drawrof

The 'bards' (bhats)...also have bani included in guru granth sahib ji.... As per gyani gurbachan singh ji, I do not believe that he ate meat after taking tutolage of sant sundar singh.....has anything contrary to that been said? I mean, if he had taken amrit from the buddha dal and he partook of jhatka, I can understand but it would be an anachronism to assume he continued eating meat....has that been implied?

Hello folks, I felt I had something constructive to add here, Firstly 4 samparda's is a construct...it may be seen as statically 4, but it never was. Think about it, we had 52 manji's, the masands were considered saints in their own right (refer to the taksali raihras or sant kirpal singh teeka of guru granth sahib on the shabad 'kahay re ve man chitvaih udham' and see the importance and praise given to bhai madho)/. The sikhs of these masands were called 'sehlangi'....where the 'khalsa' were those under the direct initiation of the guru....then you have udasi's who did prachar. You also have the rababi's who used parmans in their kirtan to do parchar. You have nirmally who 'generally' were situated closer to the big centers of pilgrimage. Yes, there were singhs like bhai punjab singh who went upto kashmir but they were generally learning/studying. You had udasi's who were more focused on the local village level of things (as a group though they are very varied and can almost be deemed pan-indian in their focus). There were always fewer nirmallay in the past (and today) than there were udasi's. Then you have suthra shahi's who had their own blessings, who later joined with udasi's, same with a sect of the mina's I believe, then you have sevapanthi's who learned from nirmallay and they became a taksal of their own (dera sato gali). Then you have the bedi's, the sodhi's, sindhi's....all who claim the gurus blessed them!....the point is that alot of different groups claim to be 'sikhs'.... Regarding the issue of nirmala patronage by the malwa sardars: Maharaja ala singh of patiala had a nirmala ( I forgot his name) who was patroned by him....It was the sardars from malwa who signed the treaty with the british to have protection against maharaja ranjit singh and they were also the ones who were later patroned more. I believe nirmally themselves have this understanding that the panchayati akhara was formed out of them. Not all nirmalay were in agreeance (ie. bhai mehtab singh, the first sri mahant did not adhere to the wearing of the 5 kakkars). Rattan singh bhangu talks about how the majha sardars are true sikhs etc etc....and when giani takur singh of the taksal passed on the whole majha/malwa debate came back into effect with regards to successorship....this issue is steeped in something that spans a couple of centuries.... The nihang/nirmala issue is huge. Gyani gyan singh was beaten by nihang singhs for sitting on a taabia without a kachera (as he wore a langota). Naveen panth parkash (which people were banned from reading in the dal) was not favorable to the nihangs at all after that point, bharat mat darpan (written by mahant ganesha singh...where teja singh nirmala <the dude from sarbloh.info> is the preciding head) spoke of nihangs in a very derogatory way (read my old posts). Having a utopian ideal that everyone within any one samparda, faction of a samparda, inter-samparda is just ludicrous and naive at best. How many people here have experienced family tensions and issues?....if one isn't completely at peace with people at home or those who you are closest with ALL the time; then it is just ignorant to think that samparda's will be buddy buddy just because they have a place to belong in this world! Udasi's and nihangs had closer bonds. Udasi's disliked for nirmallay for a long time. They banned them from eating langar with them in the 1700's at the kumbh mela, and the nirmallay organized themselves therein. We know that gurbaksh das (an udasi) was given control of cis-ganj and sobha singh (a nihang) was given control of anandpur sahib by guru gobind singh before he went off to nander.....that one point is enough for 2 groups with the same enemy to join together. Udasi's also see their blessings as being older and more puratan. The nihang view, from what I know, is that amrit sanchar's generally happened at the takhats and who controlled the takhats? also, we forget that we are 'cyber-lords' these days. We are going through so much change (heck, I find life has changed so much technologically etc etc...in the past 10 years)....things were more static before, and when you have groups that remained more strong on preserving their identity and their stature...that old habits and paradigms would break hard. Even now, I don't know of too many nihangs (that I've met in india, who actually like nirmallay). I am not in the uk, so I can't speak for anyone there....I'd like to give the people that I know there some credit and say that people probably have a mutual respect of older olders and traditions.

I read the book, I found that anyone who wants to understand sikhi in the context of a social, political and dynamic environment will benefit from this as we are so often introduced to a form of sikhi which is contextualised in a vacum of high ideals, morals, ethics....

I'd like to agreee with Shaheediyan here. Although I am of the firm belief that words in themselves take on a different contextualised meaning depending on the receiver of the message. For instance, Maya and its form/nuances/ontological position will differ depending on whether you talk to a vaishnu or shaiv (these 2 being used to describe 2 polar generic stances in a larger spectrum). Shaheediyan, I agree with you about faridkotee teeka, but I'm interested in why you chose that specific teeka to be a signifier of a traditional exegesis? Thanks in advance

Hello Folks, I will contribute here by addressing some issues brought for by my younger brother N30. I actually came to conclusion with having vichar with many senior gurmukhs, even though bhramgyani does not need to have vikayaran in mind when explaining tat gyan of certain shabad, naturally it will not go against vikayaran rules created by guru maharaj themselves. There are 2 suppositions here that are brought forth. Firstly, There is a supposition that viakaran was created by the gurus. Secondly, It is assumed that a ‘brahm gyani’ would naturally not go against these rules……is the postulate being brought forth that viakaran is somehow ‘mystical’ or ‘sacred’? It's true that gurbani meaning cannot be bound to just grammar because its dhur ki bani but it also true that dhur ki bani was expressed in form of grammar. Again, dhur ki bani…..what is meant by this? Does bani mean gurbani? Does it mean a the primal sound and its emanation? Does it refer to the state/stature of braham (ie. Baan, where N is a naana)? I don't think its right to say that you don't need vikayaran to understand basic teachings of gurbani, its like saying you don't need english grammar to understand poetry of english. It goes hand in hand, the main problem is not vikayaran/grammar but the main problem is in the past, scholars have to tried to bind gurbani with soo called vikayaran rules which were inconsistent with gurbani itself. These so called vikayaran/grammar rules were refuted by many mahapursh ie- sant gurbachan singh ji bhindranwale. I see viakaran as a means to codify gurbani. For one to assume that one can understand or experience a sublime state via codified linguistics is a bit far fetched, but to say that a mahapurash (who we would not know is one or not unless we are ones ourself or have had experiences to make us believe so or have faith that they are or someone we have faith in believes that they are) also has its flaws. Kirpa/gurparsad is greater and beyond all means we use to try to connect with the higher source. Having kirpa in itself does not mean that the fine subtleties are mastered, although you are a walking-living example of the essence. The vikayaran set full proof rules are still yet to be discovered, can be only discovered by Guru's grace. Yes, if they need to be discovered and a great blanket statement that can be applied to everything In order to discover it, this jiv surti's have to reach the level of guru's state when dhur ki bani was expressed in form of grammar by guru's themselves. Again, there are pothi’s with gurbani that aren’t standard and can’t be used as a definitive standard because the grammar (per se) is not coherent with other such pothis. I also wonder at times whether bani is referring to the words of gurbani or whether it is referring to the state or experience of god/parmeshwar that is being experienced. Frankly, no one has reached that level nor there is any need to reach that level, one cannot compare themselves with guru's state, that's why many mahapursh don't pay much need to do khoj of vikayaran rules or vikayaran modern rules but rather gives tat gyan of shabad(main thing) to jaigaso so they can reflect on the shabad. I mean main aim of life is to do abhyaas of gurbani. Whilst, we should encourage khoj of gurbani, there is certainly no need for everyone to start psycho analysis gurbani based on individual understanding of vikayaran. In the past people have tried to use vikayaran rules but failed and will continue to fail if they keep using their matt. I know the essence of n30’s points come down to this last paragraph and I do agree with his main point

I've seen his pic here in brampton at one of the local sweet shops....any news?

I liked the article. I liked his approach with everything. I'm glad he's thrown out these terms because anyone who isn't familiar can research them, and anyone who is familiar with the terms can do further research and see it for themselves. Thanks

nuff pyaar m8, bhai sahib radio wallay (not sant like of pend 'radio' who drinks daudh all the time) was well cherdikallah inni'?

Dear cul, I believe you mean to say according to panj sau sakhi, sau sakhi, prem sumarag granth, and kalki avtar savayay.....sikhs believe in kalki avtar.. I have not come into any mention of this in Guru Granth Sahib ji

Fair enough, Why those 5? (I ask out of understanding the reasoning behind it) Do they focus on chakars? What is their view of kirtan? Is meditation their crux for everything, is it any different for sikhs? Thanks

simple question, with the meditative aspect, what makes radhasoami's different than sikhs? (excluding saas-graas as per the akj). thanks

Shaheediyan's post is well taken. I'll be more serious and offer something constructive from now on

Unbreakable, Nice points! I personally don't think sikhi was meant to be a 'religion' per se, but due circumstances and developments have made it into that. On that premise alone, I think your argument is absolutely correct in the example above... muslim- Mohammed is the saviour of all mankind sikh-yeah but, the athiest's think we are cool. gotta love the weather

Finally, up and running...until this locks me out. I gotta make this one quick and then I'll get back to everyone with those pm's....yes I do take credit cards and have a webcam now .... Uggardanti was found appended to the patna bir. I have personally seen it in old gutka's. I suggest we abstain from using the word puratan because it indicates a definitive trend and stick to 'old' or 'puranay'...I know I sound anal, but you'll have needless debates about authenticities when those gutkay/birs could have been one offs! Amardeep, I haven't heard of it in any rehitnama's and it is considered apocryphal. We must also remember that mystifying things with 'rarities' has been a clever tactic of movements to enroll the disillusioned. I've missed you guys. I'll be posting more...provided N30 hooks me up with some good lovin'. my kot kot parnaam to all! Fateh and shalom

I believe I can fly, I believe I can touch the sky.....

oh shoot, thanks karmjeet! you're a veer !

so can I still masturbate?

Well, to be honest, I don't see why discussing anything against hemkunt sahib is bad. Bhai vir singh is the person who founded the place according to his understanding of gur partap sooraj granth. The professor, like many others, is trying to get people to look within gurbani. I find him quite boring to be honest, and there are probably 2 shabads of his I like (but that is mostly due to familiarity of growing up with them). Apart from that, He really doesn't go into great depth..he just deconstructs everything to a few basic notions...that becomes the ethical norm (like many missionaries) and then politicizes everything. For a dumb guy, I like the intellectual stuff. Speaking of which, there are things kala afghana had said that were interesting...I don't agree with his overall stance/view of things though.

I didn't get a chance to meet him, but again...very sad news. Let us celebrate all the good he did and all the positivity he shared.

Sorry, to add, most nirmallay I've come across or heard about have singh appended to their name.

Isn't this Darshan das's sect?...Darshan Das was murdered wasn't he?

The Sri Maan Sant from the Udasi Samparda doing Katha. Very good i must say http://img137.imageshack.us/img137/7597/cap055fe2.th.png I believe this is 'Jagat Hari ji'. I heard his katha as well. I found it to be very profound and deep....doesn't say much coming from a shallow guy with a bad sense of humor though

I don't read tikkay, I just make it up as I go because guruji talks to me directly...

When there is a revisionist mindset, the old vision has to systemically become obliterated and debunked.....the true merit lies in how seamlessly the new 'revised' model correlates to society and developed thought outside its own ecosystem

It is for this reason I believe it is an unraveling process as opposed to a scrooging naam/bhagti method!