Amrit, Duality, Pany-Payaras

[Xylitol]

A lot of arguments against your position are going hugely off the main topic of conversation, and thus don't make much sense. Bottomline is that it is Hukam, and for us in our dharm, we are supposed to accept that. Guru ji himself tells us to learn about the Guru's teachings from the sants, and that is what the sants teach. Take it or leave it. 

[CdnSikhGirl]

That was for paapiman by the way those pics reference his firefighting statement. ( Paapiman lets see YOUR firefighting pics!! ) And yes I passed every test required!! Sorry I couldn't edit my last post to fix the spelling error 'bye' should have been btw. I am in Srinagar Kashmir and wifi is spotty here.

Anyway Panj Pyaras issue is a non issue as SRM states women can be just as men can be.  And we shouldn't go against the Rehet Maryada. Whether or not you like it... It's there and it states both can be.  Damdami Taksal etc don't speak for the whole panth - example clearly seen by the huge backlash on Hari Singh Randhawa worldwide. 

Edited September 2, 2015 by Satkirin_Kaur

[Harjots8963]

That was for paapiman by the way those pics reference his firefighting statement. ( Paapiman lets see YOUR firefighting pics!! ) And yes I passed every test required!! Sorry I couldn't edit my last post to fix the spelling error 'bye' should have been btw. I am in Srinagar Kashmir and wifi is spotty here.

Anyway Panj Pyaras issue is a non issue as SRM states women can be just as men can be.  And we shouldn't go against the Rehet Maryada. Whether or not you like it... It's there and it states both can be.  Damdami Taksal etc don't speak for the whole panth - example clearly seen by the huge backlash on Hari Singh Randhawa worldwide. 

Ughhhh,

It has already been explained why SRM is not official and was not accepted, yet you left that thread and keep going on about this stuff.

[Guest]

Can we lock this thread now?

[paapiman]

Correct me, if wrong - The so-called SRM does not even talk about Chatka maryada of the panth. How come they missed, such an important tradition of the Sikh panth?

Hypocrisy in the so-called SRM - They don't allow disabled people to be part of Panj Pyaray. Why is that? How come they agree to this portion of Sikh practice, but allow women? Please have a look below. 

Quote

The five beloved ones who administer ambrosial baptism should not include a disabled person,
such as a person who is blind or blind in one eye, lame, one with a broken or disabled limb,

Unquote [1]

[1] - Sikh Rehat Maryada

The above are more reasons, why this so-called SRM needs to be discarded asap. Women are not allowed to be part of Panj Pyaray, as ordained by divine law. No one should change that.

Bhul chuk maaf

 

Edited September 2, 2015 by paapiman

[paapiman]

In addition to the above, there is no mention of trans-genders in this so-called SRM document. Why discriminate against them?

In DDT RM, it mentions the term "Singh", which excludes other genders.

Bhul chuk maaf

[paapiman]

Bottomline is that it is Hukam, and for us in our dharm, we are supposed to accept that. Guru ji himself tells us to learn about the Guru's teachings from the sants, and that is what the sants teach. Take it or leave it. 

The above should seal this topic.

N30 paaji - lock this topic, if you want.

Bhul chuk maaf

[Koi]

On a lighter note, I am anxiously waiting for the day that Satkiran Kaur ji gives us the good news' that:

A) she has taken amrit, and

B) she has gotten married!

Looking forward to it :)

[paapiman]

On a lighter note, I am anxiously waiting for the day that Satkiran Kaur ji gives us the good news' that:

A) she has taken amrit, and

B) she has gotten married!

Looking forward to it :)

This is a Gurmukh's way of thinking.

Dhan Guru Nanak ............Tu heen Nirankaar

Bhl chuk maaf

[paapiman]

This might sound a bit off-topic, but have a look below. The big difference in male and female strength.

Quote

U.S. Marine Corps spokesman Captain Eric Flanagan stated that 55% of female recruits tested at the end of boot camp were unable to do three pull-ups as compared to 1 percent of male recruits. 

Unquote [1]

 

See, what it says later:

 

Quote

Three pull-ups? Really?  I’m an old guy with two rotator cuff surgeries and can still do 15-20 during a routine workout.

Unquote [1]

 

[1] - http://www.avoiceformen.com/feminism/feminist-lies-feminism/as-expected-physical-fitness-standards-lowered-and-delayed-again-for-female-us-military-members/

 

If one can question, why women cannot be in Panj Pyaray (God's order), then one can even question God, why did he make females (on average) very weak compared to men. Even some races (on average) are physically weaker than others. One can start complaining about that too.

Bottom line: Accept God's will and his orders 

PS - Nirmalay, Sewapanthis, Udhasis, Nihangs, Nanaksar, DDT, etc, all together can speak for the Panth, as they are the authentic sects of Sikhism.

Bhul chuk maaf

Edited September 3, 2015 by paapiman

[Xylitol]

chall fer Satkiran ji. We agree to disagree :)

Congrats btw.

[paapiman]

The fact will not change - Women are better at child rearing, than men. Even their brains are designed by God, to do that after child birth.

Quote 

After childbirth, new neurochemical pathways are formed in a mother's brain to reinforce maternal behavior, new responses, and priorities. Her brain and reality have both been transformed. And because of regular oxytocin rewards, the bonding and caring hormone, even fathers, adoptive parents, and care givers can experience similar differences when in close daily contact with an infant.

Unquote [1]

[1] - http://www.mindbodygreen.com/0-17814/what-you-need-to-know-about-the-female-brain.html

 

If men start taking care of babies, it is a possibility that emotional/psychological problems start popping up with children. Going against nature might have some serious ramifications.

Bhul chuk maaf

More importance of women in child rearing.

Quote

The mother is then to breast-feed the child, from this the child should become virtuous, a warrior, saintly, charitable and a vibrant Gursikh

Unquote [1]

Quote

Mothers are to maintain a strong level of Sikh discipline. Daily after their Nitnem (prayer recital) they should go to the Gurdwara Sahib17, listen to discourses of Gur mat,18 Sikh History and Kirtan, taking their young children with them. The experiences of childhood become engraved on the child like a carving on a stone.

Unquote [1]

[1] - Gurmat Rehat Maryada

Bhul chuk maaf

 

 

Edited September 5, 2015 by paapiman

[paapiman]

On 8/22/2015 at 6:05 AM, ibrute said:

I have heard in katha, that one abhiyasi (highly spiritual stage) was sitting during the amrit sanchaar ceremony solely for this purpose alone that whether women who partake in panj pyaare were actually able to initiate the askers. He told that NO panj pyaare whether "men or women" can initiate the new ones, because only Guru has the right to initiate the new comers. So what actually happens in the ceremony is, after panj pyaare do ardas to start the sanchaar process by first reading five bani's. Then they collectively do ardas along with sangat to Guru Granth Sahib Jee maharaj to allow them to distribute the amrit to the seekers. Now, here is what happens as this highly spiritual told us, light(jot) from Guru Granth Sahib enters the body of the panj pyaare's and Guru himself initiate the new ones. He says that women who were in panj pyaare service, light did not enter their body, so real amrit process is interrupted; though outwardly we can say we got amrit. Also light did not enter disabled ones too.

 

Please listen to Gyani Thakur Singh jee. The light (Prakash) did not enter the Panj Pyaray, as a woman was part of them. Practical proof of why women can never be part of Panj Pyaray.

Please listen after 7.00 min:

 

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[CdnSikhGirl]

@amardeep

this is what I am talking about.... ^^^

insyead of the possibility that maybe the light didn't enter them because of their gian, their level of spirituality... It MUST be because a woman was part LOL  blame it on the woman!!! Haha or possibly someone talking out their... Making up reasons to discriminate. 

By the way GURBANI says the divine light is already in ALL. So nothing is coming or going... In essence ALL is that ONE light anyway! 

Page 20, Line 8
ਘਟਿ ਘਟਿ ਜੋਤਿ ਨਿਰੰਤਰੀ ਬੂਝੈ ਗੁਰਮਤਿ ਸਾਰੁ ॥੪॥
Gẖat gẖat joṯ niranṯrī būjẖai gurmaṯ sār. ||4||
One who sees that Light within each and every heart understands the Essence of the Guru's Teachings. ||4||

[Guest guest]

???

you say that you don't see gender differences any more yet "However, I can't justify doing something which sees me as inferior or incapable compared to him" 

why are you even still seeing him as a 'him'?  also, since there are no real gender differences, why do you care about being seen as inferior?

 

[CdnSikhGirl]

Let me rephrase that... I don't want to support a philosophy that perpetuates women being given less privilege compared to men. Precisely because I see that same light in both so it's unfair. 

If u have two kids one with brown hair and one with blond. Can you justify telling one kid he has more rights because he has blond hair while other has to live with lesser role because he has brown hair??? Especially when the things he is restricted from have nothing to do with hair or its colour???

what it comes down to is there is nothing in Sikhi that says to restrict women from anything. The people who do so are attached to some tradition that just happened because they fear change. Just because that's how you have been doing something doesn't mean it was ever mean to become tradition... It's just how it happened. And traditions can change for positive. Be all inclusive... As long as the person is Amritdhari follows Rehet and is high avastha they can do seva as Panj pyaras. Nothing exists explicitly saying no they can't. And nothing proves what guru Ji wanted either way.  And Panth has authority to make decisions. 

Guest Ji your personal feelings regarding women as Panj pyaras tells more about your own personality and fear of women and change than Sikhi. Case in point since same light is in all then why can't u accept women doing this seva?? Why can u just follow Gurbani and treat everyone with a single eye of equality and see the same divine light in everyone?? Says more about u then me...

[Ragmaala]

Most people who take Amrit are innocent & naive about deeper understandings of Sikhism. They are only taking an admission yet. I think it will be unfair if these naive people are asked to take Amrit from a  Woman Panj Pyara.

Having said this, those who have knowledge of arguments of both sides, for & against Woman Panj pyara, should have the choice of taking Amrit from a Jatha who has Woman Panj Pyara. They can do this at their own risk.

So options should be open for both parties.

But Naive innocent people should not be thrown into this controversy.

The reason I say risk, is because no one knows for 100% if a woman panj pyara is okay. The arguments maybe good. But no one can be 100% sure.

So just to be on safe side, we should follow tradition & take amrit from men panj pyare, esp for new Sikhs.  Those who are already educated can do it on their own accord.

ps. Giani ji presented a good anecdote, it can be real or unreal, but for sure it cannot be dismissed.

This is not show women down, women can be encouraged to be a Panj pyari, but the sangat should be aware in advance, there should be no surprises. And it should be fair for Sangat.

 

[Singh123456777]

2 minutes ago, Ragmaala said:

Most people who take Amrit are innocent & naive about deeper understandings of Sikhism. They are only taking an admission yet. I think it will be unfair if these naive people are asked to take Amrit from a  Woman Panj Pyara.

Having said this, those who have knowledge of arguments of both sides, for & against Woman Panj pyara, should have the choice of taking Amrit from a Jatha who has Woman Panj Pyara. They can do this at their own risk.

So options should be open for both parties.

But Naive innocent people should not be thrown into this controversy.

The reason I say risk, is because no one knows for 100% if a woman panj pyara is okay. The arguments maybe good. But no one can be 100% sure.

So just to be on safe side, we should follow tradition & take amrit from men panj pyare, esp for new Sikhs.  Those who are already educated can do it on their own accord.

ps. Giani ji presented a good anecdote, it can be real or unreal, but for sure it cannot be dismissed.

 

I fully agree

[Ragmaala]

Just now, Singh123456777 said:

I fully agree

Thanks brother.

[CdnSikhGirl]

9 minutes ago, Ragmaala said:

Most people who take Amrit are innocent & naive about deeper understandings of Sikhism. They are only taking an admission yet. I think it will be unfair if these naive people are asked to take Amrit from a  Woman Panj Pyara.

Having said this, those who have knowledge of arguments of both sides, for & against Woman Panj pyara, should have the choice of taking Amrit from a Jatha who has Woman Panj Pyara. They can do this at their own risk.

So options should be open for both parties.

But Naive innocent people should not be thrown into this controversy.

The reason I say risk, is because no one knows for 100% if a woman panj pyara is okay. The arguments maybe good. But no one can be 100% sure.

So just to be on safe side, we should follow tradition & take amrit from men panj pyare, esp for new Sikhs.  Those who are already educated can do it on their own accord.

ps. Giani ji presented a good anecdote, it can be real or unreal, but for sure it cannot be dismissed.

This is not show women down, women can be encouraged to be a Panj pyari, but the sangat should be aware in advance, there should be no surprises. And it should be fair for Sangat.

 

For me it's a no brainer... Gurbani says these bodies are FALSE. That includes the gender. TRUE reality is formless ONEness nirankar.  And ultimate reality is only ONE light. We are ALL WITHIN and a PART of that ONE light!  

Ask yourself if you are in the dark, even tiniest candle will dispell the darkness right? Gurbani says that SAME divine light is in ALL. That's not all males... it means ALL. This idea of women not being able to be Panj Pyaras is only caused by doubt in MENS minds caused by Ego identity which only seeks to divide and live through duality. If you truly want to seek ONEness... then you can't do so unless you include women in that.  Stop trying to suggest we have taken risk by taking amrit from group who allows women. our very seat of authority Akal Takht has made it clear already.  By saying this, you will only cast doubt in new Sikh's minds... and thus create MORE duality and division. 

We DO very much a direct authority we can ask regarding this or anything!!!! GURBANI!

Gurbani is also clear on this: The "light" is already within ALL of us! And a GURMUKH would see all with a single eye of equality. Now the meaning of "single eye" means justice.  Its saying that justice is that all are treated equally. Meaning nobody should be given any privilege over others based on false statuses. Gurbani condemns duality as being false, and ONEness as being Truth.  How can we have ONEness if we operate through Ego and try to find reasons, doubts, etc to only divide us more?? 

Page 20, Line 8
ਘਟਿ ਘਟਿ ਜੋਤਿ ਨਿਰੰਤਰੀ ਬੂਝੈ ਗੁਰਮਤਿ ਸਾਰੁ ॥੪॥
Gẖat gẖat joṯ niranṯrī būjẖai gurmaṯ sār. ||4||
One who sees that Light within each and every heart understands the Essence of the Guru's Teachings. ||4||

Page 599, Line 2
ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਏਕ ਦ੍ਰਿਸਟਿ ਕਰਿ ਦੇਖਹੁ ਘਟਿ ਘਟਿ ਜੋਤਿ ਸਮੋਈ ਜੀਉ ॥੨॥
गुरमुखि एक द्रिसटि करि देखहु घटि घटि जोति समोई जीउ ॥२॥
Gurmukẖ ek ḏarisat kar ḏekẖhu gẖat gẖat joṯ samo▫ī jī▫o. ||2||
As Gurmukh, look upon all with the single eye of equality; in each and every heart, the Divine Light is contained. ||2||

[GurpreetKaur]

10 minutes ago, CdnSikhGirl said:

For me it's a no brainer... Gurbani says these bodies are FALSE. That includes the gender. TRUE reality is formless ONEness nirankar.  And ultimate reality is only ONE light. We are ALL WITHIN and a PART of that ONE light!  

 

 

If bodies are False, don't you think you are giving it too much importance when you want equal rights( which are not universal)?

[CdnSikhGirl]

Also, someone brand new to Sikhi would likely not be jumping right into Amrit anyway... So yes, they have choice to take AMrit from group who has women and they should be given all the facts:

- Nothing in Gurbani to say otherwise
- Nothing in Guru Ji 52Hukams to say otherwise
- Gurbani actually INSTRUCTS us to see everyone equally (see above)
- SRM specifically states both women and men can be Panj Pyaras
- DDTs RM states that creation of the Khalsa ELIMINATED all such differences, INCLUDING GENDER. 
- No RM specifically says women are not allowed
- Amrit Sanchar is spiritual rebirth and souls are all formless (having no gender) so why would a penis be required?
- Guru Ji called for five HEADS that day. It was not a test to single out women. If a woman had risen do you think he would have said sorry sister this is only for the guys. It happened that the five were male but it doesnt mean he forever put a ban on women
 

Since there is no definitive anything saying women can not. Then the only thing which is keeping women from doing it are the Singhs!  Keeping a tradition that happened for no other reason than "that's how we have been doing it" but does Sikhi uphold a tradition that exists for no other reason than to discriminate??? I don't think so!

 

[Ragmaala]

I agree that the light is in all, the same in man & woman. And Gurbani instructs us to see light in all.

But we have to be fair for everyone.  There are good arguments on both sides. So people for like whose minds are still clouded by EGO, and cannot see the light we need a method too. So to be on the safe side, we simple follow old tradition.

As I said , an option should be available for those who want to take it from women.

But in the name of justice, and fairness, both sides should be presented to new sangat, & let them decide what they want. They should not be unfairly pushed into taking amrit from a woman panj pyara,:) They should have a choice.

 

[Ragmaala]

1 minute ago, CdnSikhGirl said:

Also, someone brand new to Sikhi would likely not be jumping right into Amrit anyway...

 

FYI, most people start off Sikhi by jumping straight into sikhi, esp in Punjab. So it will be unfair for those people.

But as I said, those who have knowledge & education like you, can decide on their own. Given, they have good knowledge of both arguments.

We need a method, that works for all. 

 

[CdnSikhGirl]

3 minutes ago, GurpreetKaur said:

If bodies are False, don't you think you are giving it too much importance when you want equal rights( which are not universal)?

No because this position is the highest honour position a Sikh can be asked to do. And it directly deals with our spiritual advancement. If ALL SIkhs are to strive to take Amrit, and only males can give amrit, then that says women are somehow lacking spiritually and need to be pulled along by the men.  Its saying women require men to advance spiritually but then men do not require women.  But this goes against Gurbani saying that these bodies are false and that soul is genderless.  Gurbani should be the final say. And it's pretty clear on everyone being treated equally. 

Anyway I HAVE taken Amrit. And the Panj Pyaras SPECIFICALLY TOLD US THAT WOMEN CAN DO THIS SEVA. And not only that they told us they WANT TO SEE SOME OF US in their position someday!!!!  They were not afraid of women!  They were HUGELY EMPOWERING!!!  Remember they said this DURING THE AMRIT SANCHAR!!!!! So if Guru Ji actually enters the Panj Pyaras, then it was GURU JI SAYING THIS!!!!!!