mrsingh

Ideally yes bir'ay ... but its ok to be called Jung Singh (Bramptonwala) to avoid confusion on occasion.


Jaikaara Ji, presumably you are aware that 90% of the Khalsa Sant-Sipahi in the Ramgarhia Misl were of non-tharkhan ancestry? Ie the sons of erstwhile Brahmins, Jatts, Saini's, Shoemakers, Mazhabi's etc, etc all fought under the leadership of Sardar Jassa Singh (Ramgarhia Misl). The proportion of those of non-kalal ancestry fight under the esteemed leadership of Sardar Jassa Singh (Ahluwalia) was even greater than 90%. That says it all about how united, how casteless our Panth was previously in history and how disgraceful we are in 2014 to have fallen below those levels of adherence to Gurmat. The least we should do is strive for all Gurdwara's to be saanjhe and united within 5 years, matrimonial apartheid to be left as the preserve of Hindu's and Muslims and for all social stratification within the Panth to be eliminated not only on our hearts but also as visibly seen in academic results of all whether poor or rich, timka ja flaana.


It has existed. The Panj Piare are the foremost and first example of that as a microcosm. For a hundred odd years such a society was mirrored ... our departure from the ethos of the founding principles of the Khalsa Panth have led us to where we are today in 2014.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KDZBKeI4ac8




Bhai Lalo Ji and Sardar Jassa Singh and Bhai Sukha Singh ... none of them gave a damn about the fictitous imaginary Vishwakarma.

They saw themselves as Sikhs alone. Their orginal ancestry simply highlights their immense contribution to Sikh itihaas (as many enemies of Sikh like to portray us as being only from ancestry that comprises less than 50% of the Panth) . Sikhi alone defined them and all of our Panth de Heere.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fi5ZV9LeVk0

Sikhi refutues tribal identity as an utter irrelavance and total falsehood.

Vasakhi 1699 and the birth of the Khalsa Panth instruct us clearly on that.

Given that Guru Sahib told us to abandon our tribal history and drop our gotra's do you think it was probable that Guru Sahib would waste time in the middle of fighting for Sarbat Da Bhala, fighting oppression, fighting for the needs of the poor and oppressed etc, etc to mention the history of his supposed lineage given that Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj continually stressed the need for "kul nash" (non-tribal identity). Please read what Dr Davinder Singh from Grand Prairie, Alberta and Global Sikh Studies has to say in his analysis of that.

I believe Gurmat advises us that we should never use caste-affiliated Gotra's (though the odd geographic village based names may help avoid confusion if used without pride in brackets).

Harjot Paji relax. There is no hate. This is a civilised discussion of two different ideological positions.
You believe in the DDT Maryada. Fine. I respect your right to believe that way.
However, what you need to appreciate is why the majority of the Sikh Panth do not and will never accept the DDT Maryada.
Damdami Taksal are well known and historically documented for having refused Amrit to Mazhabi Sikhs prior to the 1930's.
And there of further reports of them having carried out such blatant anti-Sikh discrimination even after that.
Then comes DDT's unforgivable support of Indira Gandhi + Congress in the 1980 elections. A decision hated by most of the Panth.
If it was not for Sant Jarnail Singh Ji, the name Damdami Taksal (first mentioned in the 1970's) would have faded away from Panthic consciousness as the Sanatan sect that refused Amrit to Mazhabi Sikhs and supported Indira Gandhi in the 1980 elections, which in turn led to the next 35 years of suffering for the Panth.
So I respectfully ask you to see why other Sikhs that are the majority of the Panth are not open to accepting the DDT Maryada.
There is not a shred of hatred and I don't believe Dhumma followers need to abandon their Maryada or respect for Sri Chand.
Let all Sikhs believe what they want and let us respect that those that follow a slightly different Maryada can still be considered Sikhs but obviously where some disagree with DDT ideology vis a vis impurity we will all agree to disagree.
 

Paapi presumably like Dhumma you fully agree with Damdami Taksal's support for Indira Gandhi and Congress in the 1980 elections.
Damdami Taksal have a different Rahiraas to the majority of the Panth. Why should the Panth accept their Rahiraas?
You paapi man are a non-Sikh as you openly proclaim and admit yourself.
It's fine if you want to worship Vishnu and Ram Chander but why can't you see that others do not wish to do so.
Longowal's Akali Dal, Singh Sabha, AKJ, missionaries etc all fully opposed Indira Gandhi and Congress in the 1980 elections. Only Damdami Taksal and Santa Sinh's Buddha Dal supported Indira Gandhi.
Had Indira Gandhi been defeated in 1980 then the last 35years of suffering the Panth has endured may never have come to pass.
 
 
This is Damdami Taksal's Rahiraas:
 
(Damdami Taksal worships Ram Chander and Vishnu):
ਦੋਹਰਾ॥
ਰਾਮ ਕਥਾ ਜੁਗ ਜੁਗ ਅਟਲ ਸਭ ਕੋਈ ਭਾਖਤ ਨੇਤ॥
ਸੁਰਗ ਬਾਸ ਰਘੁਬਰ ਕਰਾ ਸਗਰੀ ਪੁਰੀ ਸਮੇਤ॥1॥
ਚੌਪਈ॥
ਜੋ ਇਹ ਕਥਾ ਸੁਨੈ ਅਰੁ ਗਾਵੈ॥
ਦੂਖ ਪਾਪ ਤਿਹ ਨਿਕਟ ਨਾ ਆਵੈ॥
ਬਿਸਨ ਭਗਤ ਕੀ ਏ ਫਲ ਹੋਈ॥
ਆਧਿ ਬਯਾਧਿ ਛ੍ਵੈ ਸਕੈ ਨ ਕੋਈ॥1॥
 
(in Roman transliteration):
Dohraa
Raam kathaa jug jug atal, sabh koee bahkhat nayt.
Surg baas raghubar karaa, sagri puree samay. 1
Chaupai
Jo ih kathaa sunai aur gaavai.
Dookh paap tih nikat naa aavai.
Bisan bhagat kee ih phal ho-ee.
Aaadhi byadhi chhvai sakai naa ko-ee. 1
 
(English translation): Dohra
The story of Ram will remain known through Ages and all shall ever narrate it.
Raghubar (Ram) went to heavens and took his entire city with him.
(So, Damdami Taksal worships Ram):
 
 
Dohra Those who will listen to or sing this (Ram’s) story;
sufferings and sins will not come near him.
This will be the fruit (profit) of the meditation upon the name of Vishnu.
No disease or illness will be able to touch him. 1
(So, Damdami Taksal worships Vishnu also):
 

Harjot Veer and N30 Paji, in respect of a new (Amritdhari) Maryada acceptable to both sides of the spectrum I believe that we should not define ourselves as Sikhs according to the Maryada we follow. Our loyalty to the Sikh Panth and it's primary societal objective of Sarbat da Bhala should be more important than enforcing the respective Maryada's that we believe upon other Sikhs.
By so doing we can brush aside all the usual disagreements about Meat consumption, Bhang use, Alcohol consumption, Bachittar Natak, Charitropakiyan, Raagmala, Larrivar, Dera's and focus on the things that can unite us which are destroying the Sikh Panth in the form of a silent Genocide such as female infanticide, biraderi apartheid, drugs, illiteracy and poverty.
The simple definition for a Sikh should be what it always was in puratan times - namely anybody who bows down before Guru Sahib. That way we stop referring to the tens of millions of sincere Gurdwara Sangat as non-Sikhs and accept them as fellow sehajdhari brothers and sisters within a stronger, larger and more inclusive Sikh Panth better able to help the weak.
Once we get initial Unity on a simple basic point like that with all samparda's and jathebandi's uniting to jointly tackle the social problems afflicting the Sikh Panth by working shoulder to shoulder with pyaar, then after the 2021 Punjab census (where we are currently heading to be a minority by 2021) can a revised attempt be made for an updated Amritdhari Maryada.
It's vital that we recognise that there are good Sikhs from across the whole spectrum who might have a different Maryada and slightly different beliefs to us. But what should matter to us is their actions on behalf of the Panth. We need to recognise that all the main samparda's and jathebandi's are infiltrated by anti-Sikh elements in kesdhari roop keen to sow the seeds of dischord. As respectful discussion is good for the Panth but animosity and hatred will destroy us. As the reality boils down to the fact that when the Pakistani Genocide of 1947 occurred and when Congress Genocide of 1984 were perpetrated none of the killers of innocent Sikhs cared about which jathebandi, biraderi or samparda a Sikh had affiliation for.
All that mattered is that the innocents were Sikh and hence had to be killed. 
As our enemies fear everything that Sikhi stands for. United we stand and divided we fall.
 

Harjot Paji relax. There is no hate. This is a civilised discussion of two different ideological positions.
You believe in the DDT Maryada. Fine. I respect your right to believe that way.
However, what you need to appreciate is why the majority of the Sikh Panth do not and will never accept the DDT Maryada.
Damdami Taksal are well known and historically documented for having refused Amrit to Mazhabi Sikhs prior to the 1930's.
And there of further reports of them having carried out such blatant anti-Sikh discrimination even after that.
Then comes DDT's unforgivable support of Indira Gandhi + Congress in the 1980 elections. A decision hated by most of the Panth.
If it was not for Sant Jarnail Singh Ji, the name Damdami Taksal (first mentioned in the 1970's) would have faded away from Panthic consciousness as the Sanatan sect that refused Amrit to Mazhabi Sikhs and supported Indira Gandhi in the 1980 elections, which in turn led to the next 35 years of suffering for the Panth.
So I respectfully ask you to see why other Sikhs that are the majority of the Panth are not open to accepting the DDT Maryada.
There is not a shred of hatred and I don't believe Dhumma followers need to abandon their Maryada or respect for Sri Chand.
Let all Sikhs believe what they want and let us respect that those that follow a slightly different Maryada can still be considered Sikhs but obviously where some disagree with DDT ideology vis a vis impurity we will all agree to disagree.
 

I disagee with you Paapi.
I strongly believe Satkirin Kaur's advocacy of gender equality is fully in tandem with Gurmat and Sikhi.
I don't think for one minute that you as a non-Sikh are defending Sikhism.
I think you are very cleverly and very subtly ridiculing Sikhi.
 

These are few local  events. on a mass scale none of them were able to save lives O/W why Sikh Kaum was so badly hit

Chalo reinforces my point SinghSabha Ji. Hahahahahahahahahaha

Paapiman, could you please tell us in your own words, what values and morals you learned from it?  

I think right now is a REALLY good time for each one of us to reflect on why we study Sikh history like we do?
I hope it's more than personal aggrandizement and egocentrism. I hope it's bigger than wanting to get some name from having a paper or book published...
I'd like to think that people on this path are pursuing knowledge in an idealistic way, and are broadminded enough to share knowledge. 
 
Seeing as what we are studying isn't something that is going to make us rich (in a monetary sense that is!), we should get over ourselves...

What can I say?
It's like being a brilliant teacher; who is also an undercover paedo.... 
 
The flaw is of such gravity that it undermines the good. 
 
J S Grewal is deeply insidious propagandist whose work (overall) has a very negative effect in terms of promoting unity and cohesion in the panth - when we REALLY need this right now. And he likes to slyly spread his shit; I see Fenech subtly peddling his shit. Mcleod did it. So we are talking about a machod that slyly manipulates people into pushing his casteist agenda via the power of his academic position over them. It's a shame because he wrote a generally brilliant biography of dasmesh pita with S S Bal.
But it's cool. He'll be dead soon.  We have to keep an eye on his chumchay though. 
 
Yeah I've read Trilochan Singh. I thought Jagjit Singh's rebuttals were more interesting though and a lot more positive for the wider, inclusive Sikhi aligned perspective. 

That's typically Mcleodian! lol
 
Plus he'd always work in some shifthaan of jats in his work and get hordes of them loving him (cos we all know how jats are suckers for that type of shit!). His jat theories was just rehashes of what his big brother maha-machod J S Grewal was feeding his little, skinny, white arse. 

Really got irritated when Mcleod talked about several manuscripts of Chaupa Rehat and then concludes that the one with the hom ceremony is more authentic and the others without hom ceremony aren't because they appear to have 'omitted' the passage. He never even goes near the possibility that 1 ms might've been corrupted while 3-4 others do not even mention that incident, but he kept insisting the hom one was more authentic just because it was controversial.

He was a younger bum-chum of J S Grewal who is one of the worst machods to keep bringing in his jaat paat into all of his 'historical' works, essentially turning it into propaganda. Hew followed his bum-chum's and the general western orientalism agenda when writing. 

I think they should, we have too many cases of curropt gurdwaras commitee members and their hired goons... not just criminal record check but interview by panj pyares as well.

I don't think anything needs to be limited as that would send wrong message about freedom to discuss certain topics (like certain other forums) and also if members wish not to discuss these things they have the choice to just avoid those topics... Nobody is forcing them. 

As long debates are in civilized manner let them have

Naah let them be. Its good to have a healthy open debate about these things.

What is sad is that I, being an anti Dasam Granthi, have to post proofs to show that Shyam was not a pen name but a court poet but pro DGs can get away with saying anything. Double standards.
Same with the source. Agreed its just one source but do you guys even have one which clearly says Guru Ji wrote Charitropakhyan?

Dally, even though you are pro DG, answer my one question:
Do you honestly believe that there is historical evidence between 1700-1800 to show Guru Ji wrote Charitars or used Shyam as pen name (and Shyam was not a court poet)? Internal evidence says Kab Shyam is the author, so it is important to know who that is. Anyone can easily claim 'oh thats a pen name of Guru Ji' without giving any references
What will happen if I can show more than one source that says Shyam was a court poet? These adamant pro DGs will still not budge one bit because they don't want to question themselves ever.

Thanks for confirming DG as Guru Krit is just a theory. I thought it was unquestionable for you Dasam Granthis but its just a theory.

The link contains almost all stanzas of the sakhi and it includes the portions I am talking about, so there is no doubt about the source. If he wants the source then answer my questions, as simple as that. Or go buy the book.
The link already mentions court poets wrote Charitars. So no question arises on my source.