Why Do So Many Upneh Drink?

[Mr Sardar]

VJKK VJKFji

Why do so many upna drink, like the amount of apna that drink is really high, even full dhara prakasha upna drink alot of our jathedars, gianis and raagis drink so many been caught out. It is a proper punjabi jatt culture thing offcourse not to Jatt but all punjabis but Sikhs in general have developed a full reputation for being piss-heads it seems virtually all of us drink. Every party, event, every type of social gathering Sikhs drinking at universities clubs etc. all are drinking and people expect things like sikh socitieis to cater for alcohol when some people hear Sikh they think ethnic group of people who drink there heads off. Why has it become so bad, even the most educated of us.

Rehat maryada forbid it, it is a kurieht, maharaj didn't allow us to drink. In the case where a Sikh does not drink he is related to being a Muslim and not a true Sikh in so many cases I have seen. There are so many health risks even though people say moderation is okay. Alcohol damages kidneys, livers and brain. People say that if you look at science it says alcohol can be good for you. Even the most senior respectable Sikhs drink. I have seen peoples families recked due to it, I have seen people ruin there education over it, there lifes and or the lives of there nearest and dearest. Why? Is it something we can try and stop? Or something we can raise up and make a stand against?

VJKK VJKFji

Edited February 9, 2011 by sarbatdapala

[Guest zulu]

Punjabi culture of 'Jattness' slipped through. <<Just my view, dont hate.

[jaikaara]

listen to those numbers, peeke daaaru, chalya theke te, whisky kamaal kar gai, all those lyrics, they drink beat their family members, and take pride.

[Guest zulu]

What must be said is why is it with us that we are soo proud that we drink? countless songs go on about glassy this glassy that, finish your drink whatnot...even songs which ive heard ''jado dhattt kaulde bottle da phir jattt kalllli karde khaade'' what kind of crap is that.

Very glorified.

[shaheediyan]

This is actually a very serious topic which always gets brushed under the carpet, you will notice our usually vocal members will stay quiet on this one.

Drinking bakwaas culture is actually the main reason many youth (esp) girls, find people from other faiths a more attractive and intelligent life partner choice. It is also the reason why so many youth have zero or little interest in our beautiful dharam, because they associate the actions/culture of their parents and wider community with the faith. Which is hard to differentiate on a typical wedding for instance - where after having Gurus pavitar darshan and cleaning our minds with the Laavan and taking karah Prasad, everyone goes to a hall to get drunk, and watch their womenfolk dance to pervy songs amongst other drunkards (balance off the morning spirituality overload).

I have 3 times in my life (as an Amritdhari) been quizzed by different Muslims when I have told them that I don't drink and nor is drinking a part of the faith. They were shocked to say the least. The same is true for a few gorai, although gorai seem to be better informed as the same amount of ignorance exists towards Sikhs from Muslims as vice versa.

Drinking i.e. men get ratted whilst the ladies stay sober (although this is rapidly changing from what I have observed in teh last few years) and drive their drunk bum husbands back home after the various parties, isn't considered highly 'equal', even though we shout the loudest about our equality.

Sadly, as is the case with the perception of Musalmaan in many ways (not all), our rvaaj will never be seperated from our dharam in the worlds and our childrens eyes. The only way to bring respect back to sikhi is to change our rvaaj. There are many beautiful aspects in Punjabi rvaaj, but sadly, most are near extinction, and drunkedness, fighting, being clueless about our dharam etc etc seems to be what we are becoming famous for.

Other serious issues are domestic violence, which I know 1st hand still happens amongst many Punjabi families where drinking is a daily routine. What parchaar, kirtan, simran, amritvela, education or success of any kind can there be in a household where pooja of sharaab is done...?

Although the stereotype of certain jaaths being famous for retaining this tradition still hold true - today there is no differentiation. Jatts, Lohars, Thrkaans, Chumaars, Shimbai what have you - all have the same rvaaj. Maybe the only exception are Kabuli Singhs - who although coming from a Muslim country, still hold strong to their Sikhi in many ways. Same way devout Sikhs today are not limited to certain jaaths, they can be found anywhere and everywhere. The sad truth (which I have seen 1st hand with many friends who 'converted to Sikhi) - is that Punjabi parents would rather their kids be 'normal' and kao peeyo ash karo mitero, than take amrit. In many, many households, a child growing a daara and adopting a spiritual lifestyle is looked at as a sign of parental failure and embarresment, same goes for girls.

[dalsingh101]

Drinking bakwaas culture is actually the main reason many youth (esp) girls, find people from other faiths a more attractive and intelligent life partner choice.

Although I do believe this is a factor in some of those situations you speak of, I think it is a GROSS simplification of the multiple factors that can and do lead to what you are talking about.

I can also point out the scores of girls from religious/conservative homes who slut about like animals on heat at the first taste of freedom (usually at uni). Sometimes you see these girls when they are younger at the Gurdwara, and the depressed 'clueless' look on their faces says it all. They look like they have hardly ever experienced anything outside of what limited stuff their family allow. (See the piece by a janani below for an inside view). All in all, I think there a number of sometimes complex issues that leads to girls doing a runner with some lover boy. It isn't just in families that drink, although this doesn't condone that pisshead mentality. There is a mosaic of social, psychological and emotional issues at play in my opinion.

It is also the reason why so many youth have zero or little interest in our beautiful dharam, because they associate the actions/culture of their parents and wider community with the faith.

Yes, this is one factor - the hypocrisy. But it happens in religious families who all of a sudden become casteist, when it comes to marriage time (i.e. the majority). Plus our own girls are frequently little spoilt 'princesses' and often up their own arse because they haven't been taught proper boundaries by doting, status obsessed parents.

This will be controversial but it is foolish to think that we can simply throw doing more bani, going Gurdwara etc. at complicated, multilayered social phenomena.

By guptkuri on Sikhsangat.com

Conversion of Sikh Girls

Who falls prey?

The Sikh community is waking up from a long sleep of neglect of the female child to find that their daughters are being converted out of the faith they were born in. Websites, blogs, Youtube videos are being made daily to wake up our daughters so we can save them. But sometimes we forget that just as much effort needs to be made to wake up our parents and our leaders so our daughters can be raised never to become victims of extremists that try to convert them. How can we blame the girl alone, when her upbringing left her vulnerable? Sikh girls that are raised to be the perfect obedient daughters or to be the daughter with great independence or the ones that never had to see any problems.

Every parents dream is that their daughter is this perfect daughter that is obedient and always listens to her parents. But at what cost? The obedience is taught by force, not by reasoning or friendly explanation. Listening to some of the mothers of the daughters that converted you hear them talk about their daughter never going anywhere without family, being a straight A student and helping in the house; in short being the perfect child. These perfect daughters try to do everything to make their parents happy but somewhere deep down they always feel they don't get the love in return they deserve. They feel this way either because their brothers are treated better even though they don't do half the work the girls are required to do or they feel their small mistakes are punished too harshly. In short when someone else offers the girl the love she feels she deserves, she gets blinded by it and is unable to see past it. And that false sense of love and security makes her lose the real love and security offered by family. But once the mistake is realized it is her family is not always willing to take her back and let things go back to normal. The once perfect obedient daughter is now an outcast, with nowhere to go.

The daughter with too many liberties is just as much of easy target as the obedient daughter for conversion into another faith, mostly Islam. The daughter with the strict parents leaves her faith and family for some love, the daughter with easy going parents leaves her faith for some discipline. These girls are brainwashed into believing that all their lives they have sinned and the only way they can be saved is through Islam. Because that is the only religion that forces girls to complete cover up and be protected from the bad eyes of men. What they aren't taught is how the women are treated in Islam. But the point is the party girl is made to believe through Islam, she can finally settle down and live a respectable life. Her parents don't object because they have always given their daughter the freedom to make her choices. For love, for sense of discipline she leaves her family and her religion. Which she could have got in her family but no one tried to teach her about her religion and the meaning of love was completely distorted.

Punjabi parents typically want to solve all the problems for their daughters before they can even know they have a problem. But what they don't realize is that they are setting their daughters up for a great downfall later in life. Not only will she be unable to face problems in life when her parents can't be there for her but she is open to being tricked into converting. When her family is not around anyone can come up to her and try to teach her that if she accepts a certain religion she won't have problems anymore. And if by some odd chance of fate, her problem does go away after trying something of a new fate, she is sold for life. Not only she will convert but she will try to get people around her to convert, to solve their problems also. These kindof converts are the worst because they take down a lot more people with them and then they have nowhere to turn when they realize that religion is not a magic solution to make your problems disappear. Religion can teach us how to cope with problems, not magically make them all disappear, that is up to God.

Most girls that fall into conversion traps grow up without a strong presence of religion in their lives and are raised on culture values. To really help our daughters, sisters we need to bring Sikhism back into their lives and the lives of their parents. The only way for us to really do that is not by hard core scare tactics talking about all the negatives of Islam nor is it to be done by forcing them to listen to hours of Gurbani. It can only be done by the Gurudwara Committees and parents stepping up the game by hosting fun events like trips to amusement parks, camping, hiking and other similar events that are not against principles of Sikhism and mixing in the fun with education. Once someone learns about the basics of Sikhism, they become more open to learning more on their own. And that is another place where we fall behind; the answer we give for everything is listen to Gurbani. Our Gurudwara Sahibs have to take the first step and hold regular discussions on Sikhism so people can ask their questions and learn more. Educate properly in a fun manner on Sikhism, conversion rates will drop. Simple as that.

May Waheguru Ji give us strength to fight the extremist of all faiths and make this world a nicer place to live in.

Anyway, now we've cleared that. I will add something to the general point about Sikhs and alcohol. I think it is an area where I have had much experience as I worked in and around the Panjabi dominated alcohol trade as a youth and have seen many alcohol loving Sikhs (including those in the family) up close over a long time.

Edited February 11, 2011 by dalsingh101

[Mr Sardar]

Kabuli sikhs drink as well alot of the men drink in there homes they are more on hidding it, but with afghan sikh youth (more with guys) they do sleep around and drink, enough stories. Thing is most of Indian and African origin sikhs talk or integrate with them at all another factor of our self-destruction to know this stuff about them, I have heard them even say they are not sikh and use evil terms for them, also alot of us are unwilling to integrate- integration is a 2 way process and as a small minority of a community we are, we really must MUST integrate and see each other as one and learn from each other our history and religion which is very scarse.

With the conversion thing- expect more and more sikhs (your own children, your family, your spouse maybe even you yourself one day) to become muslims because spirtual experiences have been drained out by people playing politics in gurdwara like the baba who thinks he is god or the president who thinks he is the king and stays there or the giani/raagi who gets drunk, eats meat (cooks it in the gurdwara) and ends up raping or commiting pedophile to a member of the sangat these stories are getting too common. An unwilingness to preach in english and place masses of literature in english is going to make the problem worse - there is alot of ignorance in our own community and false pride also within das as well. We all need to start with ourselves making ourselves better to make the difference. In terms of alcohol we need to do proactive diplomatic non-judgmental talks and presentations in gurdwaras highlighting these risks asking doctors to go into this as well into the newly accepted religious cult of religion of science we have today.

Edited February 11, 2011 by sarbatdapala

[HSD1]

Drinking bakwaas culture is actually the main reason many youth (esp) girls, find people from other faiths a more attractive and intelligent life partner choice.

Wait a minute, wasnt bollywood responsible for this? Or have you changed your mind?

Anyway, do sikhs living in muslim countries have problems with drinking?

And whilst we're on the topic of drink, how come no one has brought up drugs? Not just the hard stuff the freshies do, but all the sikhs in the uk who smoke cigarettes?

[Mr Sardar]

Drugs are really bad in our community, also a newer problem is the rise in punjabi prostitutes now. But what are our gurdwaras doing about this are we still going to have these same parcharaks comming in who have almost let a generation loose sikhi due to language barier. What are we who gathered the little scarse we know about sikhism to do about all of this. When our jathedars and leaders are all alcoholics.

Edited February 11, 2011 by sarbatdapala

[dalsingh101]

It has to be said, we do have some serious 'nasha loving' issues across the panth. Be it drugs or booze.

Not only in terms of taking them...but the WAY some apnay take them...excess AND A HALF!

Edited February 11, 2011 by dalsingh101

[Mr Sardar]

It is time to make a stand against it, to voice out against it just like this guy did with http://www.chaupaisahib.org/ website we can come together maybe even something from the entire sikhawareness team against alcohol for the panth to out voice even our own jathedars who are sharabi themselves and all the elders who drink openly amongst sikhs. Let's make a productive campaign in the sikh world for this cause.

[Guest zulu]

I must say that I think it would be hard to get rid of the drinking culture as its soo deeply rooted within our society!

[dalsingh101]

It is time to make a stand against it, to voice out against it just like this guy did with http://www.chaupaisahib.org/ website we can come together maybe even something from the entire sikhawareness team against alcohol for the panth to out voice even our own jathedars who are sharabi themselves and all the elders who drink openly amongst sikhs. Let's make a productive campaign in the sikh world for this cause.

My family (which has a few moderate and hard drinkers) would laugh in the face of anyone who tried this. I think a much better idea would be to use a scientific approach using statistics from the NHS and imagery to scare people in the newer generations.

Look at Paul 'Gazza' Gasciogne for an example of how someone can keep drinking despite all manner of problems with it for an example.

You have to leave the olders and focus on the younger generation. I have a feeling that Panjabi Sikhs are probably disproportionately represented in the liver problem statistics.

But, to balance the whole issue out (and not to condone drinking) I feel I should write about this. I had a teetotal 'uncle ji' who developed diabetes with his blood sugars all over the place. The medicine was only partially effective. In desperation he followed the advice an old goray suggested, which was to have (strictly) one/two shots of whiskey every second day (max) before bed or straight after any heavy evening meal. The results were almost immediate he told me and lowered and stablised his levels.

When some of us looked into it, it had scientific basis in that the liver apparently utilises sugar quite heavily to process/clean the bodily system of alcohol, which leads to it being sucked out of his blood stream. And yes, their is a question about the possible knock on effect on the liver from this.

Again, please don't think of this as condoning typically hard drinking behavior from our lot. But I do think that we need to break the cycle that has it perpetuating in families over generations.

Edited February 12, 2011 by dalsingh101

[Xylitol]

i don't believe science or discussion of social ills will prevent the older generation from indulging. Only liver disease or another serious ailment will. When I was younger (pre-Sikhi), I knew about the science but ignored it b/c, like most others, I thought that it wouldn't happen to me. Luckily I got into Sikhi and away from partying so it never did happen. Anyways, I think getting them while their young, combined with other emotional type appeals, or dharmic appeals, would make the biggest difference.

I have noticed that the pracharaks who have some kamai tend to be much more effective in their prachaar regarding these kinds of things.

not that it hurts to try those other approaches of course. At least some would respond to those.

Edited February 12, 2011 by Xylitol

[Guest zulu]

Xylitol....what is the drinking culture like in canada? I'm guessing just as bad as the UK? first/second gen of immigrants from india loving their desi?

[Mr Sardar]

If we can get Badal and or Captain Arminder Singh and or Primeminister Manmohan Singh to hold campaigns from medical viewpoint enforced with rehat ontop and other religious view points if possible to have a wide spread effect. If anyone has an abilitiy to get an audience with one of those guys have such a discussion.

[Mr Sardar]

One of the biggest effects that we can have is if Dr Manmohan Singh or the president of India can declare amritsar as a holy state banning alcohol and meat in Amritsar distrinct this will do alot. nehru and gandhi promoised laws to be passed for sikhs so maybe it is time such a law is passed for sikhs in a democratic country. These items are not allowed on site of any Gurdwara anyway and there are many holy cities in India who have enforced such law so in the rights of sikhs it would be most just such a law comes into effect.

Edited February 14, 2011 by sarbatdapala

[Xylitol]

drinking culture in canada is probably very similar to UK. But alcohol is not as freely available, we don't seem to have as many pubs, the age limits are higher, and although alcohol is embedded in the culture (desi and white), it doesn't seem to be as much so as in UK white culture. Don't know about desis compared in both places, but I imagine availability and mainstream culture have an influence. It's still really bad here though.

[dalsingh101]

drinking culture in canada is probably very similar to UK.

I doubt that very much. Canadians aren't really known to behave like the working class English on holidays. Plus my cousin tells me it's very different. Getting drunk and ending up in a puddle of your own puke is a normal weekend activity for hordes over here. Binge drinking is a big problem too.

Edited February 16, 2011 by dalsingh101

[chatanga1]

Punjabi culture of 'Jattness' slipped through. <<Just my view, dont hate.

too simplistic. there are far more jatts who are muslims than sikhs, yet do they have the problems that we do with alcohol?

It comes down to changing perceptions of certain acts. Once unmarried mothers were very shameful, even upto the 1980s, but now its not news at all, because there are so many girls who have become unmarried mothers.

Sikhs in greater numbers have began to drink, so that its now news if someone doesnt drink. reeti rvaaj has changed meaning that very few sikhs see sin in alcohol.

the same for keeping kes as well, the perception amongst sikhs had become that there is absolutely no sin in cutting kes. Once the fear of sin goes, then the floodgates open.

[chatanga1]

This is actually a very serious topic which always gets brushed under the carpet, you will notice our usually vocal members will stay quiet on this one.

You're talking about Neo Singh arent you.

[SURYADEV]

You're talking about Neo Singh arent you.

Na yaar .hes talking about Tony.

PS though I will hold my peace in this thread!

now.....wheres my ccharoo gone???

Edited February 16, 2011 by SURYADEV

[dalsingh101]

too simplistic. there are far more jatts who are muslims than sikhs, yet do they have the problems that we do with alcohol?

It comes down to changing perceptions of certain acts. Once unmarried mothers were very shameful, even upto the 1980s, but now its not news at all, because there are so many girls who have become unmarried mothers.

Sikhs in greater numbers have began to drink, so that its now news if someone doesnt drink. reeti rvaaj has changed meaning that very few sikhs see sin in alcohol.

Thats' too simplistic itself. How do we account for the fact that we have a few very early (i.e. late 1700s) European accounts of Singhs drinking. If it really was taboo back then, surely those people would have noted it, like they did with hair cutting, tobacco and beef eating etc?

I'm not condoning Panjabi alcoholism by the above before anyone jumps on that. Anyway, to be dead serious, some of you guys are really disconnected with typical Panjabi behaviour, I know for myself and hordes of apnay growing up, they are more likely to see older male role models types (uncles, dads etc.) drink than pray. That's the ground reality for MANY apnay.

Guys growing up around this kind of stuff doesn't help either:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mp6DMzqbDw4&playnext=1&list=PLCB00AB826EDF6B3F

Edited February 16, 2011 by dalsingh101

[chatanga1]

Na yaar .hes talking about Tony.

I KNEW THAT!!! i was just joking. cant beleive you fell for it.

[chatanga1]

Thats' too simplistic itself. How do we account for the fact that we have a few very early (i.e. late 1700s) European accounts of Singhs drinking.

do you think that the drinking at this time may have been limited to those who were Misldaars or high ranking officers rather than your average panjabi tara, dara and hari?