Mithr

But we also need to differenciate between our soul and astral body. When we die the Jamdoots forcefully take out our souls, but when OBE happens only the astral body seperates from the body but even that is somehow attached to the body through a silver cord. I've heard that when the soul is dragged out, it literally shakes your very bones. OBE on the other hand is supposed to be a good experience. Has anyone here ever had an OBE?

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=42...h&plindex=3 Just when I think that Bahadur Ali Shah getting on my nerves, I come across this video of a shameless former "Sikh" girl who converts to Islam only to be used as propaganda against Sikhs. Now she proudly wears a Burqaa.

Here's another of Bahadur Ali Shah's lies and hatred for Sikhs and Sikhi: http://www.shiachat.com/forum/index.php?sh...t=#entry1551187 Dear brother Cyan Garamond, the book you just mentioned in your link is indeed a translation of one such Shi'a Futuwwah Nameh. I highly recommend it as it is th emost famous one. Henery Corbin has also translated a dozen of them into French under the title "Traitï؟½ des Compagnons Chevaliers: Rasa'il e Javanmardan". Unfortunately this book is out of print but you can get the Farsi translation under the title: "Ayin e Javanlmardi" translated by Ahsa, Naraqi, ISBN 964-372-065-9 These futuwwah nameh are fascinating in the sense that they are treaties that are very similar to the Japanese Samurai codes such as the Hagakure. Regarding the life of Baba Nanak Shah the issue isn't so much the fact that are clearly distinguishable from mythology but rather their interpretation. For example it is a fact that Baba Nanak Shaha went to Mekkah and Sikh keep repeating this all over again. What the majority of them don't realise is that: a. Only Muslims can enter Mekkah b. That during the medieval times people from India only visited Mekkah for Hajj. Baba Nanak Shah took the land route which means months of travel not counting all the dangers that this implies. Yet modern Sikhs since the early 19th century try to fool the world by saying that Baba Nanak Shah only visited Mekkah as a sort of courteous visit to give his universal message of unity.This is of course utter non-sense as well all know that non-Muslims can't enter Mekkah:end of story! The Sikh tradition started as a community of people both Muslims and monotheist Hindus gathered around a saint, Baba Nanak Shah. He taught spirituality in the same way as Rumi taught Christians and Muslims alike. The problem is that a caste called the Jatts who now form 80 % of Sikhs joined that tradition and enforced their political aspirations by kicking out Muslims out of that traditions by enforcing anti-Islamic practises such as forbidding namaz, circumcision, halal meat etc . If you forbid these it means that as a group you have a clear agenda: kicking Mulsims out! The Hinduisation of Sikhism goes back to them even though they hate Brahmins too. They used the chivalry rituals imported from Safavi Persia to legitimize their guerilla warfare against the Mughals and the looting of Muslim land and property. They have been more than willing allies of the British in crushing teh 1857 Mutiny that could have brought about the renewal of a modern Mughal empire. I have lived a good 8 years in that community and you won't believe how much Sikhs hate Muslims. Many in the UK follow a cult created by a martial arts teacher called Niddar Singh. They wear blue turbans and often wear a boar's tusk in it. They officially say it's a sign of courage i.e. slaying a boar but in reality it is used for a much more sinister purpose. Sikhs are forbidden to marry Muslim women. This rule made it impossible for Muslim foillowers of Baba Nanak Shah to be considered as fellow disciples of Baba Nanak Shah. In warfare Sikhs would use that boar tusk to rape Muslim women. In their sick belief the boar tusk would defile the Muslim victim and make her not Muslim anymore so that they could rape her.There are many accounts of them forcing Muslim followers of Baba Nanak Shah to eat pork. In my own case these followers of Niddar Singh would put pork in my food and make fun of me. When I joined the Sikh tradition I did so because of the beautiful writings of Baba Nanak Shah but didn't realise how horrible that community was. Sikhism is a house of heresy that should be at best burnt to the ground. In some sense I feel like saying that Baba Nanak Shah's beautiful writings should be saved from this race of demons that are modern Sikhs. Go on any Sikh forum and see how they insult Ahl ul Bayt . For years I tried to prove them wrong by showing them that Baba Nanak Shah never said such things but all you get in return is death threats. They are now trying to get a Sikh regiment in the British army. British recruiting officers regularly show up at Niddar Singh's public speeches and shows and advertise for Sikhs to join the army. I let you brothers and sisters imagine what a regiment of people trained from birth to hate Islam and Muslims and taught that raping Muslim women is ok would do if sent to the Middle East. May Allah (swt) curse them and may He forgive for having waited so long to join the path of Ahl ul bayt . -- -------------------------------------------------------- I just got one thing to say to Bahadur Ali. EFF YOU!! This shameless "man" feels absolutely no shame lying like this. It makes me sick to think that we belong to the same species as that Hijdaa.

Ragmaala Bhai, I can totally understand your feelings here. People like these feel absolutely no shame in using lies to defame a group. Degenerates like him give humanity a bad name.

I was just taking a look at the Shia website shiachat.com and noticed anti Sikh propaganda being spread by Bahadur Ali Shah like here: http://www.shiachat.com/forum/index.php?sh...t=#entry1658971 He writes: Sikhs say that the Holy Prophet deviated from the right path in their second holy book, the Dasam Granth in the Bachitar Natak. According to Sikhs all prophets mislead humanity due to their ego except their own 10 masters. Astaghfirollah may Allah (swt) preserve us from such heresy for it surely implies that Allah (swt) failed to guide humanity until the emergence of that ignorant peasant cult from Panjab. They are on the whole fiercely opposed to Islam though some might appear "tolerant".Their codes of conduct called rahit namahs forbid trusting in a Muslim, interacting with Muslims. In fact Muslim initiates into the Khalsa order would be fed pork. They forbid eating with Muslims, eating halal meat and most of their prohibition deal with prohibiting Muslim social habits. They have a long history of looting, killing and raping innocent Muslims, especially Sayyids. They always talk about resisting the Mughals but they brag in their own history books how they massacred the Sayyid village of Samana in Panjab. They have a text called the Karni Namah where they talk about invading dar ul islam one day and conquer Mekkah and Medina and destroy Islam. In case you wondered how I know this: I spent 8 years studying Sikhs in an academic way at university and have been a Singh myself, though not fully initiated, they never trusted my love for Ahl ul Bayt I guess. Sorry to break your illusion Brave Muslim Warrior but Sikhs are far from being friendly inclined towards Islam. kind regards Bahadur Ali Shah This is what annoys me the most. Idiots who convert out of a religion only to end up bashing it later on. Yet this hypocrite calls anyone who questions Islam as "Islamophobe". What an arrogant hypocrite. ------------------------------------------------------ On this thread he again starts with the usual Bakwas about how Guru Nanak Dev Jee was a Muslim and how Sikhs are heretics. http://www.shiachat.com/forum/index.php?sh...t=#entry1549470 The issue of Hazrat Baba Nanak Shah being a Muslim is an issue that predates the heretical writings of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad from Qadian. Usman does seem to forget that Hazrat Baba Nanak Shah 's companion, Bhai Mardana had descendants who still exist today.These have remained Muslims and used to play sacred music in Sikh shrines. These Rababis or descendants of Bhai Mardana are ALL Shi'a. The fact that Hazrat Baba Nanak Shah was a Muslim is also mentioned in Ismaili and Ni'matullahi writings who clearly talk about him as being a dervish and one of their onw. At that time the Agha Khans took bayat from the qutb of the Ni'matullahi order and followed 12er Shi'ism at meast in theory. The title "Shah" is worn by dervishes of Shi'a Sufi orders such as the Ni'matullahi. Hazrat Baba Nanak mentions a hadith of Imam Ja'far about the fact that Imam 'Ali and the Prophet are one light. The institution of langar and the very structure of the recitation of Sikh hymns follows Ismaili and Alevi patterns. The initiation ritual of the Sikhs is DIRECTLY dervied from Shi'a chivalry manuals such as the Futuwwah Nameh ye Sultani of Kashifi. Hazrat Baba Nanak Shah never created a new religion but rather an interfaith organisation where Muslims and monotheist Hindus shared a common love for God. The fact that it wasn't a new religion is shown by the fact that the Sikh masters also got mosques built besides Sikh shrines. Muslims and Hindus who followed Hazrat Baba Nanak Shah were encouraged to be good practitioners of the their own tradition, in the same way as Rumi taught both Muslims and Christians. Of course Islam is the ideal religion and eventually the aim was to bring people to Islam. The teachings of Hazrat Baba Nanak Shah were never intended to become a new religion which makes modern Sikhism an outright heresy like Ahmadism. Usman, your cult is good at coming up with moronic scholarship without any real academic proof. Just for your info: I used to be a Sikh 'alim! what the eff! I didn't even know we had any "alims", then how did bahadur become an "Sikh Alim"? and in this same thread he just goes on and on about spreading his lies to mislead the other people there about Sikhi. ----------------------------------------------------- Bahadur Ali Shah's hateful propaganda is also influancing many other people to have a very negative image of Sikhs like here: http://www.shiachat.com/forum/index.php?sh...t=#entry1680109 Sikhs are very racist towards Pakistani's and especially muslims there is even a revert from Sikhism here on Shiachat who converted to Shia Islam and he will tell you the scale of hate they have enbedded in their culture for us. What makes me laugh is that there is 10x more muslims yet no one ever calls for one unified Islamic state, maybe because the kufaar have changed the way we think to suite their needs. hmm, I wonder who this "revert" is? A little further down on this same thread this person who is obviously inflaunced by Bahadur Ali Shah's anti Sikh propaganda says: well skhs in India used to carry a white tusk in their turban and before raping muslim women they would use this to 'purify' the dirty muslim women for themsleves to use and they also have many other sayings e.t.c from their Gurus cursing and talking ill of muslims in fact they viewed even our food as dirty and unedible. Anyway here in the UK they hand out leaflets saying that muslims are raping and using sikh girls e.t.c to feul racial tension and they regularly hand out these 'hatred' leaflets anywhere that they are a majority. Also especially after 9/11 they were even more racist towards Pakistani's than the English people so that says alot. Obviousally some SIKHS are ok but thats because they are probably not religious or not brainwahsed by the mainstream. again what the eff? why the hell is Bahadur spreading this lie about Sikh men "purify" Muslim women with white tusks before raping Muslim women? This is the dumbest of many lies spead by Bahadur Ali Shah.

Bhai Shaheediyan, You've got is all wrong. Caste is a non issue for me. But what is an issue for me is when a group tries to distort our history to furthur their own agenda whether they are Brahmins, Muslims, Christians or Dalits. Their agenda does not have to mean it is our agenda. No one is disputing that we should help them as we should help all needy people, but helping does not mean we should promote lies and false propoganda even if it is against our enemy, because I dont beleive in the philosophy of an enemy of an enemy is our friend. This is the mistake we made in 1947. As critical as I am of the Singh Sabha movement, but caste based discrimination did not start with the Singh Sabha movement. Before the Singh Sabha movement there are cases of so called low caste not even allowed to eat langar or Parshaad in the sangat. There are even shameless cases of low caste not allowed to take amrit in the same group as so called high castes. Singh Sabha with all it's faults tried to change that although not entirely successful which is largely the reason why so many so called low castes in Punjab converted to Sikhi during that era further increasing our numbers as the census data of that period shows. As for what the fighting force of puraatan armies consisted of, again I beleive you are falling for Dalit propaganda. I'm not going to go into details about that because it will just end up looking like a caste based argument which is not what I beleive in. Veer, you are mistaken into thinking that I am "stereotyping" against ALL dalits. That is not the case. Just because I question the integrity of Dalit centric propaganda does not mean I am somehow against Dalits, just as I'm not against ALL Brahmins, Muslims or Christians if I question their propaganda. Everything should be taken in with a pinch of salt and not beleived blindly. I just don't understand how anyone who questions a certain group's propaganda in which they try to selectively change and distort history is labeled as being casteist. This is the type of argument Bahadur Ali Jee uses when he labels everyone "Islamophobe" who questions any aspect of Islamic propaganda.

Bhai Shaheediyan, I've seen really false claims in Dalit propaganda that is really out there and is at par with Brahman propaganda. I once read a book by Dalits about Sikh history where they make all sorts of false claims such as saying Baba Deep Singh Jee, Maharaja Ranjit Singh Jee, Hari Singh Nalwa were in reality Dalits, but Jatts and others have conspired to hide this fact from the world. Also I don’t have any problem with any Gursikh being of any caste, but I do have a problem with people falsifying our history for their particular agenda. Another tall claim they make is that Guru Nanak Dev Jee was in reality a Bhagat of Bhakt Ravidas Jee and it was from Bhagat Ravidas Jee that he got all his Sikshaa and Naam from. Most Sikhs never believe in our own history, instead we prefer to believe in Sikh history written by Muslims, Brahmans, Dalits, Christians. Once you read Dalit propaganda, you’ll realise that it is no less misleading as Brahmin propaganda, and to an extent even more falsely vicious against its target enemy. It’s not just Sikh history that they like to distort. They will even distort the history of India by making claims that Ashok was a Dalit when in fact he was a Kshatiya of the royal family of the Magadh kingdom. According to them the Guptas of the Gupta empire were Dalits when infact their origin is from the Dharan Jats. Another claim is that Ravan was a Dalit king when in fact Ravan was the son of a Brahmin Rishi named Vishrava. Ravan himself had mastered the knowledge of the Vedas and other Vedic sciences. Just because Dalit propaganda writes against Brahmins does not make them our friends either. We need to stop thinking that an enemy of an enemy is a friend. Dalit propagandists have their own agenda which is not the same as our agenda and if need be, they will even use their propaganda machine against the Sikh Panth as they use it against Hindus and Brahmins.

Alot of this is usually all Dalit propaganda which Khalistanis adopted and often make references to. Propaganda should always be taken in with a pinch of salt. I myself at one point of my life would beleive in all this blindly. But as I read Dalit propaganda over and over again I realised that much of their history is very Dalit centric and when it comes to Dalits and Sikhs, they will never hesitate to even portray Sikhs as they portray Hindus in their propaganda. As a result I began reading up on the real established reasons of why buddhism declined in India, and often times it's quite contradictory to Dalit propaganda which uses history very selectively to portray Hindus as some type of super evil genius as white supremecists portray Jews. As Sikhs we need to use Bibek Buddhi, and this propaganda should be read but should never ever blindly beleived. Do as I did, read this Dalit propaganda while also reading books about the history of India written by unbiased sources and see if they match.

Londondajatt, who is Baba Didar Singh Jee? do you have a picture of them? Baba Jagjit Singh Jee is a true Mahpursh. If one reads books by this Mahpursh you can learn alot about Sikh spirituality.

londondajatt, just curious, but would you consider the Radhaswamis, SachaSaoda and the likes to be Sikhs who although beleive in our 10 Gurus but claim to be Sikhs?

Nothing is wrong with marital traditions like cultural songs and dances, traditions are good and should be kept. But problem is the anti Gurmat things like alcohol, dowry, len-dhen and mixing them with a holy ceremony of Anand Karaj.

If the Chakri is spun fast enough then I guess it should be able to stop some arrows. Although I'm not against the Chakri, but I find it strange that Sikhs have almost completely abandoned the beautiful art of archery yet they have preserved using the Chakri. Now that's something to think about. We have no knowledge about archery anymore. We don't even know what type of bow the puraatan Singhs used whether they were Turkish, Mongol, Bhil or some other indigenous bow. Sad really. After knowing how to use the sword, I think archery is the ideal for a Sikh warrior to learn.

That's interesting. I've also heard that Khalsa raaj will happen in our life time. I've heard that alot of Shaheed Singhs are taking birth right now. According to a book I read about Baba Karam Singh Hoti Mardan is that that the Singh who will start Khalsa raj will come from the Khorasan-frontier area. I wonder why that area.

Chatanga, Veer the way I think of it is that, the fact that people who do Laanati stuff like Len-Dhen, Dhaaj, Lachar Ganay, serve alcohol at marriages yet are also allowed to carry out the Holy ceremony of the Anand Karaj is an insult to Guru Maharaj. Call me a fanatic, but why the hell are these people who obviously dont respect the Guru's way allowed to do marriage in a Anand Karaj when they are going to do all these things in there marriage? That's an insult to the Anand Karaj. They should be doing the old vedi agni style marriages as far as I'm concearned. At least the Namdharis dont do any of that stuff in their marriages. They keep it simple just the way Baba Ram Singh Jee told them to do it. Infact, the saddest thing is anyone who doesn't do Len-Dhen, Dhaaj, Lachar Ganay, serve alcohol in their marriage is considered a person with very low wordly standard by our Laanati Samaaj We may not agree with Namdharis 100% in some things, but I give them credit where they deserve it over us. They are more Pakkay to their Rehet then we are to ours. They deserve a pat on the back for that.

Chatanga, I think it's just how Namdharis do their marriage. I'm sure non Sikhs can also nit pick a thousand questions about our Anand Karaj as well. Right now, the way most Sikhs do marriage, they ask for dowry, len-dhen, serve alcohol, Lachar Ganay etc. First we need to clean all that out of our marriages then only shall we have the right to question anyone else. Namdharis in comparision dont have any of that stuff in their marriages.

The dilruba plus the kepboard gives it a nice haunting sound. I like it.

Mechane'ch Jannat Ji, I learn a lot from your posts. Thank you.

Those were the good old days when Singhs respected each other's groups even if they disagreed. Now Singhs from all groups are more into sectarianism, almost like Muslims.

During the olden days, in some parts of Punjab where Muslims dominated the Punjab, Sikhs and Hindus did adopt many customs of the Muslims such as Purdah. In some parts women were not even allowed to come in a room where another man was present who was not related to her. After the Singh Sabha movement, the Purdah custom was no longer followed. But still in India, un married girls from Khandani, traditional families avoid going infront of men who are not related to them.

Wow, Freed you are amazing. Seeing all the hand written bani, I wish this tradition was revived in the Panth.

Well, I dont know how true this is, but this is what a Singh once told me many years ago when I asked him the same thing. The Singh told me that the reason why Sikhs have Anandkaraj before 12 is because during the olden days, when Muslims would kidnap Hindu women during their marriage, the Hindus began performing their marriages at night to avoid kidnapping. But when the Khalsa was created, Dasam Patshah said the Khalsa will perform marriage during the day and out in the open without fear of the Muslims, because if the Muslims were to mess with the Khalsa they know whats coming to them. That is why Sikhs have wedding out in the open during day light without any fear while Hindus still have it in the night. Even some other of our traditions hint towards this, like during olden times the Janj would all carry swords so it was almost like a small army in itself to protect the new bride, but today only the groom carries it symbolically.

During the olden times, both bride and groom had to be amritdhari in order to have an Anandkaraj. Within my own family, my elders tell me that some of their family was not religious, but back then only Amritdharis could have Anand Karaj, so they had to take Amrit just in order to have an AnandKaraj even if they would not follow the rehet afterwards. Any Sikh who was not Amritdharis had to marry the Hindu way around the fire. But the last 75 years, as the population of Amritdharis has decreased and Sahajdharis increased, the Anandkaraj rules have become from flexible to include everyone. Now the Anandkaraj is even performed for interreligious couples where the girl is a Sikh and the boy follows some other religioun. It's just a matter of time i think that we will soon see even Homosexuals having Anand karaj performed at their weddings. It wouldn't surprise me.

Sant Kartar Singh Jee wrote his own Autobiography?

That was a very good book to read. You learn alot about Kashmir. I can't help but think that maybe Punjab's demographic make up would have been the same as Kashmir had Sikhs not been in Punjab to fight against Islamic oppression.