Hew Mcleod Documentary (part 1)

[dalsingh101]

Watch this. I didn't know he had adopted a half Sikh girl.

You can see the whole documentary part by part.

[cul]

wth is a half sikh

[HSD1]

wth is a half sikh

someone who has one sikh parent, but the other one isnt.

[tonyhp32]

I found the documentary a bit wishy washy and sentimental. It didn't cover many of the bukwas McLeod wrote and didn't give much coverage to those who do not find his writings honest.

[Mithar]

I found the documentary a bit wishy washy and sentimental. It didn't cover many of the bukwas McLeod wrote and didn't give much coverage to those who do not find his writings honest.

I agree. The boot licking of the Angrej I saw apne doing on that documentory made me throw up.

[dalsingh101]

I agree. The boot licking of the Angrej I saw apne doing on that documentory made me throw up.

Plenty of that going on here...lol

[singh2]

Plenty of that going on here...lol

A typical sneaker, back biter and a timid. I never praised Mcleod. All i am saying is that thuggery of your gang

is much graver than his works.

You guys are groomed in the lies,distortions and sycophancy tricks of kala afghana and IOSS thugs. Say something and then disappear

That is not a sikh trait.

[singh2]

kala afghani fauj did not participate in this thread on the pretext that he is very busy.

But he is busy in sending private messages. The following i received today.One can gauge the knowledge

he has gained by reading SGGS ji.

QUOTE

PM rceived from fauj

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

Inder singh devta ji,

Song below gives us more education than chariters in less than 4 minutes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TwfZULp2VY0

Should we write Pt. 10 and promote in gurduaras?

Mahakaal Di Motor Tay Kach Di Glaasi Kharkay

Mahakaal loves booze and weed so a song dedicated to Mahakaal.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-XJ3ijoYlwo

To Administrator

Please do not take this out. it stands as a testimony to the mindset of kala afghani/Darsahn ragi /IOSS

clique. Like sect head like followers.

Edited July 27, 2009 by singh2

[cul]

someone who has one sikh parent, but the other one isnt.

point is, the concept of a 'half sikh' is retarded

there is no such thing, you either are or you're not, it's not something genetic that is passed on in part from parent to child

[dalsingh101]

A typical sneaker, back biter and a timid. I never praised Mcleod. All i am saying is that thuggery of your gang

is much graver than his works.

You guys are groomed in the lies,distortions and sycophancy tricks of kala afghana and IOSS thugs. Say something and then disappear

That is not a sikh trait.

You are borderline senile and paranoid mate. Not worth the time.

Do you check under your bed before you sleep to make sure Kala Afghana bogeymen are not hidin there..lol

I have work to do, unlike yourself it seems, and am not unhealthily obsessed with what we discuss.

Ramble on.....I'd be better off reading a book than engaging with your schizio nonsense.

[singh2]

You are borderline senile and paranoid mate. Not worth the time.

Do you check under your bed before you sleep to make sure Kala Afghana bogeymen are not hidin there..lol

I have work to do, unlike yourself it seems, and am not unhealthily obsessed with what we discuss.

Ramble on.....I'd be better off reading a book than engaging with your schizio nonsense.

Truth is bitter mr subtle propagandist. You can write your nonsense in secure environments of SPN where they censor

the posts of others. Enter the even filed and enjoy the exchanges.

WE will not let blasphemy resorted by a handfuls go uncontested. Next time you will open your mouth with care.

[dalsingh101]

Look who is talking. The man who attributes things to McLeod that even McLeod has not claimed!

Truth is, whilst you rant like a mad man on Kala Afghana, who pretty much everyone agrees is an idiot. You turn a blind eye to McLeodian nonsense and even bolster his chelay, like Pashaura. If there is some conspiracy, it is you who are part of it, by giving credibility to McLeod and his chumchay.

Have you read Louis Fenech's work on shaheedi in Sikhi? This PHd was supervised by McLeod, get off you backside and read that. Then tell me what kind view of Sikhism McLeod was promoting. Read it and tell me you are not disgusted by the attitude towards Sikh shaheeds.

McLeod is infinitely more mischevious than KA, because KA views are limited to a small amount of his chelay. Whereas McLeod, using his so called academic platform, spreads his nonsense to a much wider audience.

You are obviously highly biased about the McLeodian set. That is your issue. They say the best thing to do with a fool is not engage them. You make me laugh with the way you twist every debate with a point contrary to yours into some Kala Afghana conspiracy. It borders on insanity/paranoia. Seek help.

Edited July 27, 2009 by dalsingh101

[Only five]

Here is a video to what Mcloed and his henchmen are up too. Well not Mcloed anymore, the guys six feet under. Calling Guru Nanak Dev ji a Hindu and then saying Sikhi is a sect of Hinduism. And this Mcloed guy is a Sikh scholar. Come on this must be a joke.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3...02585&hl=en

[Mithar]

Here is a video to what Mcloed and his henchmen are up too. Well not Mcloed anymore, the guys six feet under. Calling Guru Nanak Dev ji a Hindu and then saying Sikhi is a sect of Hinduism. And this Mcloed guy is a Sikh scholar. Come on this must be a joke.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3...02585&hl=en

The sad thing is the link above has Jeowala whose Anti Sikh activities need no introduction even though his points about Mcleod were valid.

The following link also provides a good book refuting McLeod's lies.

http://www.globalsikhstudies.net/pdf/Ernest_Trumpp.pdf

I read this years ago. This book should be available in every Sikh library since the lies in Mcleod's books are available in almost all public libraries.

[Only five]

The sad thing is the link above has Jeowala whose Anti Sikh activities need no introduction even though his points about Mcleod were valid.

The following link also provides a good book refuting McLeod's lies.

http://www.globalsikhstudies.net/pdf/Ernest_Trumpp.pdf

I read this years ago. This book should be available in every Sikh library since the lies in Mcleod's books are available in almost all public libraries.

Yeah it's too bad that jeowala is presenting these facts about Mcloed in the video. But you gotta admit he did a great job exposing Mcloed here.

[singh2]

name='dalsingh101' date='Jul 27 2009, 07:08 PM' post='102547']

Look who is talking. The man who attributes things to McLeod that even McLeod has not claimed!

Sitting at home in UK you will not know.these things. Once you come out of the closet you will know these things.

Truth is, whilst you rant like a mad man on Kala Afghana, who pretty much everyone agrees is an idiot. You turn a blind eye to McLeodian nonsense and even bolster his chelay, like Pashaura. If there is some conspiracy, it is you who are part of it, by giving credibility to McLeod and his chumchay.

Everyone knows who is more dangerous. It is not a dead man but people who have created Kala afghana propped and sustained him. THat IS IOSS. Gurteja ex head of IOSS is bosom buddy of kala afghana.

Have you read Louis Fenech's work on shaheedi in Sikhi? This PHd was supervised by McLeod, get off you backside and read that. Then tell me what kind view of Sikhism McLeod was promoting. Read it and tell me you are not disgusted by the attitude towards Sikh shaheeds.

Mcleod was a historian. His field was limited to history. Learn the difference between theology and history.

McLeod is infinitely more mischevious than KA, because KA views are limited to a small amount of his chelay. Whereas McLeod, using his so called academic platform, spreads his nonsense to a much wider audience.

Here you are showing your colours again.

Kala afghana writes

1)Waheguru is not Gurmantra of sikhs

2) Amrit vela has no significance in sikhism

3) Nam simran is useless excercise

4) There is nothing like soul in a body

5) There is no karmic theory in Gurbani teachings

6) Sikhism does not endorse reincarnation.

7) Respect for Harmandir sahib is a brahmin practice

8) Pool of Harmandir sahib is just like an ordinary pond

9) Trimmed beards officers have brought laurels to sikhs for bravery in battlefield . then

why sikhs clamour for Amrit?

I can go on but will stop. Has Mcleod said anything like this? Please reply. May be your understanding of sikhism is different than me.

[singh2]

The sad thing is the link above has Jeowala whose Anti Sikh activities need no introduction even though his points about Mcleod were valid.

The following link also provides a good book refuting McLeod's lies.

http://www.globalsikhstudies.net/pdf/Ernest_Trumpp.pdf

I read this years ago. This book should be available in every Sikh library since the lies in Mcleod's books are available in almost all public libraries.

Mithar ji

I am surprised about the link you are providing here. Have you gone through this website.

It is the worst website full of lies,deceit and famous for misguiding sikhs on dasam granth issue.

The owner of website knows nothing about the contents of Dasam granth and he is writing rubbish

about dasam granth.

I hope we know the facts before believing and referring such heretic websites.

[singh2]

Here is a video to what Mcloed and his henchmen are up too. Well not Mcloed anymore, the guys six feet under. Calling Guru Nanak Dev ji a Hindu and then saying Sikhi is a sect of Hinduism. And this Mcloed guy is a Sikh scholar. Come on this must be a joke.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3...02585&hl=en

Only five ji

Do you know these people? If not let me tell you.

Raghbir singh samagh is famous clog in the henchmen of kala afghana people. he speaks out in doctored videos.

You will find many videos where he is seen interviewing Kala afghna, Ragi darshan, Jugraj kaur on Dasam granth.

You can put those also here for us.

It is a propaganda compaign to win sympathy of sikhs. I hope we have the ability to see through such schemes.

[singh2]

One member gave the website global--studies as a reliable source for Gurmat. This is the most heretic site

known among sikhs of belief. THis site has been intrumental in misleading many many sikhs on Dasam Granth.

The lies , distortions and lack of knowledge on sikh scriptures of this man can be gauged from the following post of another member

where he rebutted his fabrications . The reply is self evident

jasbir singh Mann writes as below

Please note Malcolm account clearly accepts services of Nirmala Atma Ram @

Calcutta who helped him to understand Sikh History.Chhand 201(Ek samey Sri

Atma Uchrio) in Akal Ustit & Four Chhands 126-130( din Ajab Atma Ram) in Gian

prabodh written by Atma Ram indicates his involvement in creation of Dasmi

Patshahi Granth and Mahants at Patna sahib promoted this granth.

Rebuttal by our group memeber

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/learning-zone/message/49396

Dear Dr Jasbir Singh Ji Mann:

Waheguru Ji ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh Hai:

In above you are writing: "Gianprabodh written by Atma Ram".

This you are saying because of Chhand 201 in Akal Ustatt, and Four

Chhands 126-130 in Gianprabodh.

I would like to submit that this evidence you have provided is

baseless and without any serious thought behind it. The reason is

that:

1. The Akal Ustatt Chhand 201 begins with

Aik samaye Sri Atma Uchryio Matt seo bain||

Sabh Partap Jagdees ko kaho sakal bidh tain||

Ko Atama saroop hai Kaha Srisht ko beechar||

Kaun Dharam ko karam hai, kaho sakal bisthaar||....

This part of Akal Ustatt is filled with most fundamental questions

of life. It is expressed in dialogue form. The first line indicates

that it is a question being posed by Soul (Sri Atma) to

the "Intellect" (Matt). The first question is: Describe all the

details of Power of God (Jagdees ko partap). Second line asks the

question: What is nature of Soul (Atma da Saroop ki hai?), and How

did this world came into existence (Kaho Srishat ko beechar). Next

question is; What are truly religious actions (Dharm ko karm kya

hai?). The next part asks questions about what is Life and what is

death? What is heaven and what is hell (Swarg-Narq)...

To save space I am not including more details. Now, because the

word "Sri Atma" appears in this chhand and, the word Atma Ram

appears in Gyan Parbodh, you claim it is written by nirmala Pandit

Sri Atma Ram Ji.

Let us look at Gyan Parbodh part that you indicate i.e. Chhand 126

to 130: I am reproducing all four chhands below, with meanings to

follow:

Anchhijj tej, aajaan bah|| Rajaan raj, sha-haan shah||

Uchryio Atma Pratma sang||Utbhujj saroop, abgitt abhungg|

Eh kaun ahey Atmaa saroop||Jeh amit tej,atbhut bibhoot||

Pratma Baach:

Yeh Bruhm ahay Atma saroop|| Jeh amit tej abgitt akaam||

Jeh bhed bharm nahi karam kaal|| Jeh satr mittr sarba dyal||

Dobyio na bubbay sokhiyo na jayey||Katyio na kattey , na baryio

brayey||

Chhijjay na naik,sat shashtr paat||Jeh satr mittr nahi jaat paat||

Sattr sahuns sat sat prghayey|| Chhijjai na naik, khandyio na jayey||

Nahi jarrey naik pawak majhaar|| Boray na sindh, sokhai na

bayaar||130||

Meanings:

Praise that entity who's power & glory never diminishes, that

Waheguruji's arms reach all places. He is the king of kings, and He

is the loftiest of all rulers. (Chhand 126)

One day the individual soul (Atma) addressed the Higher soul (Sri

Waheguru ji's Shakti). That power of higher soul is

always "Creative" (Utbhuj), unboundable into forms and

unfragmentable, and asked:What is natue of this individual soul? Its

glory is supposed to be infinite, and its substance is so

wonderful? (Chhand 127)

The Higher Soul (Pra-Atmaa) said:

This individual soul is infact Bruhm saroop, that is Jyot saroop

Waheguru's part. Its glory is without decline, and it is desireless

& unboundable. It does not discriminate (it is unbiased), neither it

is subject to time and actions. It does not have any friends or

foes, and is always merciful to wards all. (Chhand 128)

It cannot be drowned or soaked with anything, neither it can be cut

or burnt. It cannot be pierced by athousands of weapons.It does not

have any enemy or friend and it does not align with any body.

(Chhand 129)

If thousands of enemy join tgether and attack it with various

weapons, it still cannot be broken, or fragmented. It would not burn

in the fire, and it cannot be dried by the winds/air.. (Chhand 130)

Now, my dear Dr Jasbir Singh Ji, please explain where is this ghost

of Atma Ram in these both texts that you gave evidence of???

May I further ask the question: How is any part of this writing in

contradiction to Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji?? how does it mislead

anybody?? or How many Sikhs went in the wrong way due to their faith

in this bani??

Is this Bani not exactly as:

Jal nahi doobey taskar nahi leivei, bhahe na sakkay jalleyor Satguru

Arjan Dev ji??

Is it any different from : Awadh katyio na jaat prem rass charn

kamal sang. Davan bandhyi na jaat bidhay mann dars mag. Pawak jaryio

na jaat . Neeer na sakas borr chaleh har panth mag|| Nanak rog dokh

agh moh chhiday har naam khag||.

Regarding this conclusion you drew (That Pandit Atma Ram wrote Gyan

Parbodh in Dasam Granth), I am reminded of the namdhari assertion

that Guru Sahibji wrote in Rehraas Sahib that Sikhs must go and live

at Sirsa, as in Sant Sajjan Bhaeye SARSAY, pooray Gur te janii.

Therefore Kukas have another sub-headuarters in Sirsa.

If we follow thi logic, then the Shabds in Sri uru Granth Sahib Ji

such as: Atma Raam na poojni doojjai keon sukh hoeye (angg 1415)

WOULD BE WRITTEN BY THE SAME Atma Ram Nirmala!!

Also, your attempt to conclude that having respect and regard for

Sri Dasam Granth would diminish respect of Sri Guru Granth Sahib, is

absolutely without merit. just ask your own heart, and also reflect

on the Sikh historical horizon,f that ever happened? Infact Guru

Piareys derived great inspiration before going on military campaigns

from the Sri Dasam Guru ji's bani. In particular an AmritDhari Sikh

cannot question thi own father's bani because Panj Piareys in Guru

form ordained this. Thi fundamental violation shall cause a

bottomless hole, Rasatal toa for a Sikh.

S. Avninder Singh Mangat has presented formidable argument to

counter your British conspiracy theory. Why were Kukas not promoted

because they were in the forfront to challenge the Guruship of Sri

Guru Granth Sahib? Ther is no use cutting and pasting withot editing

garbled stuff each time this discussion comes up even if

unintentionally, as it happened this time when S. Jagpal Singh

tiwana ji posted news about my visit to the Gurdwara sahib in

Halifax. many solid questions have been asked and evidence

presented, but you are maintaining a stance as if it is a personal

prestige issue. I say this because you have really presented this

Atma Ram argument without looking at the original. You have been

using the single line of Sarb Loh's introductio as well without

merit. The question that why S. Baghel Singh dinot install dasam

Granth in Delhi Gurdwaras is of same category. Nobody can tell what

he installe or not or which Granthis did he appoint from which place

etc. These are all lame arguments. I respect and thank you for your

kind attention.

Please, also note that Iam not a Doctor of anything. I hope you used

Dr in front of my name by mistake.

Thanks and Charhdee Kalaa.

harkinder Singh

London Ontario Canada

Unquote

I wish learned members know their friends and foes before believing in such heretic site.

[Mithar]

Mithar ji

I am surprised about the link you are providing here. Have you gone through this website.

It is the worst website full of lies,deceit and famous for misguiding sikhs on dasam granth issue.

The owner of website knows nothing about the contents of Dasam granth and he is writing rubbish

about dasam granth.

I hope we know the facts before believing and referring such heretic websites.

Singh2 brother, I do not like to provide links to Anti Dasam Granth people myself because if there is anyone I hate more than the Mcleodians it is the Kala Afghanists.

But the book(from the link) itself is written by Trilochan Singh. He was not a Kala Afghanist. Kala Afghanists try to hide behind the names of great Sikh vidhvaans in order to give themselves credit since they themselves do not have any credible vidhvaans. Just because they hide behind great names like Prof Sahib Singh and Bhai Kahn Singh Nabha does not mean we should now discard these authentic Sikh vidhvaans.

[singh2]

Singh2 brother, I do not like to provide links to Anti Dasam Granth people myself because if there is anyone I hate more than the Mcleodians it is the Kala Afghanists.

But the book(from the link) itself is written by Trilochan Singh. He was not a Kala Afghanist. Kala Afghanists try to hide behind the names of great Sikh vidhvaans in order to give themselves credit since they themselves do not have any credible vidhvaans. Just because they hide behind great names like Prof Sahib Singh and Bhai Kahn Singh Nabha does not mean we should now discard these authentic Sikh vidhvaans.

Mithar ji

Bottomm line is Mcleod was histrorian . He made mistakes and he was criticized for that. He admiited many of those mistakes himself.

But he did not comment on basic faith system of sikhs. That s where the difference lies. If you say he had an agenda, where is that agenda.

But to me there is no agenda. let us let him rest in peace.

[dalsingh101]

Singh2 said:

Mcleod was a historian. His field was limited to history. Learn the difference between theology and history.

Are you saying that Sikh theology/ideology hasn't had a considerable influence on subsequent Sikh history?

Seriously, read that Louis Fenech book. I think it may open you eyes to these people. Rarely have I been disgusted by what I have read. That was one of the few exceptions.

Don't do the angry man on the net thing. Get hold of a copy (try and borrow it because the author does not deserve any sort of financial rewards that he may receive if you buy it), and then explain it to us.

You talk of no agenda: But how do you explain his supervision of many PHd projects which produced material very offensive to accepted Sikh belief. Look at Doris Jacob, Lou Fennech, Harjot Oberoi.

Edited July 28, 2009 by dalsingh101

[singh2]

You talk of no agenda: But how do you explain his supervision of many PHd projects which produced material very offensive to accepted Sikh belief. Look at Doris Jacob, Lou Fennech, Harjot Oberoi.

You have mentioned Doris jacob. Do you any of her writings being derogatory to sikh faith? If so please put those here.

I will also reveal how she was wronged by one of the IOSS chaps. I am gathering facts on this. It may take a couple of days.

Something was put in her mouth that she never said. The sayer was IOSS chap. That is how they manipulate. The issues at stake

is politics. There are some who consider them as authority on sikh issues and do not want any appointment to be made without their say.

One of them is same who does not know even the contents of Dasam granth but is maintaining a heretic site to misguide sikh

youngsters on dasam granth. He has taken it a personal issue to prove Dasam granth as not from tenth master as he ahd taken a stand on thsi

and later rebuttals proved him wrong.he is the man who has played politics with Doris also.

Edited July 28, 2009 by singh2

[singh2]

The other prominent case is Gurinder singh Mann. He is heading sikh chair at UC Santa barbara. he was also on their

hit list . he is the most foxy character among all.

The same manipulator wanted to punish him also. now this man was very influential back in india because of his family

connections. they could not do anything to him. Rather this man is commended by President of SGPC late

Gurchartan singh taura in writing for his reasearch. The point is that they could play politics with weak and poor people like Pashaura singh but

when it came to gurinder Mann they were helpless.

[dalsingh101]

Yety again, you fail to address the issue at hand and selectively read what you like. Have you actuall read any ofteh McLeodian stuff I am referring to?

If so, can yo tell me which publications of his chumchay you have read? If you haven't, just please say so. Stay quiet. Do some research and then come back.

Are you going to read Jacobs and Fennech's books or are you just going to keep defending your position without doing this?

Edited July 28, 2009 by dalsingh101