sukrit kaur

Bhai Randhir Singh ji thought so..So you are classifying him under group of " CulTs".. I'm completely disagree with you at this point..
Completely!!

namdharis follow the guru granth sahib as there holy granth and you can't call them cult. they follow the true meaning of bani they give full respect to women they do wake up at amrit vela and do 1 hour naam simran daily and do 5 banis with chandi ji di vaar in there nitnem the follow the tru gurmat sangeet maryada. at the there head quater bhaini there is a place where naam jap proyog is done 24*7.

Here I'm again thinking about hatred..
You know some questions we can't answer.

I take that to mean man made Gurus who would mislead in order to control the masses. I totally lump those in there who try to push back women into subservient and subordinant role. False Gurus lead us away from finding the Divine within ourselves. They mislead us into thinking we cant find the truth within ourselves...

The True Guru is within us.

Consider this when you read the next few lines of that same shabad you quoted Paapiman...in fact the VERY NEXT few lines right after the line you quoted:


ਕੇਤੀ ਨਾਰਿ ਵਰੁ ਏਕੁ ਸਮਾਲਿ ॥

Keṯī nār var ek samāl.

There are so many brides of the One Husband Lord - consider this.


ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਮਰਣੁ ਜੀਵਣੁ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਨਾਲਿ ॥

Gurmukẖ maraṇ jīvaṇ parabẖ nāl.

The Gurmukh dies, and lives with God.


ਦਹ ਦਿਸ ਢੂਢਿ ਘਰੈ ਮਹਿ ਪਾਇਆ ॥

Ḏah ḏis dẖūdẖ gẖarai mėh pā▫i▫ā.

Searching in the ten directions, I found Him within my own home.

Whatever you think,whatever I think ,Do not matter.The truth doesnt change.Spiritually/bhagti is not related with sampardas,sects,cults it is the journey of an individual.when,anyone reaches any realm or reach sachkhand ,no one says a DDT/AkJ/Radhaswami has made it!! Bhagat kabir jee says he has no religion.Guru sahib will def hug that beloved soul whether its DDT,akj,nirmale,Radhaswami.Guru Nanak patsah gave one message,were one true guru of entire humanity,of sikhs,hindus,muslims.They taught us to Love one Niraankaaar and to start thinking at level of individuals.But still if a sikh is not abiding his teachings,or getting true mesaage of gurbani then,who is responsible for his failure.I have nothing to do whether a person whose guru of sect he belongs to ,used to smoke or not,all matters is what that individual/person is doing now.Same in case of sikhs.So manyyyyyy sikhs still are non veg,drunkards..So what about them??
It's all story of an individual.What about Nihangs who eat meat???what about a person who is a non sikh but still follows rules of sikhism.No one knows,when he will get a chance to meet sache patsah or will be a greatttt sikh/saint in his next birth.And same sikh who has no true love comes again and again in so many births.
I dont know any thing about cults,sects or sampardas.All are MAN MADE..
In entire GURBANi,the story is of an individual irrespective of any caste,religion,sect.One who abides by it is the trur winner and a true Sikh.
Who knows If I ,you were a muslim or Radhaswami in previous life.But due to any kamai,we are now in sikhism.But still If we waste our time blaming this and that ,then it will a great SIN.All depends upon our love.Our Love towards Nirannkaar/sache patsah/Guru nanak patsah/sggsj.I'm not a Hater.Hatred is not a principle of sikhism..
hey sache patsahh!!!!

Quite a few people recently have been asking both on the forum and privately if what they are hearing is naam/sehaj dhun/toor etc. I cannot really confirm to anyone if what they are hearing is the true one or not but you might find the following explanation useful. I can definitely relate to what is being said in this youtube video because when it happened to me I reacted in exactly the same way.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-yw5J9LZ_yg&t=115m40s

The relevant bit is at time index 01:55:40 which i have tried to incorporate into the url above.

And none of this has anything to do with attaining brahamgyan.... every human still has the divine light in them and can find the truth!

And you seem to use the words cult a lot... do you actually know the meaning of the word cult?? Because I dont think you do... You seem to think any group except DDT / Nihang are cults.

I knew someone who had to be 'deprogrammed' from a cult and let me tell you none of the Sikh sects qualify.

Some indicators of a cult:
Brainwashing to thinking their way is the only / right way
Told they are the only chosen ones who will attain 'salvation' or God while everyone else will perish
Strict 'Rules' to abide by
Blindly follow a human leader
Women are often severly restricted

So far, sounds like DDT and Nihangs could even fit in this description doesn't it?? And this is from a theology site!

But its much worse... continuing on:

Alienating and isolation from family and friends,
Threats that if someone leaves they will go to hell, or even worse be physically harmed,
Coerce payment or money from that person, or sometimes giving up all their worldly possessions
Often communal living with only bare essentials

None of the Sikh sects or groups fall into this description. So please stop calling groups like AKJ cults when they are not. They have slightly different views than your DDT do. Nothing they do however goes against Sikh Rehet Maryada. And at least they follow Akal Takht which the seat of Sikh authority while DDT a minority group, openly reject the seat of Sikh authority.

Back to the original Post:

Nirankaris, Radhaswamis and Namdharis: They are not considered Sikhs you are correct. But that doesn't mean they can not attain spiritual realized state as Brahamgyani. Someone who smokes, but devotes their entire life to doing good, and loving God and finds God within themselves... has more chance than a hypocritical Sikh who might like to put everyone else down but doesn't actually do good, doesn't actually live as espousing the qualities of God. (not referring to any people specifically just generalizing).

ANYONE has potential to become Brahamgyani as the Universal Truth and God are only as far away as within ourselves. Waheguru did not make it so only DDT and Nihang Sikhs could achieve this state. I highly believe that even Dali Llama has achieved it.

No one is greater than SSGGSJ. Saints can merge into him.

The 10 incarnations of God appeared to be human, but they were not human like us.

I dont know much,but Take an example.: Two persons,First one belongs to sikhism and second second is not a sikh.
Ist one has all wisdom,has taken amrit but still has not progressed spiritually.He reads Gurbani,but does not walk on the way mentioned there.He is doing all pathh etc,but still has not known core idea of spirituality.The message given in each line,each word,each tukk of gurbani is not familiar to him.then,it simply means he is not talking to SGGSJ and no indication he is getting from.So Tell em whether he has attained the true purpose of life??
To take amrit,or to born in sikhism is just a begginning.He has brought the fruit home,but has not eaten yet.So is he a true sikh??
I don't think so..
On same time,other person who belongs to any other samparda Radhaswami,nirmale or nirankarri.Though he belongs to a particular sect,but still as an individual,he has a great respect for SGGSJ coz he knows the true message of Guru sahib.If he has attained this purpose or he is able to understand each word of gurbani,if he knows what is the true message given by a each and every pangat of SGGSJ a,then he knows how to talk to SGGSJ.Guru sahib Ji is talking to such person.All he is doing is that he has a teacher from whom he is taking suggestions.Only difference is that he has joined other train.He is travelling in other vehicle.So every vehicle has its own rules , and regulations in order to complete the journey and to reach the destination.If he is a very much beloved soul then who knows when Guru sahib comes , holds his hand and carries him with himself.So ,we can never say anything which is ToTally true unless experienced.If a Radhaswami gets chance to meet GURU Nanak patsah with his efforts or true love and a sikh can't due to his false ego,then who is the true winner???
I've personally met many ppl in my life ,who are sikhs,but still very busy in such useless wordly discussions or just solving disputes.On other if a non sikh is busy in true kamai irrespective of any worldly stature,then who is following true path.
A biggest sinner can be the noblest person.
If Guru sahib wants then any person of any samparda can attain the highest state.Then who knows,when he will be great sikh of time.
I'm not a scholar nor I'm so free to go on discussions.
I hope Waheguru Ji makes our doubts clear..
I'm too struggling to understand the mystical facts.
If we are born in sikhism,then it means we are provided with a big fruit.All we need to do is to eat this fruit rather than to give a look on other's fruits or arguing their efforts.
Gur fateh!!

You know the answer,so why you put the earlier question?? You know veer ji,one who has done divine darshan of his teacher/guru in form of a jot,he can only give the answer whether a human guru is greater than SGGSJ or just a embodiment of divine shakti.Guru Nanak DeV Ji maharaj or any of ten Guru's came here in human bodies..So they were too Human Guru's at that time.
As it's said Guru Nanak Patsah will take human birth for 84 times,and anyhow if one is ignorant about any physical being,who is Guru Nanak patsah himself,then what can he (poor one) answer???
Does That true pursh lower than jot of Divine shakti/SGGSJ???
You know It's something mystical...One who gets true grace of sache patsah will understand this fact.He will start seeing Moorat of his true pursh,(Only If TRUE One,complete guru,Sachkhand Wasi) in SGGSJ or will start talking to SGGsJ in true manner.
It's very easy to say anything,but when one gets darshan of divine,he knows the mystery..
Baba Nand Singh Ji Maharaj Were told by Guru Patsah himself to have his Human Guru/teacher.
Now only Baba Nand singh Ji maharaj can answer Whether his teacher/guru is lower than SGGSJ or is a ray of divine jot of nirankar himself.
That's why gurbani says
Brahmgyani ki Gat Brahmgyani Jaanaey..

Or if you want a perfect answer especially from me ,then pray to Guru patsah For me.He will himself help me to find a true pursh/teacher then after having divine glimpse inside(((ohhh sache patsahhhh,May this come truee,,wahhhhh))),I will give you the appropriate answer.
If not so,then pray for yourself and have the answer from divine.
Yes adding more,I would like to share some things from suleman tape.When he was asked that what does Baba isher Singh Ji (Rara sahib waale) mean to you??
He answered he himself is ray/jot of guru Nanak patsah ,he himself is the divine shakti.Cause baba ji's divine jot was visible to him.Now only he knows the mystery.We can still doubt he is just a human body.He can't be greater than Guru Nanak patsah or SGGSJ maharaj .Even,baba ji will never accept these words.He would probably be very angry for giving him stature equal to Guru Nanak patsah .But Who can teach Suleman??
He well knows the mystery.
He only knows what baba Ji means to him.
So is he doing any mistake by saying baba ji as jot of Nanak patsah ???
You know we can go on and on saying several things,but the truth is unspoken.
Just do an ardaas if you have sooooooo much love for SGGSJ maharaj.and take a hukamnaama.trust me ,Guru sahib will def give you the answer.
I hope I didnt say anything wrong.
Waheguru hi budh bakshe saanu jeeva nu!!
Gurfateh!!

Do not try to do anything, just pay attention to your Simran. It is a total mind cleanser.

You see, we may ask why is it so difficult to do dhyan of Wahiguru, though we also know, He is formless ....

We must bear in mind, we are filled with the filth of countless karmas, sanskaras, vasnas, mind, bodies etc .....so many layers of dirt accumulated on us .....

Just for example, you have a thousand watts bulb, and you wrap it with black cloth with several rounds on it.

What will happen? The light will get shun.

In the same way, Wahiguru Akal Purukh is within us, with such a Jot refulgence, that even millions o¡f Suns and moons together, will fall down in shame...

So, you see, everything is within us, even the creator Wahiguru; but, the problem is with us, our spiritual sight has to be opened. And the only medicine which can do so, is His aukhad Naam.

So, no matter, if we close our eyes, and we see darkness only, even then, we should persist, persist and persist...then a day will come, when He will make Himself pargat within us.

Even if we die and it may seem we have achieved nothing, there is no need to worry, His bhakti does not go in waste, in our next bith, with His Grace, we shall get better envoirments, in order to do His bhakti, even more efficiently, so that in the end our soul drop, merges in Satnam Samundar.

Sat Sree Akal.

Exactly, a Brahamgyani has become one with Creator. It doesn't matter from which path they arrived at this end state, what matters is only that they DID arrive at this state! And again, Sukhmani Sahib tells us we can never know. It's not up to us to say whether someone can or can not attain this state. It's for every individual themselves. We can't go attaching rules and this and that and making statement that if someone doesn't follow DDT/Nihang etc they can't relize the Universal truth... who are we to tell anyone that they are allowed or not allowed to reach spiritual realization? Our Holy Granths are there to help people realize this state (all of us), but if someone arrives there by different means, who are we to denounce them??!

Paapiman, I know you are beating around the bush hinting *rather strongly* that only so called 'orthodox' sects can produce a Brahamgyani. But its not up to you, it's not up to leaders of any sects... it's up to every individual within themselves and it's between they and God alone. We as human can not put restrictions on anyone saying they can't ever attain this state unless they belong to a certain sect etc.

Truth is Universal and anyone can find it. Read description in Sukhmani Sahib... that should be all you need to know...

If you say Guru Nanak patsah greater than SGGSJ or SGGSJ greater than Guru Nanak patsah or u say Guru Ramdass patsah greater than Guru Gobind singh JI maharaj and vice versa.Does that make sense???? When one jot(of any jeev atma) merges with true/greatest jot of akal purkh,then there remains no difference between two.
As garbage on dissolving in ocean ,remains with no existence ,same happens in case of brahmgyan.But still we can ONLY talk ,can't put the TRUTH in words.
So,it's quite better to ask waheguru Ji for any doubts rather than to blame this and that.
WJKKWJKF!!

If you say Guru Nanak patsah greater than SGGSJ or SGGSJ greater than Guru Nanak patsah or u say Guru Ramdass patsah greater than Guru Gobind singh JI maharaj and vice versa.Does that make sense???? When one jot(of any jeev atma) merges with true/greatest jot of akal purkh,then there remains no difference between two.
As garbage on dissolving in ocean ,remains with no existence ,same happens in case of brahmgyan.But still we can ONLY talk ,can't put the TRUTH in words.
So,it's quite better to ask waheguru Ji for any doubts rather than to blame this and that.
WJKKWJKF!!

If a non Sikh can achieve this state, then it stands to reason this state is still not 'dependent upon' belief in certain granths...even for a Sikh.

Reaching the state of Brahamgyani (according to Sukhmani Sahib) is dependent upon considering ALL equally (yes even gender), reamining unattached (yes this means no viewing other humans as God like a physical husband - but instead seeing light of God in all), humble, always in rembrance of God, doing good for others, realizing the truth to reality and the soul, knowing God, doing things for common good etc. Nowhere does it say that belief in any specific granth is required for one to reach this state!

In fact, one could still reach this state without ever believing in SGGSJ (as non Sikhs can still find the truth... there is no monopoly on the truth, there is no monopoly on realizing God!)

To say that belief in specific granths etc. is a requirement of a Brahamgyani, then we are pulling themeaning of Brahamgyani down to someone who is veresed in certain sects, belief systems, etc. and that is wrong. And we can see it because one sect will not acknowledge people from other sects as Brahamgyani simply because they don't 'believe' in the same rules or granths etc. THAT's not the definition of Brahamgyani... It's not about how many rules one can follow... or which books someone supports. It's about realizing the truth to reality and acting with full qualities of God.

yup!
Baba ji had varr of getting partakh darshan of Guru Nanak while singing keertan. how many people get to do that right?
he was a bihangam/celibate. did selfless sewa of keertan for 52 years without a break, day and night.
dhan guru ke pyare!

It's only available to Brahmgyanis.

Is there some kind of 'brahmgyani-meter' you use to determine that? If so please let me know where I could get one.

How do you guys define whether or not someone is a Brahamgyani? How would one know? Could there be many Brahamgyanis among us that don't have the label of Brahamgyani by any specific jatha or sect? Maybe everyday people like ourselves, who don't wish to make themselves look above anyone else... or is there a requisite that a certain sect has to label someone as a Brahamgyani? If the definition is someone who is "spiritually realized" and awakened to the truth, then we may have many more Brahamgyanis than we know of! Yet many may be dismissed because they are not recognized as such by a specific jatha?

Just curious because I have read on here comments that say that none of us could ever hope to reach the level of Brahamgyani... however isn't the whole purpose of our life to reach that state? And aren't we told that this life is precious in that it's our chance to do so?

Or is the term being used more for people who were educated in a certain jathas beliefs and become a sort of leader in that jatha? (Same question for the term "Sant").

What makes one a Brahamgyani, and how would they be recognized if they were just a normal person, not affiliated with any specific sect or jatha? Or would they most likely be dismissed entirely?

Are you saying they didn't? Or that they never should have?

What is your personal view on this? Were the Gurus sexist or did they advocate for women equality? We still have not definitively figured this out yet.

Sikhi boasts as being the only religion to have full gender equality. Is that a lie? If so, then why is it all over the internet and in virtually ever pamphlet about Sikhi? If its a religion by men for men, and women aren't really welcome (or only welcome with restrictions) then why not come straight out and say so? At least Islam doesnt hide the fact that men are considered 'a degree above women' (from Quran).

I am only trying to find out... since this is discussion of history vs gurbani... gurbani over and over states all humans are equal, same divine jot in all of us equally, male and female. But actual practice seems to not agree with Gurbani. So I am just trying to understand why there is a discrepency. Whether it is culture, or whether the Gurus really thought / taught that women were inferior to men.

I said that is what I had read... in virtually every book on Sikhi it makes the statement that prior to Sikhi women's situation in India was terible. Women were considered property of men, and had no rights. Then Sikhi came along, and Guru Nanak taught that women and men deserved equal rights and treatment. At least this is what nearly ALL Sikh books boast. And then they say that in the years following 1699, cultural influence saw women's position fall back into one of submissiveness, servile. This was blamed partially on rhetnammas written by those with Brahamin background (Chaupa Singh) and suggested that their personal views were written into their rhetnammas. I am only referring to what I read. I don't know what the truth is... Right now I have no idea if God / the Gurus see me as inferior or not! I am trying to figure that out. And if being born into female body is 'inferior' then is this life a punishment for something I did ina prior life? I thought that Gurbani says that human life at all, is very very rare and is our chance to meet God. If so, then how could I have messed up so badly as to be born a woman (if in fact women are seen as inferior). And if we are inferior, I want to definitely prevent from being born as a woman again!

Women once seen as leaders in Sikhi and equals by the Gurus had been transformed back into simple 'housewives/servants'. I don't need to quote a specific book because nearly ALL books on Sikhi make this statement. So I am just trying to understand... are you saying they are all wrong? Were women housewife/servant all along? Then what about the stories of 52 women sent out to lead and teach by Guru Amardas Ji (52 of the 146 were women)? Or was that a lie too?

If these are all lies, then someone should work to fix it because lots of women who were not born into Sikh families are being duped into believing Sikhi sees them as equals and that they have equal rights in Sikhi to the men. This is drawing a lot of people into Sikhi. If this is wrong, then someone should change these things starting with Wikipedia etc. At least be honest about it like the Muslims are. If women are seen in Sikhi as inferior to men, and are expected to bow to and worship men as God, are restricted from doing seva that men are not, and are discouraged from taking amrit (and were never meant to from 1699) then these things should be right out there for everyone to read, so that nobody will get the wrong impression of Sikhism. Because right now nearly every resource on Sikhi says the opposite and declares Sikhi as the ONLY gender egalitarian religion in the world.

You seem to only want to argue for the sake of arguing. You come off as not being very personable... or maybe it's only towards me, because I am a female (and don't know my place) lol. ??

This is the first time,I listened to baba ji.It's really a pack of vairaag ,wrapped in music.Very TRANQUIL!! The video where created a melody ,is totally divine.Like celestial sounds are ringing in my ears.No words!!
Dhan GURU Dhan GURU PYARE!!!