dalsingh101

Another attempt at the first sentence, I think I figured out the words in the beginning bit:

ਸੋ ਅਸਾ ਸੋ ਸੋਹੰ ਭਇਓ ਸੋਹੰ ਓਅੰਕਾਰ ਓਅੰ ਸੋਰਾਰਾ ਭਉ ਸਾਧੋ ਕਰੋ ਬਿਚਾਰਾ।
That is me, he is I that happened, that which is I is Oankar , Oansorara, the sadhus deliberate on fearing [that one].


Peter Pan: You've got a fascinating manuscript here. It's obviously a Sikh poets devotional work and the vocab shows intimate knowledge of Sikh scriptures. For instance this bit here:


Strongly resembles Jaap Sahib from the Dasam Granth. PS - That second doc looks like a Janam Sakhi and the first sakhi is one concerning Kalu Mehta's efforts to have his son (the young Baba Nanak) educated.

So why don't you try and offer a translation then?

Addition: I just checked the original text again - from what I can see there is no way that isn't
ਭਉ



How do you make it bhav????

I've attached the page and underlined the word, incase you're looking at something else?

Interesting fragment from 10004:

The first sentence is a fragment, couldn't make the start out: Here's a quick bash at translation -

ਓਅੰਕਾਰ ਓਅੰਸੋਰਾਰਾ ਭਉ ਸਾਧੋ ਕਰੋ ਬਿਚਾਰਾ। The saints deliberate on fearing Oankar Oansorara(?) Now it starts rhyming: ਸਾਧੋ ਕਰੋ ਬਿਚਾਰਉ ਲਿਟ ਘਰ ਅਪਨੇ ਆਵੋ। The saints preach that we should come home and lie down ਘਟਿ ਘਟਿ ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਅਨੂਪ ਸਮਟ ਕਰਤ ਹਸ਼ਮਵੋ। Brahm gathers rare laughter within hearts ਚਾਰ ਬੇਦ ਕਾ ਭੇਦੁ ਹੈ ਗੀਤਾ ਕਾ ਹੈ ਜੀਓ। Is the mystery of the four vedas; the understanding of the gita ਨਾਨਕ ਦਾਸ ਲਖੈ ਆਪ ਕਉ ਤੌ ਮੈ ਤੇਰਾ ਪੀਉ। The slave of Nanak knows to himself; that's why I am your beloved ਸਭ ਜੋਗਨ ਮੈ ਜੌਗ ਸਭ ਗਿਆਨਨ ਕੋ ਗਿਆਨ। The yogi of all yogas, the knower of all knowledge ਸਭ ਸਿਧਨ ਕੋ ਸਿਧ ਹੈ ਤਤ ਸੋਰਨ ਕੋ ਧਿਆਨ। The Siddh of all Siddhs, ???? ਬ੍ਰਹਮਗਿਆਨ ਕੋ ਜਪ(?)


Interesting speculation: at the mo (to me), it appears to be some devotional work that isn't Gurbani. It's obviously heavily influenced by Sikh religious poetry. It seems to be some poets devotional composition.

I think a lot of Sikhs like to shake off responsibility and effort by believing that Guru ji will come to sort all the mess around us out, instead of actively trying to do anything serious themselves.

It's like a comfortable crutch and a perfect excuse to fail to act ourselves.

Even a simpleton should be able to see that Guru ji did everything (to the point of sacrificing their own family) to educate, uplift and empower Sikhs to look after themselves - not only physically/militarily but spiritually and socially.

I think a lot of Sikhs like to shake off responsibility and effort by believing that Guru ji will come to sort all the mess around us out, instead of actively trying to do anything serious themselves.

It's like a comfortable crutch and a perfect excuse to fail to act ourselves.

Even a simpleton should be able to see that Guru ji did everything (to the point of sacrificing their own family) to educate, uplift and empower Sikhs to look after themselves - not only physically/militarily but spiritually and socially.

I did a major clanger here:

ਭਉ is fear, not love!

I edited the previous post to reflect.

Interesting fragment from 10004:

The first sentence is a fragment, couldn't make the start out: Here's a quick bash at translation -

ਓਅੰਕਾਰ ਓਅੰਸੋਰਾਰਾ ਭਉ ਸਾਧੋ ਕਰੋ ਬਿਚਾਰਾ। The saints deliberate on fearing Oankar Oansorara(?) Now it starts rhyming: ਸਾਧੋ ਕਰੋ ਬਿਚਾਰਉ ਲਿਟ ਘਰ ਅਪਨੇ ਆਵੋ। The saints preach that we should come home and lie down ਘਟਿ ਘਟਿ ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਅਨੂਪ ਸਮਟ ਕਰਤ ਹਸ਼ਮਵੋ। Brahm gathers rare laughter within hearts ਚਾਰ ਬੇਦ ਕਾ ਭੇਦੁ ਹੈ ਗੀਤਾ ਕਾ ਹੈ ਜੀਓ। Is the mystery of the four vedas; the understanding of the gita ਨਾਨਕ ਦਾਸ ਲਖੈ ਆਪ ਕਉ ਤੌ ਮੈ ਤੇਰਾ ਪੀਉ। The slave of Nanak knows to himself; that's why I am your beloved ਸਭ ਜੋਗਨ ਮੈ ਜੌਗ ਸਭ ਗਿਆਨਨ ਕੋ ਗਿਆਨ। The yogi of all yogas, the knower of all knowledge ਸਭ ਸਿਧਨ ਕੋ ਸਿਧ ਹੈ ਤਤ ਸੋਰਨ ਕੋ ਧਿਆਨ। The Siddh of all Siddhs, ???? ਬ੍ਰਹਮਗਿਆਨ ਕੋ ਜਪ(?)


Interesting speculation: at the mo (to me), it appears to be some devotional work that isn't Gurbani. It's obviously heavily influenced by Sikh religious poetry. It seems to be some poets devotional composition.

I'm guessing some Sikhs have shanka - doubts over sikhi to the point they don't even believe in those kurbanis (acts of sacrifice/martyrdom) because there are instances of miracles and the super natural makes people doubt the entire thing, like Baba Deep Singh picking up his own head to fight.
But with that there have been Sikhs who have been beheaded in Pakistan and Afghanistan recently, perhaps people put that down to minor disputes, not one my caste/relative. Perhaps people are wrapped around the media so much that if the mainstream media don't cover Sikhs being killed in Afghanistan it never happened for them, but at the same time we don't hear about the beatings the taliban give to other muslims like lashing going on.

Maybe Sikh history is depressing and you can get away from it but getting away from mainstream media is hard, but with many media stories they get forgotten about over time, current affairs don't always make it to the history lessons of tomorrow.

Perhaps due to some sikhs feeling xenophobia/racism/contempt as of late due to mistaken identity with islamists and increase in coverage of islamist atrocities, many people want an apology from those with the islamist kin, we can't always separate ourselves from other humans and some people just have businesses, careers, education relationships to maintain and build and it's easier to say sorry for something you have nothing to do with or have relation with then to actually explain that you have nothing to do with it. I think many "Asiatic" religions have been brushed over to be branches of islamism at the moment by some less than affluent folk who have become a vocal minority.

Could these be somehow related to the King Ranjit singh, as someone mentioned here a name "kishan singh" and
Bishan Singh & Kishan singh were famous artists in the court of Ranjit singh, and I think it would fit well in the mentioned time frame of samat 1879,
but these are just speculations without proper proof !

The words ਨਾਨਕ ਦਾਸ ਰਣਜੀਤ (the slave of Nanak, Ranjeet) occur a couple of times at least, which might be a clue to the author?

Bhagat, I tried some searches too, you're right: whatever the text is, it doesn't appear to be from SGGS ji?

I notice it says the following: I'm going to try a translation. People chip in. I'm sure I've got things wrong! lol

ਤਾਹੀ ਕੋ ਮਨ ਆਨਾ। The mind goes to you ਤਾਹੀ ਕਉ ਮਨ ਅਲ ਰਾਤਿ ਦਿਨ ਸੁਰਤ ਲਗਾਵੈ। To you does the bee-mind attach its attention, night and day (I'm guessing the meaning of ਅਲ here) ਅਪਾ ਆਪ ਬਿਸਾਰ ਅੱਵਰ ਨਹੀ ਸੀਸ ਨਿਵਾਵਹੁ। You yourself make us forget, I bow my head to no other. Plus we have a date! ਸੰਮਤਾ Sumta (Indian calender) 1879. I have no idea what date that corresponds to in the modern system. Do you recall the name of the 'misl' your grandma may have mentioned?

Thank you sir for the reply and the insight,
I'll try scanning more pages if I can or take pictures, as you can see the second one is in very poor shape and the pages very delicate and brittle.

All I can tell is that these along with some other family heirlooms were passed down to my grandmother from her family,
she used to say that these were giving as a gift to her ancestors from the founding members of some "misls".
she was very protective of these and also asked me not to give these to anyone whatsoever,
Her family were of landowners in peshawar before the partion of india, her grandfather was in british army and her father was a physics professor at fc college, Lahore.
After the partition they moved to Amritsar, India and then after sometime to South-Africa.

Hiya Peter Pan

Sorry to hear about your loss. It's good to hear that you've found some solace in spirituality. Keep steady; one day at a time.

I noticed on one page of your gutka it appears to say the writer was someone called Kishan Singh?

It also says 'Waheguru Ji ki Fateh' which gives it a post Khalsa dating (i..e sometime after 1699 at least).

The first page seems to say Mohala 1 which would indicate it is Baba Nanak's composition?

I'm real busy right now but will try and have a closer look when I get a sec. You're on the right forum for this though!

Can you tell more about the manuscripts history if possible - maybe related to your own family history, locations, origins?


ਆਪਾ ਆਪ ਬਿਸਾਰ

You sound like you know what you are doing!


Good luck brother!

Wishing you every success. I think having multiple searchable Gurmukhi texts available will be an immense step in the development of the language.

It would especially useful to try and isolate semantic meanings of words that have fallen out of modern use for instance.

Some words of Bhagat Kabir, which are full of wisdom and truth, working as a mirror and mind opener, for those who say that Shia Islam and Sikhee are similar, or Baba Nanak was a muslim.....

ਕਿਆ ਉਜੂ ਪਾਕੁ ਕੀਆ ਮੁਹੁ ਧੋਇਆ ਕਿਆ ਮਸੀਤਿ ਸਿਰੁ ਲਾਇਆ ॥ ਜਉ ਦਿਲ ਮਹਿ ਕਪਟੁ ਨਿਵਾਜ ਗੁਜਾਰਹੁ ਕਿਆ ਹਜ ਕਾਬੈ ਜਾਇਆ
What good are your purifications?
Why do you bother to wash your face?
And why do you bother to bow your head in the mosque?
Your heart is full of hypocrisy; what good are your prayers or your pilgrimage to Mecca?


ਤੂੰ ਨਾਪਾਕੁ ਪਾਕੁ ਨਹੀ ਸੂਝਿਆ ਤਿਸ ਕਾ ਮਰਮੁ ਨ ਜਾਨਿਆ ॥ ਕਹਿ ਕਬੀਰ ਭਿਸਤਿ ਤੇ ਚੂਕਾ ਦੋਜਕ ਸਿਉ ਮਨੁ ਮਾਨਿਆ
You are impure; you do not understand the Pure Lord. You do not know His Mystery. Says Kabeer, you have missed out on paradise; your mind is set on hell.



Sat Sree Akal.

Ramgarhia , you dont have to prove anything to your friends , if sikhism inspires you , makes you a better person , you want to learn more from within , then carry on learning when your time comes waherguru will do kirpa on you and make you a true gursikh of Guru Gobind Singh Ji , but dont stop seek guidance from someone who is on the path already, seek guidance from the Guru ( sri guru granth sahib ji ) ..

If your mates say your a hindu , then so what , if your mates say your a sikh again then so what ....as jaikaarra mentions its inside you , if you know the truth , that what matters most , its from your actions people will realise the truth .

You guys know how I love art, comic book stuff included. Here's Joe Sacco's take on recent events:

Raag Raamkali Dakhni Guru Nanak Dev


ਨਾਮ ਵਿਹੂਣਾ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਕਿਵ ਹੋਈ
Naam Vihoonaa Mukath Kiv Hoee
नाम विहूणा मुकति किव होई
Without the Naam, the Name of the Lord, how can anyone find liberation?


ਵਿਣੁ ਨਾਵੈ ਵੇਰੋਧੁ ਸਰੀਰ
Vin Naavai Vaerodhh Sareer
विणु नावै वेरोधु सरीर
Without the Name, even one's own body is an enemy.


ਵਾਟ ਵਟਾਊ ਆਵੈ ਜਾਇ
Vaatt Vattaaoo Aavai Jaae
वाट वटाऊ आवै जाइ
The traveller comes and goes along the highway.

ਕਿਆ ਲੇ ਆਇਆ ਕਿਆ ਪਲੈ ਪਾਇ
Kiaa Lae Aaeiaa Kiaa Palai Paae
किआ ले आइआ किआ पलै पाइ
What did he bring when he came, and what will he take away when he goes?


ਵਿਣੁ ਨਾਵੈ ਤੋਟਾ ਸਭ ਥਾਇ
Vin Naavai Thottaa Sabh Thhaae
विणु नावै तोटा सभ थाइ
Without the Name, one loses everywhere.


ਵਿਣੁ ਨਾਵੈ ਕੈਸੀ ਪਤਿ ਸਾਰੀ
Vin Naavai Kaisee Path Saaree
विणु नावै कैसी पति सारी
Without the Name, how can one find honor and nobility?

New Math

A boy was teaching a girl arithmetic, he said it was his mission.

He kissed her once; he kissed her twice and said, “Now that’s addition.”

In silent satisfaction, she sweetly gave the kisses back and said, “Now that’s subtraction.”

Then he kissed her, she kissed him, without an explanation.

And both together smiled and said, “That’s multiplication.”

Then her Dad appeared upon the scene and made a quick decision.

He kicked that boy three blocks away and said, “That’s long division!”

who cares. let her face the consequences of her actions. do something positive in your life and help those sikh and hindu refugees who are coming over from pakistan. they actually need help unlike this girl who is just spoiled. they kept their faith despite all the hardships.

I met him during the eighties in a seminar in Amritsar. He was very polite and reserved, and would give his opinion in very precise words. I really admired him for his objective approach. There wasn't any history postgraduate claas at Khalsa College Jallandhar but Pajabi MA. However, he was invited to give special talks to undergraduate students on Sikh history. I remember listening to him about Persian sources such as Tuzak-i-jahangiri on Guru Arjan Dev ji's martyredom. Satbir Singh had been telling us alwats about Chandu and Pirthi Chand.

Three oldest copies of Chaupa Singh Rahitnama that HW McLeod says existed before 1984 were one in Sikh Reference Library, another one in Guru Nanak Dev University, and the third one at Khalsa College Amritsar. He copied the one at Sikh reference Library before Blue Star in 1982. he compared his copy notes meticulously with the. other two at Khalsa College and Guru Nanak University. They all seemrd to be copy of a single source. he later found that the source was a copythat ued to be at Damdama Sahib. Ultimately he published his book Chaupa Singh Rahitnama by crefully comparing and using the texts from the three sources. He is not alive today however, he had deposited all his notes and papers on this with Guru Nank Dev University. Incidently, All the three versions have the same sentence "Jo Sikhni nu Khande di Pahul deve so tankhahia".
The only variant version in print is that published by Piara Singh Padam that has the same sentence with added word 'na' in it making it, "Jo Sikhni nu Khande di Pahul na deve so Tankhahia". Padam hasn't given any satisfactory source reference helping the reader to confirm it.

I was able to locate 52 bachans in Principal Satbir Singh's book 'Aad Sikh te Aad Sakhian' published in 1987. It is the last sakhi of the book. He does not mention the original source. Somewhere else Satbir Singh is said to have said that he had seen these bachans in 'Gurdware Darshan' published by Giani Thakur Singh in 1915. I had a look at this book. However I was unable to find these in it. Principal Satbir Singh used to be a lecturer of history at Lyallpur Khalsa College Jallandhar during late fifties when I was a student there. I had seen him critisising teachers of history and literature for their political views that according to him they should have been deeply religious and pro-Akali being teachers in a Khalsa college. Teacher of literature criticised was Sant Singh Sekhon teaching Panjabi M A classes part-time. While in hostel I saw him beat a sweeper who was smoking going home after work. I wasn't much impressed by his scholarship, particularly originality in history as a subject compared with Ganda Singh who used to come occasionally to give a talk to history postgraduate students.

Doval was the bahman who negotiated the release of the three terrorists in order to save the lives of Indian passengers in Kandahar in 1999, One of those terrorists then planned the Mumbai massacre. So to save the passengers, Doval negotiated the release of three terrorists and one of them planned the Mumbai attacks which killed hundreds of people. Again such bahman cunning!

If you give a hoot about every little fudhu comment made about Sikhs on the Internet - you've seriously got too much time on your hands.