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Sacrifice At Hazur Sahib – Myth & Truth


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http://www.worldsikhnews.com/21%20January%...mp;%20Truth.htm

Sacrifice at Hazur Sahib – Myth & Truth

Nanak Singh Nishter

A veteran Deccani Sikh himself, the author presents the facts of the honour of weapons at Hazur Sahib and calls for caution in its condemnation. He clears the air over the vegetarian-non-vegetarian debate amongst Sikhs and seeks effective steps to rid Sikh society of unethical and unSikh practices wherever they are practiced.

World Sikh News presents these facts, not to foment the debate, but to help build a hypothesis for solution to this never-ending debate for the benefit of a wider cross-section of the Sikh people.

The Internet has provided a forum for free speech which is being abused by all and sundry to project their views with the finality of an intellectual whose research cannot be wrong. All writers, young and old, write in the superlative degree, presenting their views as “the only correct view”, “the best book”, “the worst case” and the like. Human fallibility has become non-existent.

After the Tercentenary celebrations at Hazur Sahib, on the internet and in print magazines, it has become fashionable for Sikh intelligentsia to indulge in a superlative discussion about, "Goat Sacrifice at Hazur Sahib."

I have been following this debate for a long time and I have observed that most of the debate is frivolous and those who do spend time on this subject do so without understanding the details of the phenomenon.

Beyond all reasonable doubt let me authoritatively say and explain how this myth is a half-truth and more injurious than the lie.

As a student of Gurmat, I am fully aware of the facts and practices of the Sikhs particularly of this region, who are called "Deccani Sikhs". Since the last four generations, I have lived in this region and therefore I am also one of them.

What is the act of sacrifice? It is a religious ritual of killing (an animal or person) in order to propitiate a deity. This is strictly forbidden in Sikhism. The lives of the Ten Gurus and the teachings of Guru Granth Sahib have several crystal clear explanations.

The shabads of Guru Granth Sahib are misquoted, misused and misinterpreted to propagate vegetarianism among the Sikhs by some intellectuals and by vested interests, particular those running deras.

It is not fair to presume that Jhatka of goat is a sacrificial act at Hazur Sahib and other Unit Gurdwaras of the Deccani Sikhs. Since thousands of years, it is a custom of warriors of India to put the Tilak of blood to their weaponry on the occasion of Dashara and Holi. In these Gurdwaras, the tilak of blood is put to the weapons, not to Guru Granth Sahib or any other idol or photograph.

Even innocent Sikh preachers toe the line, as either they are ignorant or they too want to appease the vested interests or they think vegetarianism will make them popular.

Sikhs living in and around Hazur Sahib of the erstwhile Hyderabad State are the decedents who took Amrit in presence of Guru Gobind Singh Ji in the year 1708. Around 1830, the Sikh Army of Maharaja Ranjit Singh came to help the Nizam, who was the ruler of Hyderabad. This army was retained here as a Sikh Peace keeping Force, which had 14 Risalas (units) at all district headquarters with its Unit Gurdwaras. They held the then prevailing practices and rituals of the Sikhs of that period as a disciplined Armed Force.

It is not fair to presume that Jhatka of goat is a sacrificial act at Hazur Sahib and other Unit Gurdwaras of the Deccani Sikhs. Since thousands of years, it is a custom of warriors of India to put the Tilak of blood to their weaponry on the occasion of Dashara and Holi. In these Gurdwaras, the tilak of blood is put to the weapons, not to Guru Granth Sahib or any other idol or photograph. Though it is not in consonance with Sikh philosophy, like many other practices that have crept into the Sikh way of life, this too requires sane intervention so that it can be stopped. Mere condemnation ad nauseam will not help stopping it.

It is important that we see things objectively and rationally. From the point of view of Sikh image and Sikh practice, this has to be stopped, but this should be bracketed with many other practices and rituals which require serious steps. But there are so many rituals and festivals of other religions which are Celebration of the New Year of the Christian Era, Sammat new month –Sangrand and Full moon day –Pooranmashi. Are these all not anti-Sikh practices?

Guru Nanak Sahib in shabad number25 on pages 1289-90 has explained how the fools quarrel over vegetarianism and meat-eating. In 35 thirty five verses starting with "Pehla masaho nimiya maasai ander vas". "pihlW mwshu inMimAw mwsY AMdir vwsu", saying that, "First, the mortal is conceived in the flesh, and then he dwells in the flesh". Gurbani repeatedly reiterates that God is equally abiding in His Creation including food grains, water, vegetation, animal and human bodies. Gurbani strictly condemns sacrifices of animals for pleasing deities and offerings of eatables in fire for performing Havan, Yagyan, Lohri and other such festivities.

On page number 1275 of Guru Granth Sahib, Guru Nanak Sahib has further explained the law of nature that, “Ek ji, kai jiyaan khahi ”, “eyk jIA , kY jIAw KwhI” means “One life eats several lives”.

On page number 955, Guru Angad Sahib Ji further clarifies saying that, “Jiya ka ahar ji, khana yeho karey ”, “jIAw kw Ahwr jIA Kwxw eyhu kryie]”, meaning “God has made the creatures’ food for other creatures.”

There is enough historical evidence that in the in the langar of Guru Nanak Sahib and Guru Gobind Singh, meat was cooked and served. As the sentiments of non-meat eaters were hurt, it was subsequently stopped. Thus, Guru Ka Langar has gone purely vegetarian and should be accepted and venerated by one and all.

Since thousands of years, Jhatka is an Indian tradition of killing any animal with one stroke. In Assam, Rajasthan and some other north Indian regions, it is still prevailing. Halal meat is actually Zubah meat (half cut throat) which is halal (permitted) for the Muslims. This tradition is borrowed by them from Jewish religion's "Kosher meat". This sort of meat is specifically declared harram (forbidden-sinful) for the Sikhs in Sikh Rehat Maryada. The diktat to eat Jhatka meat was a revolt against the established custom of the time and also a step of rebellion against Muslim tyranny.

Those who advocate vegetarianism among Sikhs is deliberately overlooking the provisions of Sikh Rehat Maryada, which clearly prohibits consuming Kuththa (halal meat) and does not in any manner prevent Sikhs from being non-vegetarians. It is the discretion and liberty of Amritdharis to consume meat, if they choose to do so. Also, any Sikh, who chooses to be vegetarian, is welcome to remain so, but it is foolhardy, naïve and wrong to attempt to amend the Sikh religious ethos according to this choice.

Nanak Singh “Nishter” is a Hyderabad-based orator, writer and Urdu poet. He is a regular columnist of World Sikh News. He is an activist-academician making immense contribution to the social and cultural welfare of Sikh society. He is director of International Sikh Centre for Interfaith Relations. He may be contacted at nanaknishter@gmail.com

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Fateh!

Maybe I am being dense, but I'm not sure what the author is saying.

He mentions that jhatka is an ancient Indian warrior tradition, that the jhatka practised at Hazur Sahib is not a form of animal sacrifice, that there is evidence for meat being served in langar in the time of the Gurus, that there is no evidence for a ban on eating meat (except halal meat) - and yet he believes that jhatka should be stopped. Why?

K.

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Fateh!

Maybe I am being dense, but I'm not sure what the author is saying.

He mentions that jhatka is an ancient Indian warrior tradition, that the jhatka practised at Hazur Sahib is not a form of animal sacrifice, that there is evidence for meat being served in langar in the time of the Gurus, that there is no evidence for a ban on eating meat (except halal meat) - and yet he believes that jhatka should be stopped. Why?

K.

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Fateh!

Maybe I am being dense, but I'm not sure what the author is saying.

He mentions that jhatka is an ancient Indian warrior tradition, that the jhatka practised at Hazur Sahib is not a form of animal sacrifice, that there is evidence for meat being served in langar in the time of the Gurus, that there is no evidence for a ban on eating meat (except halal meat) - and yet he believes that jhatka should be stopped. Why?

K.

OK.

The Guru's were from Kshatriya/Khatri lineage. The tradition of Jhatka would not have been alien to their lineage.

Jhatka has been used in India for thousands of years for:

1) Just killing and animal for food

2) Demonstrate a warriors prowess with a sword (similar to what Samurai's would do)

3) Kill an animal for sacrifice (Bali)

Jhatka would be used in all 3 areas, but for a Sikh an animal killed in sacrifice is not permissible. Forms of sacrifice are Halaal, Bali, Kosher (collectively known as Kuttha and mistakenly just thought of as Halaal). The aim of these sacrifices is to ennoble the flesh. The Sikh Guru's took an enlightened view on this and stated, how can mere men ennoble or purify further something created by God? The same would apply to even vegetarian food which is sometimes purified in various ceremony's. The Guru's would laugh at such folly.

Now going back to the author:

Those who advocate vegetarianism among Sikhs is deliberately overlooking the provisions of Sikh Rehat Maryada, which clearly prohibits consuming Kuththa (halal meat) and does not in any manner prevent Sikhs from being non-vegetarians. It is the discretion and liberty of Amritdharis to consume meat, if they choose to do so. Also, any Sikh, who chooses to be vegetarian, is welcome to remain so, but it is foolhardy, naïve and wrong to attempt to amend the Sikh religious ethos according to this choice.

He is not saying Jhatka should be banned, but rather saying this is Jhatka and is NOT sacrifice (Bali).

As the Following book state:

We must give the rationale behind prescribing jhatka meat as the approved food for the Sikhs. According to the ancient Aryan Hindu tradition, only such meat as is obtained from an animal which is killed with one stroke of the weapon causing instantaneous death is fit for human consumption. However, with the coming of Islam into India and the Muslim political hegemony, it became a state policy not to permit slaughter of animals for food, in any other manner, except as laid down in the Quran - the kosher meat prepared by slowly severing the main blood artery of the throat of the animal while reciting verses from the Quran. It is done to make slaughter a sacrifice to God and to expiate the sins of the slaughter. Guru Gobind Singh took a rather serious view of this aspect of the whole matter. He, therefore, while permitting flesh to be taken as food repudiated the whole theory of this expiatory sacrifice and the right of ruling Muslims to impose iton the non-Muslims. Accordingly, he made jhatka meat obligatory for those Sikhs who may be interested in taking meat as a part of their food.

Sikhism, A Complete Introduction, Dr. H.S.Singha & Satwant Kaur, Hemkunt Press

and also

And one semitic practice clearly rejected in the Sikh code of conduct is eating flesh of an animal cooked in ritualistic manner; this would mean kosher and halal meat. The reason again does not lie in religious tenet but in the view that killing an animal with a prayer is not going to enoble the flesh. No ritual, whoever conducts it, is going to do any good either to the animal or to the diner. Let man do what he must to assuage his hunger. If what he gets, he puts to good use and shares with the needy, then it is well used and well spent, otherwise not.

Sikhs and Sikhism, Dr. I.J.Singh, Manohar Publishers.

When I went to India two years ago, I asked various people these very questions and the answers that came back were very clear. Sikh's do not sacrifice/purify in the name of God. Whener, a Sikh has food he (veg or non-veg) he gives thanks to God. A subtle but VERY important point.

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Randip Singh,

This is the part of the essay to which I was referring:

It is not fair to presume that Jhatka of goat is a sacrificial act at Hazur Sahib and other Unit Gurdwaras of the Deccani Sikhs. Since thousands of years, it is a custom of warriors of India to put the Tilak of blood to their weaponry on the occasion of Dashara and Holi. In these Gurdwaras, the tilak of blood is put to the weapons, not to Guru Granth Sahib or any other idol or photograph. Though it is not in consonance with Sikh philosophy, like many other practices that have crept into the Sikh way of life, this too requires sane intervention so that it can be stopped. Mere condemnation ad nauseam will not help stopping it.

It is important that we see things objectively and rationally. From the point of view of Sikh image and Sikh practice, this has to be stopped, but this should be bracketed with many other practices and rituals which require serious steps. But there are so many rituals and festivals of other religions which are Celebration of the New Year of the Christian Era, Sammat new month –Sangrand and Full moon day –Pooranmashi. Are these all not anti-Sikh practices?

I've read the essay again with a little more care and I believe what the author is saying (in the first paragraph) is that the practice of shastar-tilak is what the he wants stopped, not the tradition of jhatka, as I had originally thought. The annointing of weapons with blood may have been a traditional Kshtatriya practice but the author believes that this may be an anti-Sikh practice.

The ambiguity is in the second paragraph where he compares this ritual to the celebration by Sikhs of traditionally auspicious occasions like Sangrand and Puranmashi. The message in this paragraph seems to be that if khoon da tilak is abandoned as a tradition, then so should these festivals. Given that there seems to be little controversy regarding celebrating sangraand and puranmashi (there are usually special programmes in many gurdwaras on these these dates), I'm not sure whether the author seriously believes that all of these things are wrong, or whether he is suggesting the acceptance of khoon da tilak as a tradition much like sangraand and puranmashi.

Regards,

K.

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The tradition of Chatka has institutionally only been kept alive by the Nihang Singhs and the Sikhs of Hazoor Sahib, its best to ask them what the purpose of the tradition is and hearing what they have to say. Its much more informative and an accurate reflection of why something happens as opposed to random people writing articles on what the Sikh Gurus apparently did and didnt teach. Akaaal

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Randip Singh,

This is the part of the essay to which I was referring:

I've read the essay again with a little more care and I believe what the author is saying (in the first paragraph) is that the practice of shastar-tilak is what the he wants stopped, not the tradition of jhatka, as I had originally thought. The annointing of weapons with blood may have been a traditional Kshtatriya practice but the author believes that this may be an anti-Sikh practice.

The ambiguity is in the second paragraph where he compares this ritual to the celebration by Sikhs of traditionally auspicious occasions like Sangrand and Puranmashi. The message in this paragraph seems to be that if khoon da tilak is abandoned as a tradition, then so should these festivals. Given that there seems to be little controversy regarding celebrating sangraand and puranmashi (there are usually special programmes in many gurdwaras on these these dates), I'm not sure whether the author seriously believes that all of these things are wrong, or whether he is suggesting the acceptance of khoon da tilak as a tradition much like sangraand and puranmashi.

Regards,

K.

Yes precisely.

No to Sacrifice

Yes to Jhatka

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The tradition of Chatka has institutionally only been kept alive by the Nihang Singhs and the Sikhs of Hazoor Sahib, its best to ask them what the purpose of the tradition is and hearing what they have to say. Its much more informative and an accurate reflection of why something happens as opposed to random people writing articles on what the Sikh Gurus apparently did and didnt teach. Akaaal

The interesting thing about Hazoori Sikhs is that they have been unblemished by the inroads Vaishavism and Dera Culture have made into Punjabi Sikhism. Hazoori's are descended from the original Sikhs who accompanied the 10th Master some 300 Years ago to the Deccan. They have carried on traditions unblemished since that time.

I know that Punjabi Sikhs have been blemished, because my own family who are a long lineage of Amritdhari Sikhs, describe how in the 1920's and 1940's Namdhari's and then AKJr's tried hard to stop Amritdhri's in our village from doing Jhatka (my family are not Nihangs but ordinary tillers of the soil). Our family politely told them to "get lost". I heard this from our Grandfathers brother. He said it was as if these Namdhari's and then AKJ people were trying to compete with Brahmin's as to who is the more purer. My Grandfather and his Thya's answer was simple, "we shall not play the Brahmin's game of purity and we shall not give up our Sant Siphahi (Sikh Warrior Saint) tradition!".

Alas many people in Punjab are trying to play the Brahmin purity game. :unsure:

Regards

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Hazoori's are descended from the original Sikhs who accompanied the 10th Master some 300 Years ago to the Deccan. They have carried on traditions unblemished since that time.

whats the proof of this? Going to hazur sahib last year, i would say many of their practices were similiar to the ones you see in a hindu mandir...

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Hazoori's are descended from the original Sikhs who accompanied the 10th Master some 300 Years ago to the Deccan. They have carried on traditions unblemished since that time.

whats the proof of this? Going to hazur sahib last year, i would say many of their practices were similiar to the ones you see in a hindu mandir...

Plus they are also descendents of Sikhs from Maharaja Ranjit Singh's army who came here to construct Hazur Sahib. They married the local women, that's probably why they don't look Punjabi anymore.

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Hazoori's are descended from the original Sikhs who accompanied the 10th Master some 300 Years ago to the Deccan. They have carried on traditions unblemished since that time.

whats the proof of this? Going to hazur sahib last year, i would say many of their practices were similiar to the ones you see in a hindu mandir...

Plus they also are currently under SGPC and recite 'Agya Bhei Akal Ki' dohra after Ardas like the rest of SGPC Sikhs. This was not introduced until 1870's, so they're definitely not 'original' Sikhs with 'unblemished' practices. Back in the 1940's to even 60's, women were not baptised at Hazoor Sahib. Today they are, though with a Kirpan rather than Khanda. Meat was also not served in main Langar though now they are conflicting reports.

For what it's worth, per the Namdhari tradition, Bhai Rai Singh was sent by Satguru Ram Singh to Hazur Sahib in around 1858-9 to stay and do Paath with Arth (meaning) of Sri Adi and Dasam Granth Sahibji for 3 months and record the Rahit of Hazur Sahib back for Parchar in Punjab. So per the Namdhari tradition these Jhatka and meat eating practices did not exist back then. In fact the Granthi of the inner sanctum who took care of Birs of Granth Sahibs and Shasters also did not eat from the main langar because meat-eating people frequented the main langar. It would be good to get an honest and unbiased answer on how Maryadas have changed or remained the same at Hazur Sahib.

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Plus they also are currently under SGPC and recite 'Agya Bhei Akal Ki' dohra after Ardas like the rest of SGPC Sikhs. This was not introduced until 1870's, so they're definitely not 'original' Sikhs with 'unblemished' practices. Back in the 1940's to even 60's, women were not baptised at Hazoor Sahib. Today they are, though with a Kirpan rather than Khanda. Meat was also not served in main Langar though now they are conflicting reports.

For what it's worth, per the Namdhari tradition, Bhai Rai Singh was sent by Satguru Ram Singh to Hazur Sahib in around 1858-9 to stay and do Paath with Arth (meaning) of Sri Adi and Dasam Granth Sahibji for 3 months and record the Rahit of Hazur Sahib back for Parchar in Punjab. So per the Namdhari tradition these Jhatka and meat eating practices did not exist back then. In fact the Granthi of the inner sanctum who took care of Birs of Granth Sahibs and Shasters also did not eat from the main langar because meat-eating people frequented the main langar. It would be good to get an honest and unbiased answer on how Maryadas have changed or remained the same at Hazur Sahib.

That's very interesting Fateh Singh. Thanks for sharing this. So it seems that traditions change as time goes by.

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Plus they also are currently under SGPC and recite 'Agya Bhei Akal Ki' dohra after Ardas like the rest of SGPC Sikhs. This was not introduced until 1870's, so they're definitely not 'original' Sikhs with 'unblemished' practices. Back in the 1940's to even 60's, women were not baptised at Hazoor Sahib. Today they are, though with a Kirpan rather than Khanda. Meat was also not served in main Langar though now they are conflicting reports.

Well as Mithar pointed out, some of Maharaja Ranjit Singh's Sikhs came some 20 to 30 years earlier. Maybe they added some practices.

Also where are your sources for this and what are these "conflicting reports"?.

In anycase Joginder Singh Moni kept a pretty good record of traditions - Sri Hazoori Maryada Prabodh.

For what it's worth, per the Namdhari tradition, Bhai Rai Singh was sent by Satguru Ram Singh to Hazur Sahib in around 1858-9 to stay and do Paath with Arth (meaning) of Sri Adi and Dasam Granth Sahibji for 3 months and record the Rahit of Hazur Sahib back for Parchar in Punjab. So per the Namdhari tradition these Jhatka and meat eating practices did not exist back then. In fact the Granthi of the inner sanctum who took care of Birs of Granth Sahibs and Shasters also did not eat from the main langar because meat-eating people frequented the main langar. It would be good to get an honest and unbiased answer on how Maryadas have changed or remained the same at Hazur Sahib.

No offence but Namdhari traditions hold no water. Namdhari's should not even believe in Hazoor Sahib because they believe Guru Gobind Singh never died at that time so there is no point to Hazoor Sahib.

In anycase there are records from teh 1800's that record tradition (and prior to that and they totally debunk the Namdhari's):

-Khuswaqt Rae, Twarikh-e-Sikhan (1812)

- Sikh History from Persian Sources - Irfan Habib and Dr JS Grewal (2001)

- The People of India - J Forbes Watson and William Kaye (1868-72)

- A Journey From Bengal to England, thriough the Northern Part of India, Kasmere, Afghanistan and Persia and Into Russia, by the Caspian Sea - George Foster (1798)

There are many many more records from the time and they all would disagree with you accounts.

I also understand In The Master Presence - The Sikhs of Hazoor Sahib has many references in the back, but I haven't had a chance to look through as yet.

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Well as Mithar pointed out, some of Maharaja Ranjit Singh's Sikhs came some 20 to 30 years earlier. Maybe they added some practices.

Also where are your sources for this and what are these "conflicting reports"?.

In anycase Joginder Singh Moni kept a pretty good record of traditions - Sri Hazoori Maryada Prabodh.

No offence but Namdhari traditions hold no water. Namdhari's should not even believe in Hazoor Sahib because they believe Guru Gobind Singh never died at that time so there is no point to Hazoor Sahib.

In anycase there are records from teh 1800's that record tradition (and prior to that and they totally debunk the Namdhari's):

-Khuswaqt Rae, Twarikh-e-Sikhan (1812)

- Sikh History from Persian Sources - Irfan Habib and Dr JS Grewal (2001)

- The People of India - J Forbes Watson and William Kaye (1868-72)

- A Journey From Bengal to England, thriough the Northern Part of India, Kasmere, Afghanistan and Persia and Into Russia, by the Caspian Sea - George Foster (1798)

There are many many more records from the time and they all would disagree with you accounts.

I also understand In The Master Presence - The Sikhs of Hazoor Sahib has many references in the back, but I haven't had a chance to look through as yet.

This thread is about Hazur Sahib. If you want to discuss Namdharis, PM me. If all you want to do is impress your online friends with your lack of knowledge and ignorance, then by all means proceed with your ego trip.

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This thread is about Hazur Sahib. If you want to discuss Namdharis, PM me. If all you want to do is impress your online friends with your lack of knowledge and ignorance, then by all means proceed with your ego trip.

Stop getting personal!!!

You brought Namdhari accounts into this and I have dismissed them based on the fact Namdhari's don't believe Guru Gobind Singh ji died when he did in the Deccan. Infact they believe Guru Gobind Singh didn't die until he was well over 100 years old and passed the mantle to Balak Singh:

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=aeKWQze...snum=5#PPA59,M1

You asked me to provide evidence I have, and I have full knowledge of Namdhari traditions through a relative in our village who succumb to Namdhari propaganda, and he himself has told me of the above. I am not saying Namdhari's are right or wrong, but for Namdhari's Hazoor Sahib would serve no purpose and therefore would not want to go there. Hence their writings on this matter hold no water.

Going back to the thread I have provided a small reading list and sources which provide evidence of what I have stated.

-Joginder Singh Moni - Sri Hazoori Maryada Prabodh.

-Khuswaqt Rae, Twarikh-e-Sikhan (1812)

- Sikh History from Persian Sources - Irfan Habib and Dr JS Grewal (2001)

- The People of India - J Forbes Watson and William Kaye (1868-72)

- A Journey From Bengal to England, thriough the Northern Part of India, Kasmere, Afghanistan and Persia and Into Russia, by the Caspian Sea - George Foster (1798)

- In The Masters Presence - The Sikhs of Hazoor Sahib (2009)

One final point, I note you normally write some quite intelligent remarks and insulting someone like this does not do you justice.

I will acknowledge Mithar's point of the influence of Maharaja Ranjit Singh's Sikh's around the 1840's. I do wonder though about Maharaja Ranjit Singh sometimes and hsis adoption of some Brahmanical traditions (eg Sati).

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I agree with Amardeep.

Going to PM everytime a deeper understanding of Namdhari issues/opinions is being discussed is silly.

It defeats the whole purpose of this forum. As a devoted Namdhari, you should not be afraid to discuss anything with anyone willing to learn.

There are always disprespectful people who insult any sampryada, this doesn't stop people engaging in discussion.

You should only be interested in those who ask genuine, intelligent, searching questions - and willing to openly share with them, and yo uneed to learn to ignore idiots.

We all challenge each others beliefs etc here, you are not handicapped, Namdharis don't deserve special treatment - you are evidently well read and able to debate - so do so with zest, rather than always creating a secretive atmosphere taking questions to PM.

I couldn't find anything on Namdharis and Hazur sahib, so would also appreciate to know what the connection/theory is.

Dhanvaad jeeo.

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- Sikh History from Persian Sources - Irfan Habib and Dr JS Grewal (2001)

i have this book at home, where does it mention anything about the practices of hazoori sikhs? it gives historical accounts of various themes but as far as i remember it does'nt mention anything about jhatka

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- Sikh History from Persian Sources - Irfan Habib and Dr JS Grewal (2001)

i have this book at home, where does it mention anything about the practices of hazoori sikhs? it gives historical accounts of various themes but as far as i remember it does'nt mention anything about jhatka

Correct but it gives an insight into the behaviour of Sikhs from other accounts. A long time since I read it, but I must have included it for a reason.

In The Master Presence - The Sikhs of Hazoor Sahib is very interesting>>I started reading it today.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Masters-Presence-S...b/dp/0956016804

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I agree with Amardeep.

Going to PM everytime a deeper understanding of Namdhari issues/opinions is being discussed is silly.

It defeats the whole purpose of this forum. As a devoted Namdhari, you should not be afraid to discuss anything with anyone willing to learn.

There are always disprespectful people who insult any sampryada, this doesn't stop people engaging in discussion.

You should only be interested in those who ask genuine, intelligent, searching questions - and willing to openly share with them, and yo uneed to learn to ignore idiots.

We all challenge each others beliefs etc here, you are not handicapped, Namdharis don't deserve special treatment - you are evidently well read and able to debate - so do so with zest, rather than always creating a secretive atmosphere taking questions to PM.

I couldn't find anything on Namdharis and Hazur sahib, so would also appreciate to know what the connection/theory is.

Dhanvaad jeeo.

Even after writing, in English I believe, about what the significance of Hazur Sahib is, with regards to Bhai Rai Singh being sent to do Viakhia of Granth Sahibs and bringing back Maryada, when people continue to give me BS like 'Namdharis' beliefs hold no water and Namdharis should not believe in this or that', I don't think anyone is that handicapped to not be able to see through what is being done here.

If knowledge is what you need, why does it matter if it is in PM? I've been around these forums enough to know that most people, unlike Amardeep's theory, have no real tolerance for or don't really care about learning when it comes to Namdharis. All they want to do is share what's been filled into them (usually baseless hatred) on a one-sided basis. So as such it is also in a way a litmus test. If that person wants to know, he can pm me.

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Even after writing, in English I believe, about what the significance of Hazur Sahib is, with regards to Bhai Rai Singh being sent to do Viakhia of Granth Sahibs and bringing back Maryada, when people continue to give me BS like 'Namdharis' beliefs hold no water and Namdharis should not believe in this or that', I don't think anyone is that handicapped to not be able to see through what is being done here.

If knowledge is what you need, why does it matter if it is in PM? I've been around these forums enough to know that most people, unlike Amardeep's theory, have no real tolerance for or don't really care about learning when it comes to Namdharis. All they want to do is share what's been filled into them (usually baseless hatred) on a one-sided basis. So as such it is also in a way a litmus test. If that person wants to know, he can pm me.

Fatehsingh, this behaviour really is too much. You really have to learn some manners when writing on discussion boards. If you have evidence to the contrary then provide your sourse. Do not refer to me as talking "BS". :angry:

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How many Sikh here who eat meat actually eat it killed the jathka way. It's good to know how animals are killed in slaughter houses, because surely it is not the jatka way.

Stop going off topic. This subject is about Hazoor Sahib and ritualism..

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