If an amritdhari

[amardeep]

Waheguru ji ka Khalsa, Waheguru ji ki fateh.

Say a man takes amrit and enters the brotherhood of the Khalsa, then he is considered an amritdhari right?

There ar 4 Bujar Kurehits that a man can commit to get banned from the Khalsa. Eating Halal Meat, Adultary, Smoking tobacco and cutting his kesh.

now lets say that this man starts fights in the Gurdwara, he starts to steal and cheat others, he lies all the time, he beats up his wife and worships several gods, and stops his nitnem.

is he still considered a member of the Brotherhood? He has not broken any of the 4 bujar kurehits?

[shaheediyan]

In who's eyes; his, the sangats, rhe panths or the Guru's?

[Mekhane'ch Jannat]

I suggest that you convert to Islam, they have hard and fast rules. People who have no desire to progress onto higher dharams can follow these rules and lead a productive life.

Khalsa means "land of the emperor that cannot be taxed" In other words this land is free. Freedom from external pressures. A man who is Khalsa is free from external pressures, he is totally detached from the false world. PLeasure pain etc. In other words he is master of himself. If a Khalsa can control and knows every aspect of his being, how can he do wrong? Nobody does wrong consciously only unconsciously under the ignorance of anger or whatever. A Khalsa knows his anger his hate his love he is intimate with these parts of him and he is not subversient to them, he cannot be affected by any external pressures, the emperor cannot tax or extract anything from him because he is the master of himself

Now tell me would a khalsa do any of the things you have mentioned? Taking amrit and formally entering the brotherhood is a symbol, it is the lowest form of reality. This symbol aides a man to master himself and know god - know thyself etc.

I know this answer is not welcome as your question is obviously directed towards externality. But herein lies the problem Sikhi has very little to do with externalities. The Khalsa are an esoteric brotherhood, this is obvious from Gurbani, where all external rituals are internalised. External appearence and conduct is not of the highest importance to a khalsa all that is important is self-mastery or the journey towards god. Now the symbols of the Khalsa the panj kakkar etc are indispensible on this journey as they aide rememberance they are symbols of an inner state, or they must bring about an internal state. The internal state is its own dharam, on the journey towards God, you must do right otherwise you will fall by the wayside. Distance from god is its own punishment. A man who works on himself, is himself punished by himself for wrong actions. Following rules is only for people who do not work on themselves.

The look of the Khalsa is secondary, as said before it is only an aide to simran. Only in so much as, the marks of a khalsa help him remember his mission on Earth, are they at all worth having. Otherwise they serve no purpose

[amardeep]

excelent post mekhane, i agree with everything you are saying, but this is not the point im trying to make.

shaheediyan : According to the rehit of the Khalsa. if a person breaks any of the 4 bujar kurehits he is not a member of the Khalsa, but what if one steals, lies, beats up his wife, worships several gods, forgets his nitnem etc.. technically he is still a member of the khalsa as he has not breaken any of the 4 bans..

[shaheediyan]

My point was it depends on who is perceived to be making the judgement.

The Bujjar Kurehits are recognised by the panth as most serious sins - for which a Khalsa is answerable to the Panj Pyare/Panth. These rules served an important part in protecting the Khalsa in difficult times.

Where other paap is mentioned as above, the law of the land deals with this, the Khalsa "title" or more relevantly, continued acceptance in the sangat, depends on whether the sangat is aware of the individuals crimes, and the strength of the community spirit i.e. if they have the culture to call up an individual for their actions.

And most relevantly, as Mekhane'ch Jannat has mentioned, the whole essence and purpose of the Khalsa is internal search, internal improvement and self realisation. This is where one who is blessed lets Guru decide where one is Khalsa or not - through ones deeper understanding of bani and emancipation of conscience.

[amardeep]

i find it very od that a person can start to worship several Gods, statues, beat up his wife and commit other sins even in public, and still claim to be member of the Brotherhood because he technically has not violated any of the Bujar Kurehit.

he can commit all kinds of illegal actions, sins etc, and still me a member of the brotherhood of the Pure ones, the elected and chosen ones.

this kinda lowers the status and importance of this brotherhood, as it can have the most horrible members who can argue that they are still members of this brotherhood.

Khalsa mera roop hai khaas, I am manifested in the Khalsa.

i find this to be very od as the Khalsa brotherhood possibly can consist of thugs, murderes thieves and pimps.

[Kavita]

So... technically if you eat a kebab you're a manmukh but if you kill your father you can still be khalsa?

[kirpa_karo]

stealing is bajjar kurehat...

But anyways - i like the way people who like to look at grey areas in sikhi have now tired to use the black and white theory.

Bajjar Kurehats are bajjar kurehats - but if your bringing shame to the Khalsa Panth - you think Guru Ji will accept you?

Khalsa is his roop - and should act like it - thats a Hukam from Guru Gobind Singh Ji

[kirpa_karo]

atam ras jeh janei so hai KHALS dev

[Matheen]

Amardeep - if someone does the things you mention and doesn't stop, he/she wouldn't even be a Sikh (at least not of Guru Sahib)......look at the meaning of the word "Sikh" and you have your answer.

[shaheediyan]

Amardeep Ji, please read the last line of my post.

In life there are many titles, both divine and wordly, in truth, it matters only, that if a divine title is precious to us, then it is truely only our conscience that can decide if we live up to the said title.

There are many lies and fakes in the world, many people claim to be Singhs, Muslims, Hindus, Christians etc, but very few truely live up these titles as was intended by the founders of these movements.

Man is good at deception, the people you talk of fit into the category of Politicians (those who focus on wordly titles) and thus look for acceptance in the eyes of people (through deception) rather than in the eyes of God (honesty and conscience).

What is Khalsa for one man is not Khalsa for another - Dashmesh Pita resides in those rare diamonds that live the life of humility, charity/service, devotion, learning and bravery - and not the majority who follow trends and are more concerned about there particular puratan Sikh movement/leaders/Sants being more original and blessed than others.

Don't forget that there were fake Sikhs even during the times of the Guru's i.e. the Masands, so don't sound so worried that "fake" Khalse (as per 10th masters blessed use of the word rather) exist.

If this is a personal issue re someone in your community, then try talking to him, if that doesn't work, try talking to the the local sangat - and led 5 respected Sikh decide is they wish to summon the said person and help/caution//punish him, but that will depend if the person accepts the sangats decision. If not then the he will in effect automatically excommunicate himself from your local sangat.

[kirpa_karo]

shaheediyan kicks ass yet again (with prem and satikaar)

[chatanga]

Quotng Jannat...

External appearence and conduct is not of the highest importance to a khalsa all that is important is self-mastery or the journey towards god.

are you sure about that Jannat? External appearance is AS important as internal in my eyes. Bani came from Thur, so where did Bana come from ?

Bani Bana do pankh udave to quote Suraj Prakash, meaning that Bani and Bani are two wings of the bird. with one absent the other is pointless/useless.

Dosnt our behaviour in society fall under external apearance and conduct?

Now if someone duz what you say, it dont mena they can still be Khalsa. But mainly Guru Granth or Guru Panth should decied if one is or not. i know that amritdharis sometimes give a bad name with thier misdeeds to our religion ( and may Akal always protect me as well from doing this) but this post seems to be goign inn the direction of " if your mind is pure/clean then no bana /external appearance is necessary...

chatanga

[Kavita]

So... technically if you eat a kebab you're a manmukh but if you kill your father you can still be khalsa?

[Mehtab Singh]

The qualities of the Khalsa are explained very well in Khalsa mahima. The Khalsa is so dear to Gurujee, that He goes on to say "Khalsa meri jaan ki jaan". People have the habit of calling "meri jaan" to someone they love like their life, or maybe more than their life. But Gurujee's words are a step ahead. He calls Khalsa the life of His life. These are not hollow words of a mere human being. Gurujee proved them right by sacrificing EVERYTHING for His Khalsa.

May Dasmesh Pita bless us with the qualities of the Khalsa.

[Matheen]

So... technically if you eat a kebab you're a manmukh but if you kill your father you can still be khalsa?

What are you on about? Guru Ji describes the qualities of the Khalsa in some detail, just read what they say.

[Mystical]

You can also ask yourself something, does one become Khalsa just by drinking Amrit? Or does the definition of a Khalsa which Guru Ji gave go deeper?

[amardeep]

i'll try again:

If a man beats up his wife worships several gods, cheat, lies and steals, is he still a member of the brotherhood? Technically he has not violated any of the 4 Bujar kurehits so the answer must be yes haina?

or as kavita said.. if a man eat a kebab he is a manmukh, but if he kills his own wife he is still considered a member of the pure elite?

[chatanga]

its not only the four cardinal sins that gets one thrown out of this brotherhood. those are the four majors, there are plenty of minors as well. murdering would come under the rehit somewhere. your play with words is making a mockery of the rehit.

[shaheediyan]

Kavita Ji,

Please try and refrain from asking dichotomous questions, it is a trait of mischievous people.

To answer the unproductive question, if one eats a kebab whilst having taken amrit from Panj Pyare who instructed to refrain from meat, then one has obviously disobeyed their supreme father - what would you call someone who loses focus on the Guru?

If a Khalsa kills his father...

Is a Khalsa's father not Akaal Moorat?

If you are talking of wordly parents, then I am sure you must be familiar with the use Satguru has made of father and mother in bani - words used to describe that most pavitar and high relationship that it is put on par with ones relationship with Vaheguru.

So if one was to desicrate this relationship what kind of Sikh or Khalsa would that person be?

In any case, one wouldn't be much use as a Khalsa serving a life sentance in jail for murder, they would have voluntarily seperated themselves from those that you claim would or wouldn't categorise him.

[Xylitol]

To be Khalsa a person has to do a lot more than just take Amrit. In fact, to just be a Gursikh, a person has to do a lot more than take Amrit.

To answer your question, a person who does those debased things is probably not a Khalsa. It's very hard to truly be Khalsa. For us Sikhs, Amrit is just one of the steps on this path.

As has been stated above, there are other rules regarding conduct that cover the things you have prescribed. I suggest you look at rehitnamas and Gurbani for them. I believe the reason these 4 things are bujjar kurhaits is b/c it's just common sense to not do some of the wrong things you described; but many people don't have any idea of the spiritual devastation caused by, for eg. smoking. hence, the hard and fast rule.

In the end, it seems to me like the question you're asking is a corollary of another question that you may have in mind. please enlighten me if i'm wrong.

[Kavita]

Is an amritdhari Sikh who has murdered his father excluded from the Panth? If yes provide section in the rahit maryada to prove it. Thank you.

[Matheen]

Not everything needs to be written in black and white, Maharaj Ji gave us all common sense, conscience and the 5 Pyare, who can take individual cases and make a decision as the need arises.

The Bujjar Kurehits stop us from doing things that were prevalent in society and were not perceived as wrong by followers of other faiths, hence the need to write them down.

[chatanga]

These questions could go on and on for ever. There would be no limit to them. could a man who did such and such be part of this brotherhood...

Like Matheen said, common sense is the answer.

[shaheediyan]

"Is an amritdhari Sikh who has murdered his father excluded from the Panth?"

Yes, the Judge and Jury will see to that in nearly all countries in the world, excluded by means of a life sentance and seperation from the "panth".

You know very well Sikhi is not a "legal system" based faith, but one of introspective growth. If you wish to become a Sharia Panthi then I suggest you look into Judaism or Islam, as suggested by Mekhane'ch Jannat.

Kindly don't try and mock Sikhi, if you have an opinion you would like to express, just state it clearly.

Sikhi is so divine and above law, that even evil murderers who open their eyes can become blessed souls:

ਕਾਮਿ ਕਰੋਧਿ ਮੋਹਿ ਵਸਿ ਕੀਆ ਕਿਰਪਨ ਲੋਭਿ ਪਿਆਰੁ ॥

ਚਾਰੇ ਕਿਲਵਿਖ ਉਨਿ ਅਘ ਕੀਏ ਹੋਆ ਅਸੁਰ ਸੰਘਾਰੁ ॥

ਪੋਥੀ ਗੀਤ ਕਵਿਤ ਕਿਛੁ ਕਦੇ ਨ ਕਰਨਿ ਧਰਿਆ ॥

ਚਿਤਿ ਆਵੈ ਓਸੁ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਤਾ ਨਿਮਖ ਸਿਮਰਤ ਤਰਿਆ ॥੪॥

What you seek are answers to questions which God has already provided answers to for thousands of years. What our Guru's now offered were answers to the questions of a higher plane, of more grave concern:

ਦੂਜੈ ਭਾਇ ਆਤਮ ਸੰਘਾਰਹਿ ॥