SikhKhoj

I support my fact with many sources, not one source unlike you. That dilutes the chance of having a deformed view on a topic because of one bad source. Sau Sakhi is not too authentic in its present form but it forms an additional evidence along the dozens of other proofs I have given.
 

Having been at both ends of the spectrum I have to say that both are wrong on some levels. I was raised in a family with Taksal influence, have kathavachaks in my extended family but while growing up I was influenced by the missionary mindset. Have discarded both since though.

The forte of one side actually becomes a hindrance. While traditional schools have the adequate sharda and belief in Guru Sahibs powers, they go overboard in the sharda and have a hard time analyzing certain questionable rituals, traditions and writings because either they are blinded by certain 'mahapursh bachans' or an effect called 'cognitive dissonance'.

The missionaries are good in the sense that they try to evaluate Sikh traditions and other writings based on Guru Granth Sahibs philosophy, but they go overboard in over questioning and as you said, making Dharam black and white like judeo-christian traditions.

That's really mature ^

Thank god we haven't got the 'Women should take kirpan da amrit' brigade yet, adding another dimension altogether to this discussion haha

Satkirin, call Paapi out on his hypocrisy where he accepts Baba Gurbachan Singh Bhindranwale as a Mahapurkh who was all knowing yet defies the Baba by saying Muhammad was holy... While Baba said Muhammad was a thief and murderer.
Paapi can accept Taksals defaming position of women but not about Muhammad?

Thank god we haven't got the 'Women should take kirpan da amrit' brigade yet, adding another dimension altogether to this discussion haha

Thank god we haven't got the 'Women should take kirpan da amrit' brigade yet, adding another dimension altogether to this discussion haha

Thats a pathetic excuse of a debate. But for our punjabi pendu level mentality people, this is a good step. 

Whatever
Bhai Gurbachan Singh DDT, happy?

I support my fact with many sources, not one source unlike you. That dilutes the chance of having a deformed view on a topic because of one bad source. Sau Sakhi is not too authentic in its present form but it forms an additional evidence along the dozens of other proofs I have given.
 

Guru Nanak created Nirmal Panth (pure) according to Bhai Gurdas. Nirmal Panth = Khalsa Panth

There was no changing of teachings, it was the same. Shasters were also worn before guru gobind singh. The tenth Guru just finalised Sikh teachings.

A Sikh does not become Khalsa merely by taking 'amrit' but by the following loving Parmatma. The word Khalsa is mentioned in SGGS.

Page 655, Line 1
ਕਹੁ ਕਬੀਰ ਜਨ ਭਏ ਖਾਲਸੇ ਪ੍ਰੇਮ ਭਗਤਿ ਜਿਹ ਜਾਨੀ ॥੪॥੩॥
Says Kabeer, those humble people become pure - they become Khalsa - who know the Lord's loving devotional worship. ||4||3||
Devotee Kabir


And no Dasam Granth does not mention the 5 Kakkaars, it is a shabad attributed to Nand Lal contained in some Buddha Dal gutkas that might confuse you admin.

But due to some personal commitments (time limit) I can't partake in this interesting debate. I know Sher has some vested interests in denying the importance of kesh and other external rehat which differentiates Sikhs from Hindus.

And its also not the first time that KDSingh and I have the discussion.

Hope someone can take over and guide these two.

The clue lies in the fact that Guru Nanak Sahib wasn't only a saint but also had political teachings and was a revolutionary. Guru Nanak asked his arabic Sikhs to keep kesh (I refer to Syed Prithipal Singh who was an ex Muslim who met these Arabic Sikhs last century). Sobti Sikhs in Iraq also only knew of Guru Nanak but kept uncut hair.

Gyan Ratnavli and other Janamsakhis clearly mention that Guru Nanak asked Bhai Mardana to keep kesh.

Guru Nanak had long uncut kesh according to Mehervaan Janamsakhi.

Hukam Rajaee Chalna is the biggest proof for Khalsa Rehat of keeping uncut kesh & anti circumcision.

So Shabads adressed to Hindus do not count for Sikhs? Or Shabads to Muslims don't count for Sikhs? Gurbani has one updesh for all humanity, the updesh did not change from person to person. Thats a flawed logic you have there.

Prof Sahib Singh clearly states the the tuk means to stop thinking of hair removal (sunnah - shaving moustache, removing pubic hair, armpit hair) as purity, instead let your sabat soorat (uncircumcised state) be the purity.

ਨਾਪਾਕ ਪਾਕੁ ਕਰਿ ਹਦੂਰਿ ਹਦੀਸਾ ਸਾਬਤ ਸੂਰਤਿ ਦਸਤਾਰ ਸਿਰਾ ॥੧੨॥
ਹੇ ਅੱਲਾ ਦੇ ਬੰਦੇ! (ਵਿਕਾਰਾਂ ਵਿਚ) ਮਲੀਨ ਹੋ ਰਹੇ ਮਨ ਨੂੰ ਪਵਿੱਤਰ ਕਰਨ ਦਾ ਜਤਨ ਕਰ-ਇਹੀ ਹੈ ਰੱਬੀ ਮਿਲਾਪ ਪੈਦਾ ਕਰਨ ਵਾਲੀ ਸ਼ਰਹ ਦੀ ਕਿਤਾਬ। (ਸੁੰਨਤਿ, ਲਬਾਂ ਕਟਾਣ ਆਦਿਕ ਸ਼ਰਹ ਨੂੰ ਛੱਡ ਕੇ) ਆਪਣੀ ਸ਼ਕਲ ਨੂੰ ਜਿਉਂ ਕਾ ਤਿਉਂ ਰੱਖ-ਇਹ (ਲੋਕ ਪਰਲੋਕ ਵਿਚ) ਇੱਜ਼ਤ-ਆਦਰ ਪ੍ਰਾਪਤ ਕਰਨ ਦਾ ਵਸੀਲਾ ਬਣ ਜਾਂਦਾ ਹੈ ॥੧੨॥

How else do you think Sikhs before Guru Gobind Singh reached the stage of Brahmgyan?

Sounds like blasphemy, but to the one who contemplates it seems right.

I would like to clarify that Sikhi is the best path though because other religions have several flaws in their prophets, religious books and customs.

If a non Sikh can achieve this state, then it stands to reason this state is still not 'dependent upon' belief in certain granths...even for a Sikh.

Reaching the state of Brahamgyani (according to Sukhmani Sahib) is dependent upon considering ALL equally (yes even gender), reamining unattached (yes this means no viewing other humans as God like a physical husband - but instead seeing light of God in all), humble, always in rembrance of God, doing good for others, realizing the truth to reality and the soul, knowing God, doing things for common good etc. Nowhere does it say that belief in any specific granth is required for one to reach this state!

In fact, one could still reach this state without ever believing in SGGSJ (as non Sikhs can still find the truth... there is no monopoly on the truth, there is no monopoly on realizing God!)

To say that belief in specific granths etc. is a requirement of a Brahamgyani, then we are pulling themeaning of Brahamgyani down to someone who is veresed in certain sects, belief systems, etc. and that is wrong. And we can see it because one sect will not acknowledge people from other sects as Brahamgyani simply because they don't 'believe' in the same rules or granths etc. THAT's not the definition of Brahamgyani... It's not about how many rules one can follow... or which books someone supports. It's about realizing the truth to reality and acting with full qualities of God.

The eighth Ashtapadee in Sukhmani Sahib gives us a definition of Brahm Giani and a yardstick to measure if an individual has achieved this state of spiritual attainment and enlightenment.

Shalok: The True One is on his mind, and the True One is upon his lips. He sees only the One. O Nanak, these are the qualities of the Brahm Giani. ||1|| Ashtapadee:

The Brahm Giani is always unattached, as the lotus in the water remains detached. The Brahm Giani is always unstained, like the sun, which gives its comfort and warmth to all. The Brahm Giani looks upon all alike, like the wind, which blows equally upon the king and the poor beggar. The Brahm Giani has a steady patience, like the earth, which is dug up by one, and anointed with sandal paste by another. This is the quality of the Brahm Giani: O Nanak, his inherent nature is like a warming fire. ||1||

The Brahm Giani is the purest of the pure; filth does not stick to water. The Brahm Giani mind is enlightened, like the sky above the earth. To the Brahm Giani, friend and foe are the same. The Brahm Giani has no egotistical pride. The Brahm Giani is the highest of the high. Within his own mind, he is the most humble of all. They alone become Brahm Giani, O Nanak, whom God Himself makes so. ||2||

The Brahm Giani is the dust of all. The Brahm Giani knows the nature of the soul. The Brahm Giani shows kindness to all. No evil comes from the Brahm Giani. The Brahm Giani is always impartial. Nectar rains down from the glance of the Brahm Giani. The Brahm Giani is free from entanglements. The lifestyle of the Brahm Giani is spotlessly pure. Spiritual wisdom is the food of the Brahm Giani. O Nanak, the Brahm Giani is absorbed in Gods meditation. ||3||

The Brahm Giani centers his hopes on the One alone. The Brahm Giani shall never perish. The Brahm Giani is steeped in humility. The Brahm Giani delights in doing good to others. The Brahm Giani has no worldly entanglements. The Brahm Giani holds his wandering mind under control. The Brahm Giani acts in the common good. The Brahm Giani blossoms in fruitfulness. In the Company of the Brahm Giani, all are saved. O Nanak, through the Brahm Giani, the whole world meditates on God. ||4||

The Brahm Giani loves the One Lord alone. The Brahm Giani dwells with God. The Brahm Giani takes the Naam as his Support. The Brahm Giani has the Naam as his Family. The Brahm Giani is awake and aware, forever and ever. The Brahm Giani renounces his proud ego. In the mind of the Brahm Giani, there is supreme bliss. In the home of the Brahm Giani, there is everlasting bliss. The Brahm Giani dwells in peaceful ease. O Nanak, the Brahm Giani shall never perish. ||5||

The Brahm Giani knows God. The Brahm Giani is in love with the One alone. The Brahm Giani is carefree. Pure are the Teachings of the Brahm Giani. The Brahm Giani is made so by God Himself. The Brahm Giani is gloriously great. The Darshan, the Blessed Vision of the Brahm Giani, is obtained by great good fortune. To the Brahm Giani, I make my life a sacrifice. The Brahm Giani is sought by the great god Shiva. O Nanak, the Brahm Giani is Himself the Supreme Lord God. ||6||

The Brahm Giani cannot be appraised. The Brahm Giani has all within his mind. Who can know the mystery of the Brahm Giani? Forever bow to the Brahm Giani. The Brahm Giani cannot be described in words. The Brahm Giani is the Lord and Master of all. Who can describe the limits of the Brahm Giani? Only the Brahm Giani can know the state of the Brahm Giani. The Brahm Giani has no end or limitation. O Nanak, to the Brahm Giani, bow forever in reverence. ||7||

The Brahm Giani is the Creator of the entire world. The Brahm Giani lives forever, and does not die. The Brahm Giani is the Giver of the way of liberation of the soul. The Brahm Giani is the Perfect Supreme Being, who orchestrates all. The Brahm Giani is the helper of the helpless. The Brahm Giani extends his hand to all. The Brahm Giani owns the entire creation. The Brahm Giani is himself the Formless Lord. The glory of the Brahm Giani belongs to the Brahm Giani alone. O Nanak, the Brahm Giani is the Lord of all. ||8||8||


This is my own observation:

According to Sukhmani Sahib, a Brahamgyani remembers the ONE with every breath, sees ONLY THE ONE, looks upon ALL ALIKE (there is no exception for gender here). A Brahamgyani has no Egotistical pride (like wanting to be worshipped as God or bowed to - s/he would rather be seen as a commoner doing good for others), and remains unnattached (focusing on God - not human relationships like physical husband/wife - or telling others to do things that would cause them to form attachments - like worshipping another human as God), and ONLY those who reach this state only the Brahamgyani themselves can ever possibly know since this state can not be described to others. Since the Brahamgyani has fully espoused the qualities of God, there is no difference between them and God (even if only the Brahamgyani themselves know this truth).

This is how Sukhmani Sahib describes a Brahamgyani. Have we abandoned this description, and instead started using the term on any leader of whatever specific sect or jatha we decide to follow? Those from one sect, are highly unlikely to acknowledge someone from another sect as a Brahamgyani. (This has been recently evident on here) So the term has instead become a way to simply describe anyone who is seen as a spiritual leader and has full knowledge of the practices of a specific sect, a measurement of how many rules from that sect someone can follow (we've heard a lot lately the statement 'anyone can talk the talk of a Brahamgyani, but not walk the walk' - sorry to pick on you again Paapiman), then they are given that label by that sect, and then everyone hangs on that label taking their every word as the unadulterated word of God.

But who is truly quialified to give the label of Brahamgyani to someone? Sukhmani Sahib tells us since only those who reach this state can ever know, nobody is qualified to label someone a Brahamgyani. And the true Brahamgyani would be too humble to ever make this statement of themselves since they are 'steeped in humility'.

A Brahamgyani in my thinking would be someone who would do uttmost guide others to reach that same state, without ever calling themselves a Brahamgyani or looking for recognition as such and could equally be the poor person on the street side who still gives his last piece of bread to help another, as someone we might recognize as a leader of specific sect or jatha. In fact, one does not even need to be a Sikh to reach the state described above.

Is this state out of our reach as suggested by someone on here recently? We are told in Gurbani THIS is our chance to meet God. THIS human life... this is our purpose. Not to blindly follow rules and hope that in some future life we meet God. We are told that HERE AND NOW is our chance. Those who would say that 'we can never hope to reach this state' are wrong and are only trying to divert us from the path, delay our spiritual progression. Use this chance... this RARE chance at human life to find God within yourself. See God in everyone and everything. Realize the truth to reality and your own soul. It IS entirely possible but only you can make it happen and only you will know when you have reached this state! Your journey is YOURS alone!

Is there some kind of 'brahmgyani-meter' you use to determine that? If so please let me know where I could get one.

Is there some kind of 'brahmgyani-meter' you use to determine that? If so please let me know where I could get one.

You are foolish for assuming I am an AKJ. Not every anti Taksali is AKJ

Randhir Singh was just a normal human being, he had some good points and some bad points just like Gurbachan Singh Bhindranwala.

In 1971 war, Sikh soldiers covered naked sex slaves of the Pakistani army with their turbans.

ਘਟਿ ਵਸਹਿ ਚਰਣਾਰਬਿੰਦ ਰਸਨਾ ਜਪੈ ਗੁਪਾਲ ॥
Let the Lotus Feet of the Lord abide within your heart, and with your tongue, chant God's Name.
ਹਿਰਦੇ ਵਿਚ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਦੇ ਚਰਨ ਕਮਲ ਵਸਾਈਏ ਤੇ ਜੀਭ ਨਾਲ ਹਰੀ ਨੂੰ ਜਪੀਏ!

ਨਾਨਕ ਸੋ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਸਿਮਰੀਐ ਤਿਸੁ ਦੇਹੀ ਕਉ ਪਾਲਿ ॥੨॥
O Nanak, meditate in remembrance on God, and nurture this body. ||2||
ਹੇ ਨਾਨਕ! ਉਸ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਦਾ ਨਾਮ ਜਪੀਏ ਜਿਸ ਨੇ ਸਰੀਰ ਨੂੰ ਪਾਲਿਆ ਹੈ ॥੨॥

Prof Sahib Singh says the last line means 'remember the gods name who created/nurtured your body'.

But Fareedkoti Teeka seems to agree with the english translation:
ਔਰ ਜਿਸਕੇ (ਘਟਿ) ਅੰਤਸਕਰਣ ਮੇਂ ਅਕਾਲ ਪੁਰਖ ਕੇ ਚਰਣਾਰਬਿੰਦ ਬਸਤੇ ਹੈਂ ਔਰ ਰਸਨਾ ਗੋਪਾਲ ਕਾ ਸਿਮਰਨ ਕਰਤੀ ਹੈ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਗੁਰੂ ਜੀ ਕਹਤੇ ਹੈਂ ਤਿਸ ਦੇਹੀ ਕੀ ਪਾਲਨਾ ਕਰੋ॥੨॥

This person, Paapi, says that every Tuk has a deep meaning but also a superficial meaning which can not be ignored. This is the whole discussion about wife-husband-God.

I feel his theory is flawed because for example, anyone could take this tuks literal meanings and go the Taliban way:

ਜੋ ਸਿਰੁ ਸਾਂਈ ਨਾ ਨਿਵੈ ਸੋ ਸਿਰੁ ਦੀਜੈ ਡਾਰਿ ॥
Chop off that head which does not bow to the Lord.
ਨਾਨਕ ਜਿਸੁ ਪਿੰਜਰ ਮਹਿ ਬਿਰਹਾ ਨਹੀ ਸੋ ਪਿੰਜਰੁ ਲੈ ਜਾਰਿ ॥੧॥
O Nanak, that human body, in which there is no pain of separation from the Lord-take that body and burn it. ||1||

I don't see Sikhs burning people and chopping atheists or non Sikhs up (yet). But if we adopt your flawed mentality we SHOULD be doing that because every tuk has a superficial meaning which is also very important.

First of all, quote me which page of Suraj Parkash in which Raas says Guru Har Rai had 8 wives?

Secondly, this is what your source says about Raagmala, but then your Gurbachan said Raagmala is bani? Who is right?


ਰਾਗਮਾਲ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਗੁਰ ਕੀ ਕ੍ਰਿਤ ਨਹਿ, ਹੈ ਮੁੰਦਾਵਣੀ ਲਗਿ ਗੁਰ ਬੈਨ॥
Ragmala is not the writing of the Guru, the Guru is till Mundavni

(ਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਤਾਪ, ਰਾਸਿ 3, ਅੰਸਿ 49)
(Gur Partap, Raas 3, Ans 49)

Let me blast you. Suraj Parkash also raises doubt on the authenticity of Raag Mala.

Don't be a hypocrite and pick and choose what you believe.