphs of your last post, however I do not wish for this to continue into a caste discussion, which it is not nor is it concerning social status per se, so your references to inital Sikh converts is likewise irrelevant here).

On the social/educational status aspect however, the sad reality is that those who aptly choose to adopt the 'gangsta' rap culture are usually from affulent or middle class neighbourhoods (i.e. North West London etc) yet choose to behave as if they are from the ghetto.

This is my point in the initial post, those who adopt this (and for the record, my initial post addressed all Sikh subsections, but also across all ethnic groups), tend not to be growing in any black ghetto per se, it is purely what non-white second generation youth tend to adopt for the reasons spelt out above.

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Its funny to see Nihang Niddar Singh speaking proper punjabi....usualy theres a 'like' thrown in for good measure

have you heard how many times he says matlab? possibly at least once in every sentence if not twice in some.

you're a very handsome young man aren't you Bahadur Singh?

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Guest Javanmard

chatanga says:

"you're a very handsome young man aren't you Bahadur Singh"

Thanks chatanga but don't get too excited I am committed to a very beautiful woman already...

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"This is my point in the initial post, those who adopt this (and for the record, my initial post addressed all Sikh subsections, but also across all ethnic groups), tend not to be growing in any black ghetto per se, it is purely what non-white second generation youth tend to adopt for the reasons spelt out above."

Agreed.

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Yeah probably because it is Bahadur Singh...they needed a guy who was articulate in English (not joking). I am neither British nor is English my first language but it is a shame that I of all people had to speak on that programm with all these British born Sikhs around me...

I thought that was you! I thought you were British because your accent's pretty posh 8) .

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Guest Javanmard

Well no I am not British at all. Biologically 150 percent Portuguese. English is like the the 5th language I learned when I was young. So far from being my mother tongue.

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"posh accent" - this really spells it out! A clear, but clearly not British accent, is being regarded as POSH! Come on, with no intended disrespect to the speaker, it can hardly be regarded as amazing as people are STILL making out!!!

Then again, I guess anything that is not punctuated with words such as "innit", "like, like", "chardi-kala maaaan" and "safe" or "pumping" are no doubt going to be regarded as POSH by people today!!!

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Then again, I guess anything that is not punctuated with words such as "innit", "like, like", "chardi-kala maaaan" and "safe" or "pumping" are no doubt going to be regarded as POSH by people today!!!

LOL..hahahahaha ... sorry niranjana this statement made me crack up....init..hahahahah, chardikalaaaaaaaah man...lol :LOL: :lol: :LOL:

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Guest Javanmard

Indeed drawof I am only a piece of donkey's faeces.(whips himself slash slash). Someone just told me on pm that I wasn't a nice person and that I had an elephantine ego :cry: . I am not worthy (slash slash). Please all of you forgive me for just existing! Please forgive me (slash slash). :cry:

Actually...no it's ok...don't forgive me... 8)

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