Personal views on Kalki Avatar (No Discussions)

[das]

Everyone on this forum is requested to present your personal views on Kali Avatar. While posting please follow the following rules:

- Everyone should post their own personal views without thinking that what others will say or feel.

- Do NOT post questions and counter arguments. Every person should post ONLY ONCE, but editing same post is allowed if you missed something.

- Post your personal thoughts WITH the situations/things which made up that thinking.

[das]

I personally think that Guru Nanak Dev Ji is the Saviour of kalyug as described in Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

But at the same time I believe that the Kalki Avatar will also come to this earth AT THE END OF KALYUG (roughly after 427,000 years from now).......by that time definatly very few will follow any religion, even now we we think there is a BIG difference in this mind set as compared with the Sikhs during Guru Ji time......it is kalyug's effect.

Both Guru Nanak Dev Ji and Kalki Avatar has different motives and they are NOT comparable. We cannot say that Kalki Avatar cannot come or its past thing or Hindu agenda because Guru Nanak Dev is the saviour of kalyug. I am NOT saying that Kalki avatar will come because Guru Nanak Dev was not able to complete HIS motive. Guru Nanak Dev Ji opened the secret of achieving GOD/WAHEGURU AS PER kalyug's time and this secret is for everyone either good or bad. The secret is: Naam, Dan, Ishnan.

Any of our 10 Gurus have NOT killed persons at world level just because they were bad and not following religion. Killing of some bad persons is a different thing as compared to killing EVERY bad person. It is NOT that Guru Ji couldn't do it, it is just that it was NOT the hukam of GOD at that time.

But Kalki Avatar is supposed to kill EVERY bad person (at the end of kalyug). So, there is a difference between "Construction Engineer" and "Waste Disposal Engineer". Both are engineers but their jobs are different. Same way Avatars are coming under the hukam of WAHEGURU/GOD, but their motives are different at different times. In any case, I am not concerned if Kalki avatar is coming or not, it's just always curiosity about the future happenings either avatars, weather, personal lifes etc.

Points which made up my this thinking:

** Guru Nanak Dev Ji is the Saviour of kalyug as defined in "Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji".

** The timing of Kalki Avatar is explained in "Dasam Granth Sahib".

** In Sant Baba Isher Singh Ji's deewan it is mentioned that during the first 10,000 years of kalyug there will be great bhagti influence.

** In Sant Baba Isher Singh Ji's deewan it is mentioned that after 10,000 years of kalyug, all the devtas that are providing pavitarta to bad people (e.g Ganga, Yamuna etc. and other tiraths) will ran away from the earth. It means that tiraths are NOT the saviours of a person in kalyug. It is NAAM which can save us.

** Kalki Avatar is predicted in "Vishnu Purana".

** In suleman conversation with Sant Baba Isher Singh Ji (written transcript), Suleman referred to a ghost with age of 4 yugs and told that he will be liberated at the end of kalyug by either a Sant OR Kalki Avatar. Suleman told this when "Sant Baba Isher Singh Ji" asked him the question: "When the ghost with 4 yug age be freed from pret jooni"......secondly, here Sant Baba Isher Singh Ji has NOT asked this question to know its answer. He asked it so that we (normal people) can know of it. Always, Mahapurash/Sant gives only hints of secrets and future happening.

das

[Guest]

** In suleman tape, Suleman referred to a ghost with age of 4 yugs and told that he will be liberated at the end of kalyug by either a Sant OR Kalki Avatar. Suleman told this when "Sant Baba Isher Singh Ji" asked him the question: "When the ghost with 4 yug age be freed from pret jooni"......secondly, here Sant Baba Isher Singh Ji has NOT asked this question to know its answer. He asked it so that we (normal people) can know of it. Always, Mahapurash/Sant gives only hints of secrets and future happening.

I may seem counter arguing your comments but i cannot help responding to this misconception, person talking to suleman tape is not voice of sant isher singh ji rara sahib but sevadar of baba ji, in fact as per as my knowledge on this concerns, there are no audio recording of sant isher singh ji talking to suleman.

Unless off course you have 2nd tape of suleman which many of us are looking for to get ?

[das]

I forgot to mention that it is NOT the tape......my fault, sorry for this..... it is the WRITTEN TRANSCRIPT of the conversation of suleman with Sant Baba Isher Singh Ji......I understand that there is NO audio recorded for Baba Ji and suleman......I've edited the tape to transcript.....please have a look on the written published book of conversation between suleman and Sant Baba Isher Singh Ji.

You can also download it from:

http://www.rajkaregakhalsa.net/audio/index...f+Suleman+Ghost

[Ragmaala]

I have heard so many views from different people including chardikala gursikhs and through books , through the cross referencing with the apocalypses in jewish, zoroastrian literature that it is really hard to say anything.

My personal belief is that we should not worry about KALKI or NO KALKI.

Just focus on the path that Guru Nanak gave to us.

[Malwe Da Sher]

I reckon Raagmala's view is prob the correct path for a Gursikh.

I reckon Kalki Avtar will be an avtar like Baba Banda Singh Bahadur - can see similarities in the sense that both had seva of detroying tyranny and then succumb to their ego leading to their death. In panth parkash it often says that people in India thought that Baba Banda Singh Bahadur was infact Kalki Avtar.

[amardeep]

In prem sumarag it is written that its the Satguru, Guru Gobind Singh, who will come as the kalki avatar to destroy tyranny and bring satyug. Guru Gobind Singh will open the eyes of the masses and they will realise that He is the one they have all been waiting for thus uniting mankind under the banner of dharam

This is also what i belive in, Satyug representing the Khalsa Raj on duniya.

[Matheen]

Why 'personal views'?! Guru Ji has explained the whole thing in their own words, but we don't want to believe. The links to the relevant parts of Sri Dasam Granth have been posted many times.

Amardeep Ji, Kalki Avtar is a flawed character and NOT the final Avatar before Satjug. Saying that Kalki is Guru Ji is insulting to Guru Sahib.

[valli singh]

.

[shaheediyan]

That sounds mixed up. Maharaja Dalip Singh fits most of that description, but the rest of it is obviously wrong. Sounds like a modern concuction in my opinion.

[amardeep]

Matheen can you explain your thought regarding the coming of Kalki Avatar, Mir Mehdi and the return of the Satguru as mentioned in Prem Sumarag, Sau sakhi and Sainapats Gursobha (see http://www.sikhawareness.com/sikhawareness...ighlight=kalki)

[amardeep]

Is'nt Vishnu the avatar of Akal Purakh himself?

[harkamal]

Theres a mandir in town called sambhalpur in the Utter Pradesh India. Thats where kalki avtar will become pargat. Supposedly theres a HUUUGE lock outside teh mandir and its surrounded by a Muslim population.

[Silence]

I don't think we are meant to take the contents of Chaubis Avatar literally, Guru Sahib states quite clearly at the start it is a narration. In my humble opinion, chaubis avatar's purpose is for us to understand the so called story of the 24 avatars, due to there being a reference to quite a few events of these supposed avatars' lives within gurbani, and also an action against elitist brahmins and ofcourse to learn lessons of character. However, I do not feel that it everything written their is meant to be taken as exactly what we are supposed to believe. The story of 24 avatars is an old one, and Guru Maharaj has shared that story as it is, with some commentary. I think this commentary is of utmost importance, especially the beginning:

ਜੋ ਚਉਬੀਸ ਅਵਤਾਰ ਕਹਾਏ ॥

Jo chaubees avtaar kahaae||

Those who are called twenty-four incarnations;

ਤਿਨ ਭੀ ਤੁਮ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਤਨਕ ਨ ਪਾਏ ॥

Tin bhitum Prabh tanak na paae||

O Lord ! they even could not realise thee in a small measure;

ਸਭ ਹੀ ਜਗ ਭਰਮੇ ਭਵ ਰਾਯੰ ॥

Sabh hijag bharme bhav raayang||

They became kings of the world and got deluded;

ਤਾ ਤੇ ਨਾਮੁ ਬਿਅੰਤ ਕਹਾਯੰ ॥੭॥

Taa te naam(u) biant kahaayang||7||

Therefore they were called by innumerable names.

Chaubis Avatar should be read as what it is, the narration of a known, already told story, where are we to believe that this is our own belief? If I shared the story of Jesus' crucifiction, with part of that story stating that Jesus is the true Messiah, does this mean that I believe this personally and also that I am saying directly to you, or I am just narrating what others believe?

For this reason, I don't believe in the coming of any avtar. Guru Granth Sahib Ji is the past, present and future of all and the only saviour is Guru Maharaj and his sobha - the khalsa.

'Amardeep' ji, i know your post was not addressed to me, however if I can humbly comment, take it if you want but historical sources should only be relied on so much. They have a tendency to get adultered-especially sikh ones, and many wrote with agendas in the first place. Whats important is to test them against gurbani, but thats up to you.

and in regards to vishnu, heres something from bachitar natak sahib ji:

(Sri Akal Purakh Sahib Ji Maharaj speaking to dhan dhan Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj/ Dusht Daman Sahib Ji Maharaj)

I destroyed them(daityas) in no time and created gods in their place.

They were also absorbed in the worship of power and called themselves Ominipotednt.7.

Mahadeo (Shiva) was called Achyuta (blotless), Vishnu considered himself the Supreme.

Brahma called himself Para Brahman, none could comprehend the Lord.8.

Vaheguroo Sahib has no avatar, he is Nirgun Vaheguroo, and Sargun form is Guru Form of Shabad, and finally Guru's form also can be said to be in his true Sikh.

bhull chuk maafee

[big5abi]

The Kalki avtar is Raja Dileep Singh from the sun dynasty and great grandfather of the saviour of treta, Ram Chander and father of Bhagirath. Dileep Singh was the only one to complete 100 Ashvamedh yugs, other than Inder. His life was one of valor and sacrifice. He had protected the celestial cow, Nandini and offered himself as food to a tiger which was materialized by Nandini to test the King. He had later given up his kingdom situated at Hastinapur (Delhi) and had retired to a forest, where he had spent the last years of his life immersed in simran. He had then ascended to the mountain of Mandrachal where he still remains in samadhi awaiting the time for his descent to Mrityu Lok, towards the end of Kaliyuga, to rid it of its pain and suffering. This is true as a lot of Maha Shaktis such as Sant Darbara Singh (Lopon) and Sant Isher Singh (Kaleran) have also confirmed this.

He will be a Vishnu Avtar, who is the preserver, protector and master of the three worlds. He is free of anguish and absolutley immaculate.

Sri Guru Arjun Dev Ji Has spoken about Vishnu In his Bani on ang1082:

O Creator, You assumed the form of Bavan to defeat the Demons, You are the Lord of all.

You are Sri Raam Chander, whom has no shape or form.

Adorned with garlands, holding the divine discus, You're beautiful and incomparable

Emancipator, the enticer of hearts, Lord of Laxmi

By the Pleasure of His Will, He took incarnation as the great fish and the tortoise.

He has staged His play; He is called the four-armed Lord.

He carries the conch, the chakra and the war club; He is the Great Charioteer, who stays with His Saints.

He alone unites with Him, whom He unites with Himself. No one can attain the Lord by himself.

He Himself is the milk-maid, and He Himself is Krishna.

Which of Your Glorious Virtues can I chant with my one tongue?

Note: only a selection of lines from ang 1082-83

Parmatma sends his radiant sons, or his forms to dispel the agonies of the world. He himself is rid of maya and matter. Just like Guru Nanak said He will come in the form of 72 Nitt avatars. They will be his form but not literally Him.

[Matheen]

Valli Singh and big5abi, please read Guru Sahib's own description of Kalki Avtar in Sri Dasam Granth. He will definitely not be 'perfectly immaculate'.

Amardeep, where Guru Sahib has written something in their own words, then if historical books written by others say something else, we should go with what Guru Ji has written.

It's only a few pages long.....

[amardeep]

i know of the section of Kalki Avatar in Dasam Granth but i am talking about the three outher sources mentioning the return of the Satguru.

[amardeep]

Its interesting that Maharaj mentions that all of the various devtas and avatars could not reach the limits of Akal Purakh and they fell prey to their ego, yet in the commentaries within the text itself there are various praises of the same avatars. Look for instance in Krishna Avatara:

Page 721, Line 6

Krishna, the son of Nand, is the giver of comfort to all, enemy of Indra, and master of true intellect; the face of the Lord, who is perfect in all arts, ever gives its mild light like the moon; the poet Shyam says that the sage Narada also remembers him, who is the destroyer of the sorrow and anguish of the saints;

Page 723, Line 12

All repeat His Name; the poet Shyam says, that the Lord (Krishna) is the gretest of all; he, who saw him slightly with his mind, he was assuredly allured by his power and beauty in an instant.381.

In the same text we hear about the incident at the river where Krishna steals the clothes of the gopis and watch their naked bodies etc.. So i dont think that chaubis avatar is to be read litteraly, especially the kalki avataar text.. Why would God send a sinful man to establish Satyug? How will a man who is not perfect himself create a perfect world?

see what Bahadur ali wrote on hanuman earlier today

[big5abi]

Matheen you are mistaken, I said Vishnu is immaculate, as Guru Ji states in the Guru Granth Sahib.

Valli Singh said kalki will not be infalliable. Which means not perfect.

I suggest you thoroughly read through posts before replying.

[Matheen]

Guru Sahib hasn't gone anywhere. That particular saroop passed on the Gaddi to Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. How will the Gaddi be passed on? Further, nowhere in Guru Ji's writings do they imply a return in physical form. If anything, they warn us to beware of anyone who calls himself the Guru. :-)

big5abi: but you wrote 'he will be an incarnation of Vishnu'. If Vishnu is immaculate, then how can his incarnation not be? Anyway, just read the relevant sections of Sri Dasam Granth, or listen to katha of Chaubis Avtar.

[amardeep]

Maharaj passed it on to Guru Panth and Guru Granth.. Maybe the panth will pass it on?

[big5abi]

Vishnu is immaculate compared to us and the demi-gods but he is still in maya and is subject to dissolution. All the names like Vishnu and Raam are sometimes used as synonyms for Akaal. Guru Arjan Dev Maharaj praises vishnu and his avtars and calls them saviours.

[gsingh00]

yet in the commentaries within the text itself there are various praises of the same avatars. Look for instance in Krishna Avatara:

Page 721, Line 6

Krishna, the son of Nand, is the giver of comfort to all, enemy of Indra, and master of true intellect; the face of the Lord, who is perfect in all arts, ever gives its mild light like the moon; the poet Shyam says that the sage Narada also remembers him, who is the destroyer of the sorrow and anguish of the saints;

Page 723, Line 12

All repeat His Name; the poet Shyam says, that the Lord (Krishna) is the gretest of all; he, who saw him slightly with his mind, he was assuredly allured by his power and beauty in an instant.381.

krishan avtar katha is a translation meant to give birras.

dasam katha bhagout kee bhakha karee banae. avar vasna nahi prabh, dharam judh kai chai.

bhakha means to put put into the language of the land, or normal people, hence krishan avtar is a translation and its clear that guru sahib meant it to be used for birras. Why would guru gobind singh ji praise krishan ji as being perfect when guru sahib also says "kaisae tohi taar hai sun jarh, aap dubiyo bhaav sagar." in reference to krishan ji in shabad hazare. Lets not misconstrue guru sahibs bani to fit our own beliefs.

in response to whether guru sahib will return as kalki avtar, baba avtar singh badni kalan vale, nephew of baba gurbachan singh and vidyarthee of baba mohan singh, did good katha on the topic of kalki avtar and the relation to guru sahib, it is on gurmatveechar.com

[amardeep]

cool can you find me the link?

You are right that Guru Maharaj did a complete translation of Bhagavad Purana but he also gave his own coments within the text and these are the ones that i reffered to above.. those lines are not to be found in the original text, those lines are from maharaj

[gsingh00]

http://www.gurmatveechar.org/audio/katha/k...lki_Avtar_Katha