JustME Posted January 12, 2009 Report Share Posted January 12, 2009 Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh I tried to ask this question on Sikhsangat and before i had even managed to read the reply the thread had been deleted so i thought i would try here............ I dumb and dont know much but..........if Guru Gobind Ji created Khalsa to unite people no matter where they came from....................when and why did sampardeh come into exisitance? why arent we simply The Khalsa Panth. ? Plz no arguments or debates.......... Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh!! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SURYADEV Posted January 12, 2009 Report Share Posted January 12, 2009 I tried to ask this question on Sikhsangat and before i had even managed to read the reply the thread had been deleted so i thought i would try here............ I suppose the SS.com guys found your question toooo challenging for their narrow way of thinking. Well, youve come to right place to ask sensible questions as such. Plz no arguments or debates.......... Ah , SA.com thrives on debates and to some extent arguments, hence the reason it probs the most enlightened forum on the net. Enjoy your stay here and learn what real Sikhi is about. Anyways, back to your question......i'll leave it to the educated members to answer it. Fateh 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaheediyan Posted January 12, 2009 Report Share Posted January 12, 2009 Whether or not Sampradai were created by 10th Master is debatable. But what is clearly evidenced fact is that there were Singhs and 'Sikhs' in Guru's darbar were dedicated to performing varying roles i.e. Kavi, Langar Seva, Experts in varying languages, experts in varying religions/philosophies, soldiers, body guards, mahants, dhadis, rababis, medicine men etc etc. I simply see the sampraday as a natural organised progression/evolution of the diversity that existed in the 'fluid' and all encompassing court of the Guru. When a senior/respected member of a household departs (who used to hold his house in order and family together), the youngsters, holding onto varying memories of their father, and a mutual respect, eventually go there own way. Its the natural order of things. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 12, 2009 Report Share Posted January 12, 2009 I failed to understand how samparda's disunite people from Khalsa Panth Unity. Just think about this from diversity angle. Once this respected bhai sahib ji told me that think of samparda's as garden (bagicha) started by sri guru gobind singh ji. In that garden, there are many type of flowers, arose from the seed of love(Khalsa Panth) planted by sri guru gobind singh ji himself. Think about this from angle shabad by sri guru gobind singh ji in Sri Akaal Ustat: Jaisae Ek Aag Taie Knuooka Kout Aaag Otaie Nayare Nayare Hoike Pher Aaag mein milahengaie || Aag is same but each praticle in that fire is unique(nayara) despite of that source is one aag mein milahengaie. Jaise ek Dhoor taie Aneek Dhoor Poorat Hai Dhoor Kaie Knuooka Pher Dhoor Hi Samahengaie || Just like how each dust praticle merges in the same dhoor. Jaise Ek Nad Tai Tarang Kuot Upjat Hai Paan Kaie Tarang, Sabhai Paan Hi Kehangaie || Nadi is one but tarangs are unique but they go back to the same nadi Taisaie Basaiv Roop Tai Abhoot Bhot Pargat Hoi Tahi Tai Upaj Sabhai Tahi mein Samahengaie || Abhoot- tats(elements) this body is made of, is all same in all but bhot(body structure) is all same and upon this bhot merges back into same tat. http://www.gurmarag.net/SikhAwareness/Vide...ag%20shabad.avi I know above shabad is more towards gyan of atma but this could be applied in parallel towards sampardavas as well. After all various samparda's in panth or even various dharam in the world teaches you gyan of nirgun parbhram via different types of karam and upasana but at the end gyan of all is same. going back to the samparda's- upasana of nihang singhs of doing das granthi patt with their surti, and taksali doing 108 mool mantar or 108 japji sahib patt with surti or singhs from harkhowale/rara sahib doing naam simran via their surti , upasana may be different but gyan/aim is all one- gyan of sargun/nirgun parbhram.. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amardeep Posted January 12, 2009 Report Share Posted January 12, 2009 Aasaa, Fifth Mehl: There is a garden, in which so many plants have grown. They bear the Ambrosial Nectar of the Naam as their fruit. ||1|| Consider this, O wise one, by which you may attain the state of Nirvaanaa. All around this garden are pools of poison, but within it is the Ambrosial Nectar, O Siblings of Destiny. There is only one gardener who tends it. He takes care of every leaf and branch. ||2|| He brings all sorts of plants and plants them there. They all bear fruit - none is without fruit. ||3|| One who receives the Ambrosial Fruit of the Naam from the Guru - O Nanak, such a servant crosses over the ocean of Maya. ||4||5||56|| 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 12, 2009 Report Share Posted January 12, 2009 vah ji vah amardeep bhaaji, amazing quote from gurbani to explain the beauty of diversity. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
valli singh Posted January 12, 2009 Report Share Posted January 12, 2009 , 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SURYADEV Posted January 12, 2009 Report Share Posted January 12, 2009 Aasaa, Fifth Mehl: There is a garden, in which so many plants have grown. They bear the Ambrosial Nectar of the Naam as their fruit. ||1|| Consider this, O wise one, by which you may attain the state of Nirvaanaa. All around this garden are pools of poison, but within it is the Ambrosial Nectar, O Siblings of Destiny. There is only one gardener who tends it. He takes care of every leaf and branch. ||2|| He brings all sorts of plants and plants them there. They all bear fruit - none is without fruit. ||3|| One who receives the Ambrosial Fruit of the Naam from the Guru - O Nanak, such a servant crosses over the ocean of Maya. ||4||5||56|| Cheers for that quote. How would you reference it? As in , if i wanted to actually check it out in the SGGS. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
valli singh Posted January 12, 2009 Report Share Posted January 12, 2009 , 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SURYADEV Posted January 12, 2009 Report Share Posted January 12, 2009 and Taksalis (grammarians). I thought they were part of the Nirmalas? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amardeep Posted January 12, 2009 Report Share Posted January 12, 2009 its ang 385, Line 5 http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.g...id=17640#l17640 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
valli singh Posted January 12, 2009 Report Share Posted January 12, 2009 , 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mithar Posted January 13, 2009 Report Share Posted January 13, 2009 I think that whenever the Panth deviates away from the Path of Gurmat, Guru Jee sends Singhs to bring them back to Gurmat. The puraatan and original Nirankari movement was one such movement, Baba Bir Singh Naurangabadi was also such a Singh. After him Baba Ram Singh Namdhari was also one who brought back many old Maryadhas. Singhs like Baba Karam Singh Hotimardhan, Sant Attar Singh Mastuanaywalay, Baba Nand Singh Jee, Bhai Sahib Randhir Singh Jee, all the DDT Mahpursh especially Sant Jarnail Singh Jee. I beleive that such Singhs are sent time and time again to bring us closer to Sikhi at a time when we seem to deviate away from the path of Gurmat. Right now the Panth again seems to be going away from the path. The Sampradhas these Singhs have started bring us closer to to Sikhi. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustME Posted January 13, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 13, 2009 Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh I suppose the SS.com guys found your question toooo challenging for their narrow way of thinking. Well, youve come to right place to ask sensible questions as such. lol......thanks Ah , SA.com thrives on debates and to some extent arguments, hence the reason it probs the most enlightened forum on the net. Enjoy your stay here and learn what real Sikhi is about. I must say i find myself impressed with not finding the common "This is what i believe, SO must u all" trend that happens on most forums Thanks for the replays..........i guess my initial ideas of what sampardehs were was flawed so but asking the questions i had already formed factless arguments that made me think of them as being somthing separate......All is beginning to look nice and bright again..... Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morghe Sahar Posted January 13, 2009 Report Share Posted January 13, 2009 Any form of organized religion has always got one or more specialized bodies within it dedicated to specific tasks. To ask why there are Udasis, Nirmalas, Nihangs and Sevapanthis in the Sikh community is as foolish as to ask why a given society needs medics, maywers and cops. The very question actually translates nothing but deep insecurity regarding identity as if specialized bodies threatened the identity of the whole community. It also shows a complete lack of theological understanding ie. the fact that the community is identified by its doctrines rather than its visual appearance. But this is a question you as a community need to deal with yourselves. As for the authenticity of the lineages, it is clear that there is a continuity on terms of lineage BUT also a reformulation of these groups' self-definition depending on the period. So historical in and of itself needs to be divorced from the narratives that these groups give to explain their origin. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chatanga1 Posted January 13, 2009 Report Share Posted January 13, 2009 quote justme : "I dumb and dont know much but..." It should be I'm dumb. qouting shaheediyan : "When a senior/respected member of a household departs (who used to hold his house in order and family together), the youngsters, holding onto varying memories of their father, and a mutual respect, eventually go there own way. Its the natural order of things. " should read go THEIR own way. quote MS : "To ask why there are Udasis, Nirmalas, Nihangs and Sevapanthis in the Sikh community is as foolish as to ask why a given society needs medics, maywers and cops. " should read LAWYERS .... other than that, very interesting and informative replies! Khima, chatanga 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaheediyan Posted January 13, 2009 Report Share Posted January 13, 2009 MLOL, thanks for your services Grammarian Sahib. I look forward to more of the same. ps "qouting shaheediyan :" Should read 'quoting Shaheediyan'. Ta. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SURYADEV Posted January 13, 2009 Report Share Posted January 13, 2009 At least its not 'txtspek' 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akalisodhi Posted January 13, 2009 Report Share Posted January 13, 2009 LOL....ROFL....LMAO....LMAOROFL......ROFLCOPTER 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyhp32 Posted January 14, 2009 Report Share Posted January 14, 2009 Any form of organized religion has always got one or more specialized bodies within it dedicated to specific tasks. To ask why there are Udasis, Nirmalas, Nihangs and Sevapanthis in the Sikh community is as foolish as to ask why a given society needs medics, maywers and cops. The very question actually translates nothing but deep insecurity regarding identity as if specialized bodies threatened the identity of the whole community. It also shows a complete lack of theological understanding ie. the fact that the community is identified by its doctrines rather than its visual appearance. But this is a question you as a community need to deal with yourselves. As for the authenticity of the lineages, it is clear that there is a continuity on terms of lineage BUT also a reformulation of these groups' self-definition depending on the period. So historical in and of itself needs to be divorced from the narratives that these groups give to explain their origin. Of course all that goes out of the window if the founder of the religion specifies visual appearance as an identifying marker for that community! Also your comment regarding doctrines as an way of identification of membership of a community does not make sense because not all these sampardhas share the same doctrines. I would be interested to know how your comment then applies to Islam. Are Sunnis not Muslims as much as Shia Muslims since they then do not share some of the same doctrines. Are sunnis a sampardha or are they not members of the Muslim 'community'? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morghe Sahar Posted January 15, 2009 Report Share Posted January 15, 2009 Tonyhp32 wrote: "Of course all that goes out of the window if the founder of the religion specifies visual appearance as an identifying marker for that community! Also your comment regarding doctrines as an way of identification of membership of a community does not make sense because not all these sampardhas share the same doctrines. I would be interested to know how your comment then applies to Islam. Are Sunnis not Muslims as much as Shia Muslims since they then do not share some of the same doctrines. Are sunnis a sampardha or are they not members of the Muslim 'community'?" 1. Visual appearance has been fixed for the Khalsa Sikhs and them only. 2. On your point about doctrines could you give an example of diverging theologies? I am talking here are about theology not liturgy. 3. The issue of Sunnism and Shi'ism is a different matter because we are dealing with schismatic movements. So my comments only apply within each of them although Sunnism doesn't really have a proper body of scholars and that most of it's preachers are actually self-proclaimed, a little bit like Neo-Sikhs. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustME Posted January 15, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 15, 2009 Also your comment regarding doctrines as an way of identification of membership of a community does not make sense because not all these sampardhas share the same doctrines. That was probably the basis of my question.........i think i make a fair argument that sampardas........while when in their infancy.................were a piece to the whole sikhi jigsaw...................and all same the common vision of equality.......love..........and making Waheguru the prime focus of ones jeevan........with each sampardas having its own "speciality"...if that is the correct term............but its that realy WHAT samardeh are doing now?...........can we honestly same that they are practising what they were intended to preach? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morghe Sahar Posted January 15, 2009 Report Share Posted January 15, 2009 Give me an example of theological difference between the four sampradayas or otherwise stop debating the issue. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustME Posted January 15, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 15, 2009 i wasnt aware i was debating anything........i made and suggestion and i posed the question in regards to the suggestion.............as my knowledge is limited on this subject..........i wish i could provide theological differences................but i know of none..........all i have is a doubt......which i would like to clear up............and im still asking my question which is yet to be awsered............ WHAT sampardeh are doing now?...........can we honestly same that they are practising what they were intended to preach? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morghe Sahar Posted January 15, 2009 Report Share Posted January 15, 2009 That is a question you ought to ask the sampradayas themselves. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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