Devi Pargat By Guru Gobind Singh?

[shaheediyan]

"But to worship the image of a lady on a tiger is foolish. To worship the eternal Light behind such representations is altogether different"

Laal Singh Veer, what exactly with the above do you disagre with? How is the above not in line with Gurmat?

[chatanga1]

"But to worship the image of a lady on a tiger is foolish. To worship the eternal Light behind such representations is altogether different"

Laal Singh has made himslef clear on what he thinks of the above quote. i agree with him. i dont think there is any merit in it whatsoever. And i dont think that Guru Nanak thought there was any merit in it as well.

[Mekhane'ch Jannat]

If I may stick my oar in, I hope you do not mind, into the muddy waters. Consider that a sentence composed of words has a body. A subject, object and verb are the frame and on this frame or skeleton are added adjectives participles etc. Also there are tenses and whatnot that are parts of this body. So would it not be absurd to say that a sikh who worships Shabad-Guru is worshipping this body of words? We look at the meaning concealed within this body. It is the same with an image of Ma Durga. But as humans have 'evolved' the pattern of mentation has changed from conceiving forms and images to a more word orientated thought patterns. This is why it is not recommended to worship images by later religions like ISlam and Sikhi because human thought changed and began to conceive the world less as pictures and more abstractedly. There is a correct form of worship for each time and place, in accordance with the psyche of Human Beings, which is not static.

[Balbir Singh]

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!

Dear all and Laalsingh Jee!

You wrote "On the other hand, SGGS is full of shabads where devi (laxmi or shakti) is shown as maya (and in a bad light)."

Please provide one reference where reverend Gurus have said so. I will be grateful.

Perhaps you have read and understood the translations. Sikhs have no choice left than muddling down in reading, discussing and preaching translations.

Experiencing the Guru is a blessing.

Balbir Singh

[chatanga1]

This is why it is not recommended to worship images by later religions like ISlam and Sikhi because human thought changed and began to conceive the world less as pictures and more abstractedly.

you think that gurmat is "human thought"?

during the moghal empire did idol worship stop?

[Mekhane'ch Jannat]

you think that gurmat is "human thought"?

No, but how do you access Gurmat? you can only conceive of the concepts created by the Guru's by your thought. What I am saying is that this conception or ability to conceive ideas began to change. Which was reflected in Sikhi by the refutation of falsely worshipping idols. Which, at that time were not appropriate, as the psyche or the means of conceiving ideas, of mankind was changing.

during the moghal empire did idol worship stop?

The efficacy of idol worship began to stop, that is why the Gurus talked against it. Because the outer was not in harmony with the inner. The Gurus endeavoured to align mans inner world with the outer, to create harmony. This is why the world is false as the inner diverges sharply from the outer.

[PAL 07]

BALBIR SINGH -

BRAHMGYANI KO KOJEH MAHESUR - The Devtas are forever looking for the darshan and seva of Mahapursh naam abysises.........this is from Sukhmani Sahib i would have thought you knew at least this much but guess i was wrong.

Harjas thankyou for letting us know that you know how to copy and paste however i have't read any of your posts because of the sheer info overload, i did read a bit of your first post (before i started thinking to myself what the hell am i doing wasting my time here) which was good but 98% of it was irrelevant to this thread.......let me give you tip.........

start a new thread and copy and paste as much as you like there.

Edited January 18, 2010 by PAL 07

[singh2]

ਅਨਹਦ ਰੂਪ ਅਨਾਹਦ ਬਾਨੀ ॥

अनहद रूप अनाहद बानी ॥

He is Limitless Entity and hath infinite celestial strain.

ਚਰਨ ਸਰਨਿ ਜਿਹ ਬਸਤ ਭਵਾਨੀ ॥

चरन सरनि जिह बसत भवानी ॥

The goddess Durga takes refuge at His Feet and abides there.

Dasam granth sahib

raamkalee mehlaa 5.

Raamkalee, Fifth Mehl:

mahimaa na jaaneh bayd.

The Vedas do not know His greatness.

barahmay nahee jaaneh bhayd.

Brahma does not know His mystery.

avtaar na jaaneh ant.

Incarnated beings do not know His limit.

parmaysar paarbarahm bay-ant. ||1||

The Transcendent Lord, the Supreme Lord God, is infinite. ||1||

apnee gat aap jaanai.

Only He Himself knows His own state.

sun sun avar vakhaanai. ||1|| rahaa-o.

Others speak of Him only by hearsay. ||1||Pause||

sankraa nahee jaaneh bhayv.

Shiva does not know His mystery.

khojat haaray dayv.

The gods gave grown weary of searching for Him.

ਦੇਵੀਆ ਨਹੀ ਜਾਨੈ ਮਰਮ ॥

dayvee-aa nahee jaanai maram.

The goddesses do not know His mystery.

ਸਭ ਊਪਰਿ ਅਲਖ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ

sabh oopar alakh paarbarahm. ||2||

Above all is the unseen, Supreme Lord God. ||2||

apnai rang kartaa kayl.

The Creator Lord plays His own plays.

aap bichhorai aapay mayl.

He Himself separates, and He Himself unites.

ik bharmay ik bhagtee laa-ay.

Some wander around, while others are linked to His devotional worship.

Apxw kIAw Awip jxwey ]3] (894-8, rwmklI, mÚ 5)

apnaa kee-aa aap janaa-ay. ||3||

By His actions, He makes Himself known. ||3||

santan kee sun saachee saakhee.

Listen to the true story of the Saints.

so boleh jo paykheh aakhee.

They speak only of what they see with their eyes.

nahee layp tis punn na paap.

He is not involved with virtue or vice.

naanak kaa parabh aapay aap. ||4||25||36||

Nanak's God is Himself all-in-

SGGS ji 894

Edited January 18, 2010 by singh2

[Balbir Singh]

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!

Dear all and PAL 07 Jee!

You want to teach. "BRAHMGYANI KO KOJEH MAHESUR - The Devtas are forever looking for the darshan and seva of Mahapursh naam abysises."

Does MAHESUR means the Devtas, BRAHMGYANI means Mahapursh naam abysises and KOJEH means forever looking for the darshan and seva of?

Also, please provide the reference of your conclusion "In fact a true khalsa is much greater than devtas."

*****

Singh2 Jee!

Thanks for the great references.

The translations and their followers are the result of today's Sikhi. All the provided translations of the referred Vaaks, in my view, are not correct.

We may discuss any Vaak of your choice.

The translation of the first Vaak you referred is this, in my view.

Please ponder the following.

ਅਨਹਦ ਰੂਪ ਅਨਾਹਦ ਬਾਨੀ ॥

अनहद रूप अनाहद बानी ॥

Limitless entity unbroken speech.

*****

Please accompany me in Satsang if the matter interests you without referring borrowed translations.

Balbir Singh

[singh2]

Balbir singh ji

The verses are very clear.Do not find fault with translations.

ਮਹਾ ਮਾਈ ਕੀ ਪੂਜਾ ਕਰੈ ॥

mahaa maa-ee kee poojaa karai.

One who worships the Great Goddess Maya

ਨਰ ਸੈ ਨਾਰਿ ਹੋਇ ਅਉਤਰੈ ॥੩॥

nar sai naar ho-ay a-utarai. ||3||

will be reincarnated as a woman, and not a man. ||3||

ਤੂ ਕਹੀਅਤ ਹੀ ਆਦਿ ਭਵਾਨੀ ॥

too kahee-at hee aad bhavaanee.

You are called the Primal Goddess.

ਮੁਕਤਿ ਕੀ ਬਰੀਆ ਕਹਾ ਛਪਾਨੀ ॥੪॥

mukat kee baree-aa kahaa chhapaanee. ||4||

At the time of liberation, where will you hide then? ||4|

SGGS 874

[The Khalsa Fauj]

Quotes which DG lovers use against me are now being used against them to promote devi worship and avtarvaad. That is why I say, lets get proper arths of Gurbani done. But no, hatred for anti-DGs is blinding you guys. As a result, Sikh faith is being attacked from all around. In the end, truth will win but this is just making the process long.

[HarjasDevi]

O yeh and just another thing there is no such thing as devi having 8arms (or anyother devtas for that matter) infact they only have twoarms like us and the other arms are symbolic of the things that theyare holding, notice in pictures of devi she is not carrying onlyweapons.

All have two arms like us? Where did you get that?

ਕਿਆ ਜਪੁ ਕਿਆ ਤਪੁ ਕਿਆ ਬ੍ਰਤ ਪੂਜਾ ॥

Ki▫ā jap ki▫ā ṯap ki▫ā baraṯ pūjā.

What use is chanting, and what use is penance, fasting or devotional worship,

ਜਾ ਕੈ ਰਿਦੈ ਭਾਉ ਹੈ ਦੂਜਾ ॥੧॥

Jā kai riḏai bẖā▫o hai ḏūjā. ||1||

to one whose heart is filled with the love of duality? ||1||

ਰੇ ਜਨ ਮਨੁ ਮਾਧਉ ਸਿਉ ਲਾਈਐ ॥

Re jan man māḏẖa▫o si▫o lā▫ī▫ai.

O humble people, link your mind to the Lord.

ਚਤੁਰਾਈ ਨ ਚਤੁਰਭੁਜੁ ਪਾਈਐ ॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥

Cẖaṯurā▫ī na cẖaṯurbẖuj pā▫ī▫ai. Rahā▫o.

Through cleverness, the four-armed Lord is not obtained.

~SGGS Ji ang 324

Who is the four-armed Lord in Gurbani? I will give you a hint.

ਸੰਖ ਚਕ੍ਰ ਗਦਾ ਹੈ ਧਾਰੀ ਮਹਾ ਸਾਰਥੀ ਸਤਸੰਗਾ ॥੧੦॥

Sankẖ cẖakar gaḏā hai ḏẖārī mahā sārthī saṯsangā. ||10||

He carries the conch, the chakra and the war club; He is the Great Charioteer, who stays with His Saints. ||10||

ਪੀਤ ਪੀਤੰਬਰ ਤ੍ਰਿਭਵਣ ਧਣੀ ॥

Pīṯ pīṯambar ṯaribẖavaṇ ḏẖaṇī.

The Lord of yellow robes, the Master of the three worlds.

ਜਗੰਨਾਥੁ ਗੋਪਾਲੁ ਮੁਖਿ ਭਣੀ ॥

Jagannāth gopāl mukẖ bẖaṇī.

The Lord of the Universe, the Lord of the world; with my mouth, I chant His Name.

~SGGS Ji ang 1082

Veer ji, to carry a conch is on it's own pretty meaningless unless you understand what the conch is representing. Then you understand the power being represented by the imagery. First of all, the Lord who has 4 arms and carries these implements is Hari. It's not a new idea, it's a very ancient Hidustani representation of God in the aspect of Vishnu shown as His brilliant Light roop which is golden colored, hence, He is called Hari, as in Harimandir Sahib.

This imagery doesn't mean Gurbani is talking about worshipping a murthi of a deva. It means, using the symbolic imagery of Hindustani culture and religion, Gurbani is not alienated from the symbolic imagery of Hindustani culture and religion the way we are today. The Guru Sahibaan and purataan Sikhs had a far deeper and better understanding of this imagery than the simplistic, nay, childish portrayals we make today.

The conch is used by Hindus for all sacred temple rituals. No other instrument is purer, because the conch is entire created by the Divine. It is not a man-made item. So it is not polluted by man. The conch is used to sound out the OM. So the conch is representing the Primal Nada. When Lord Vishnu is holding the conch shell, it is representing that the OM/AUM/Pranava which brought everything into creation is originating with Him. And in this aspect, because we know it was Brahma, and not Vishnu who is the creator, we can see that the aspect of Vishnu being expressed in the bani is Parabrahm, Mahavishnu, the Divine Creator Lord. This is entirely Vaishnav Sampradaya teaching. You see, in Sanatana Dharma, all these images aren't competing. It's not one Lording it over another. There is only the One without a second. And all the rest are opulences, lights, magnificences, glories, relating to the One God's inconceivable powers.

Today I am going to tell you how the conch came to be known by that name. There was once a wicked demon. His name was Panchajanya. Panchajanya tempted the young people into performing wrong acts. By engaging in wrong activities, the young people's lives were ruined. Lord Krishna's Guru's name was Sandipany. The son of Sandipany had become prey to the evil acts of Panchajanya. Krishna rescued the son of Sandipany and returned him to his parents. From the bones of Panchajanya, Krishna carved out a conch. When this conch was blown, it warned the evil people what fate awaited them, if they continued in their wicked activities. When the great battle Mahabharata was about to be waged in Kurukshetra, it was the Panchajanya conch that was blown to strike terror into the hearts of the enemy. The conch is also blown during auspicious occasions. The sound of the conch is like the 'Om' sound. Panchajanya

You see the evil demon of the story, Panchajanya is also representing the panj vikaars which cause people to engage in wrong activities. It is the Lord Himself who warns them through the conch which represents the OM vibrating out of the primal NAAD into sansaara through teachings of true Guru who gives us Shabad, Bani, Giurmantr, NAAM. This protects us from the evil panj vikaars. That is the meaning of conch in the bani.

Devi Ma is shown as Shastar-dhari. She is the Battle goddess. That is Her role and function. The Adi Shakti is the energetic force present in those shastars dedicated to the Divine for Dharma. That is their empowerment that they become something holy themselves worthy of worship because the Divine Power is in them. The Divine Power is SYMBOLIZED by Durga Ma. But the Power and the Glory belong only to the One. THAT is Guruji's message. People aren't worshipping metal, they are showing the honor and submission to the Power of God in the sword. Because the God Himself has become a Sword. And the imagery with which He does this is Kalika. Kali is a shakti of Durga. You see, they are really all shakti's of each other, because they are reflections of a RADIANCE which is quite beyond human comprehension. And it it's fullness, that RADIANCE is only ONE. But Chandi/Durga Ma is Guruji's imagery. I didn't put that into the purataan heritage of Gursikhi.

The reason the devatay are shown with many arms and heads for example, is not because they are holding a lot of things.

It's because they are higher than human, multi-dimensional. Meaning they are acting on more than one level of reality. Where we can only do things on this dimensional reality and are subject to laws of science, they are not limited in the ways we are. Now, I did not say they are unlimited or without limits. Only AKAAL is without limits. Devatay have limits, but they are beyond our limits. That is the symbolic representation of their ability to do more than we can.

A 4 dimensional Hypercube, also called Tesseract. We can't really show a 2 or 3 dimensional representation of something beyond 4 dimensions and have it be a true representation in 3-dimensional space that makes any logical sense. Multi-dimensionality is shown by multi-limbs in Hindu tradition. Is there really a painting or sculpture which could capture the immensity of a multi-dimensional concept? How about the idea of universes and lokas originating thousands of years before telescopes and the debates whether the earth revolves around the sun?

[PAL 07]

BALBIR SINGH

Now you don't know the meaning of mahesur - talking to you is like talking to a brick wall, and so i give up.

PERHAPS SANT GURBACHAN SINGH CAN HELP YOU UNDERSTAND IN THIS AUDIO PIECE

http://www.4shared.com/dir/27754666/e6c77ffc/sharing.html

Edited January 19, 2010 by PAL 07

[PAL 07]

HARJAS,(copy and paste queen)

Your interpretation of this shabad (below)is incorrect - this shows your lack of the deeper understanding of Gurbani - chaturbuj here has different meaning.

with respect you can't just look at Gurbani literaly you have to look at context which is determined by several factors which include historical events behind the shabad.

The fact of the matter is that God doesn't even have one arm never mind four - God has no form at all

ਕਿਆ ਜਪੁ ਕਿਆ ਤਪੁ ਕਿਆ ਬ੍ਰਤ ਪੂਜਾ ॥

Ki▫ā jap ki▫ā ṯap ki▫ā baraṯ pūjā.

What use is chanting, and what use is penance, fasting or devotional worship,

ਜਾ ਕੈ ਰਿਦੈ ਭਾਉ ਹੈ ਦੂਜਾ ॥੧॥

Jā kai riḏai bẖā▫o hai ḏūjā. ||1||

to one whose heart is filled with the love of duality? ||1||

ਰੇ ਜਨ ਮਨੁ ਮਾਧਉ ਸਿਉ ਲਾਈਐ ॥

Re jan man māḏẖa▫o si▫o lā▫ī▫ai.

O humble people, link your mind to the Lord.

ਚਤੁਰਾਈ ਨ ਚਤੁਰਭੁਜੁ ਪਾਈਐ ॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥

Cẖaṯurā▫ī na cẖaṯurbẖuj pā▫ī▫ai. Rahā▫o.

Through cleverness, the four-armed Lord is not obtained.

~SGGS Ji ang 324

Who is the four-armed Lord in Gurbani? I will give you a hint.

ਸੰਖ ਚਕ੍ਰ ਗਦਾ ਹੈ ਧਾਰੀ ਮਹਾ ਸਾਰਥੀ ਸਤਸੰਗਾ ॥੧੦॥

Sankẖ cẖakar gaḏā hai ḏẖārī mahā sārthī saṯsangā. ||10||

He carries the conch, the chakra and the war club; He is the Great Charioteer, who stays with His Saints. ||10||

ਪੀਤ ਪੀਤੰਬਰ ਤ੍ਰਿਭਵਣ ਧਣੀ ॥

Pīṯ pīṯambar ṯaribẖavaṇ ḏẖaṇī.

The Lord of yellow robes, the Master of the three worlds.

ਜਗੰਨਾਥੁ ਗੋਪਾਲੁ ਮੁਖਿ ਭਣੀ ॥

PLEASE LISTEN TO THE MEANINGS OF THE SHABADS YOU CITED FROM SANT GURBACHAN SINGH BINDRAVALE

http://www.4shared.com/dir/27754666/e6c77ffc/sharing.html

Jagannāth gopāl mukẖ bẖaṇī.

The Lord of the Universe, the Lord of the world; with my mouth, I chant His Name.

~SGGS Ji ang 1082

[HarjasDevi]

veer ji Singh2 writes:

"The verses are very clear.Do not find fault with translations."

Yet the shabad in context of which you have written is also saying below:

ਹਰਏ ਨਮਸਤੇ ਹਰਏ ਨਮਹ ॥

Har▫e namasṯe har▫e namah.

I bow to the Lord, I humbly bow to the Lord.

ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਕਰਤ ਨਹੀ ਦੁਖੁ ਜਮਹ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥

Har har karaṯ nahī ḏukẖ jamah. ||1|| rahā▫o.

Chanting the Name of the Lord, Har, Har, you will not be tormented by the Messenger of Death. ||1||Pause||

ਹਰਿ ਹਰਨਾਕਸ ਹਰੇ ਪਰਾਨ ॥

Har harnākẖas hare parān.

The Lord took the life of Harnaakhash,

ਅਜੈਮਲ ਕੀਓ ਬੈਕੁੰਠਹਿ ਥਾਨ ॥

Ajaimal kī▫o baikunṯẖėh thān.

and gave Ajaamal a place in heaven.

ਸੂਆ ਪੜਾਵਤ ਗਨਿਕਾ ਤਰੀ ॥

Sū▫ā paṛāvaṯ ganikā ṯarī.

Teaching a parrot to speak the Lord's Name, Ganika the prostitute was saved.

ਸੋ ਹਰਿ ਨੈਨਹੁ ਕੀ ਪੂਤਰੀ ॥੨॥

So har nainhu kī pūṯrī. ||2||

That Lord is the light of my eyes. ||2||

ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਕਰਤ ਪੂਤਨਾ ਤਰੀ ॥

Har har karaṯ pūṯnā ṯarī.

Chanting the Name of the Lord, Har, Har, Pootna was saved,

ਬਾਲ ਘਾਤਨੀ ਕਪਟਹਿ ਭਰੀ ॥

Bāl gẖāṯnī kaptahi bẖarī.

even though she was a deceitful child-killer.

ਸਿਮਰਨ ਦ੍ਰੋਪਦ ਸੁਤ ਉਧਰੀ ॥

Simran ḏaropaḏ suṯ uḏẖrī.

Contemplating the Lord, Dropadi was saved.

ਗਊਤਮ ਸਤੀ ਸਿਲਾ ਨਿਸਤਰੀ ॥੩॥

Ga▫ūṯam saṯī silā nisṯarī. ||3||

Gautam's wife, turned to stone, was saved. ||3||

ਕੇਸੀ ਕੰਸ ਮਥਨੁ ਜਿਨਿ ਕੀਆ ॥

Kesī kans mathan jin kī▫ā.

The Lord, who killed Kaysee and Kans,

ਜੀਅ ਦਾਨੁ ਕਾਲੀ ਕਉ ਦੀਆ ॥

Jī▫a ḏān kālī ka▫o ḏī▫ā.

gave the gift of life to Kali.

~SGGS Ji ang 874.

The Shabad comes from Bhagat Nam Deyv, a great 13th century Vaishnava sant. The LORD described in the bani, is Bhagavan Krishna, the incarnation of Hari. It is describing the Lila of the Lord who will liberate the world from the net of delusion which is Maya. But in other places bani says the God Himself has deluded us. The God Himself is Maya. It cannot be taken out of context.

*Who took the life of Harnaakhash who threatened to kill Prahlad? It was Vishnu avatar Narasingh the man-lion.

*Who gave the mahapaapi Brahmin Ajamal a place in heaven? Narayana, because on death-bed he called out name Narayan.

*What was going on with Pootna/Putana? Here is the background of the story and will explain entire pauri and all the jado tuna stuff and goddess of smallpox who killed children.

*Who saved dropadi's honor? Bhagavan Krishna

*Who killed the demons Kaysee and kans? Bhagavan Krishna

The Lord being described here is unmistakably Krishna, not AKAAL. And the adventures being described all come from Puranic and Shastric literature.

After consulting with his demoniac ministers, Kamsa instructed a witch named Putana, who knew the black art of killing small children by ghastly sinful methods, to kill all kinds of children in the cities, villages and pasturing grounds. Such witches can play their black art only where there is no chanting or hearing of the holy name of Krsna. It is said that wherever the chanting of the holy name of Krsna is done, even negligently, all bad elements--witches, ghosts, and dangerous calamities--immediately disappear... Actually there was no danger from the activities of Putana, despite her powers. Such witches are called khecari, which means they can fly in the sky. This black art of witchcraft is still practiced by some women in the remote northwestern side of India. They can transfer themselves from one place to another on the branch of an uprooted tree. Putana knew this witchcraft, and therefore she is described in the Bhagavatam as khecari.

Putana entered the county of Gokula, the residential quarter of Nanda Maharaja, without permission. Dressing herself just like a beautiful woman... The innocent cowherd women thought that she was a goddess of fortune appearing in Vrndavana with a lotus flower in her hand. It seemed to them that she had personally come to see Krsna, who is her husband. Because of her exquisite beauty, no one checked her movement, and therefore she freely entered the house of Nanda Maharaja. Putana, the killer of many, many children, found baby Krsna lying on a small bed, and she could at once perceive that the baby was hiding His unparalleled potencies. Putana thought, "This child is so powerful that He can destroy the whole universe immediately."

Putana's understanding is very significant. The Supreme Personality of Godhead, Krsna, is situated in everyone's heart. It is stated in the Bhagavad-gita that He gives one necessary intelligence, and He also causes one to forget...

Krsna showed the nature of a small baby and closed His eyes, as if to avoid the face of Putana. This closing of the eyes is interpreted and studied in different ways by the devotees. Some say that Krsna closed His eyes because He did not like to see the face of Putana, who had killed so many children and who had now come to kill Him. Others say that something extraordinary was being dictated to her, and in order to give her assurance, Krsna closed His eyes so that she would not be frightened. And yet others interpret in this way: Krsna appeared to kill the demons and give protection to the devotees, as it is stated in the Bhagavad-gita: paritranaya sadhunam vinasaya ca duskrtam. The first demon to be killed was a woman. According to Vedic rules, the killing of a woman, a brahmana, cows or, of a child is forbidden. Krsna was obliged to kill the demon Putana, and because the killing of a woman is forbidden according to Vedic Sastra, He could not help but close His eyes...

Putana had smeared a very powerful poison on her breasts, and immediately after taking the baby on her lap, she pushed her breastly nipple within His mouth. She was hoping that as soon as He would suck her breast, He would die... In other words, Krsna simultaneously sucked the milk from her breast and killed her by sucking out her life. Krsna is so merciful that because the demon Putana came to offer her breast-milk to Him, He fulfilled her desire and accepted her activity as motherly. But to stop her from further nefarious activities, He immediately killed her. And because the demon was killed by Krsna, she got liberation. Putana Killed

ਭੈਰਉ ਭੂਤ ਸੀਤਲਾ ਧਾਵੈ ॥

Bẖairo bẖūṯ sīṯlā ḏẖāvai.

One who chases after the god Bhairau, evil spirits and the goddess of smallpox,

ਖਰ ਬਾਹਨੁ ਉਹੁ ਛਾਰੁ ਉਡਾਵੈ ॥੧॥

Kẖar bāhan uho cẖẖār udāvai. ||1||

is riding on a donkey, kicking up the dust. ||1||

ਹਉ ਤਉ ਏਕੁ ਰਮਈਆ ਲੈਹਉ ॥

Ha▫o ṯa▫o ek rama▫ī▫ā laiha▫o.

I take only the Name of the One Lord.

ਆਨ ਦੇਵ ਬਦਲਾਵਨਿ ਦੈਹਉ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥

Ān ḏev baḏlāvan ḏaiha▫o. ||1|| rahā▫o.

I have given away all other gods in exchange for Him. ||1||Pause||

ਸਿਵ ਸਿਵ ਕਰਤੇ ਜੋ ਨਰੁ ਧਿਆਵੈ ॥

Siv siv karṯe jo nar ḏẖi▫āvai.

That man who chants "Shiva, Shiva", and meditates on him,

ਬਰਦ ਚਢੇ ਡਉਰੂ ਢਮਕਾਵੈ ॥੨॥

Baraḏ cẖadẖe da▫urū dẖamkāvai. ||2||

is riding on a bull, shaking a tambourine. ||2||

ਮਹਾ ਮਾਈ ਕੀ ਪੂਜਾ ਕਰੈ ॥

Mahā mā▫ī kī pūjā karai.

One who worships the Great Goddess Maya

ਨਰ ਸੈ ਨਾਰਿ ਹੋਇ ਅਉਤਰੈ ॥੩॥

Nar sai nār ho▫e a▫uṯarai. ||3||

will be reincarnated as a woman, and not a man. ||3||

ਤੂ ਕਹੀਅਤ ਹੀ ਆਦਿ ਭਵਾਨੀ ॥

Ŧū kahī▫aṯ hī āḏ bẖavānī.

You are called the Primal Goddess.

ਮੁਕਤਿ ਕੀ ਬਰੀਆ ਕਹਾ ਛਪਾਨੀ ॥੪॥

Mukaṯ kī barī▫ā kahā cẖẖapānī. ||4||

At the time of liberation, where will you hide then? ||4||

ਗੁਰਮਤਿ ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮ ਗਹੁ ਮੀਤਾ ॥

Gurmaṯ rām nām gahu mīṯā.

Follow the Guru's Teachings, and hold tight to the Lord's Name, O friend.

ਪ੍ਰਣਵੈ ਨਾਮਾ ਇਉ ਕਹੈ ਗੀਤਾ ॥੫॥੨॥੬॥

Paraṇvai nāmā i▫o kahai gīṯā. ||5||2||6||

Thus prays Naam Dayv, and so says the Gita as well. ||5||2||6||

~SGGS Ji ang 874

Does Gurbani not also say in another place that people call on the One Lord by the Naam Shiva, Shiva?

This bani is indisputably from Vaishnava Sampradaya perspective because it is pointing out the preeminance of Naam, Gita, and the Lord HariKrishna. And for this reason, as per Vaishnav Mat, the Shaktas and Shaivas are being corrected that the only practices and Lord worthy is Bhagavan and Nama japa. The correction is being made for jado tuna people who use tantras and mantras to manipulate powers of Mayajog and evil spirits. If you studied Vaishnavism at all you would understand that Mayajog is also one of Bhagavan Krishna's powers. Which explains the other verse in bani stating that the Lord is Himself Maya.

Using logic, what Guru's teachings was Bhagat Nam Deyv referring to in bhagat bani? Hint, it was not Satguru Nanak Dev Ji. Namdev's Guru was Visoba. And the fact that this bani is part of Gurbani reflects the truth of the teaching and the universality of the truth. In the Kalyug as per Gita teaching, the only means of mukti is by Satguru and Nama Jap. The One Lord is permeating the Das Avataray as well as Gurbani vakia. I do not see where the teaching of Adi Shakti Devi and Sarbloh shastars is to be rejected on the basis of these tuuks. You do not understand what is being said here.

There is a huge history of sectarian in-fighting between the various sampradayas, especially the Shaivas and the Vaishnavas. And we could get entangled in endless debate over it. But the simplest resolution is as I already pointed out, the qualified Advaitvaad which explains the Pre-eminence of the Primal Unity who is One without a second. For this reason, Gurbani is reflecting the same description of devatay as the Vaishnav sampradaya, in that they are called as demi-gods, referring to subordination, or partial opulences of the One Bhagavan. It's a very specific and unmistakable philosophical school. But on the other hand, in the qualified Advaita perspective, there is no division. The division is perceived only because we are in duality and not turiya consciousness. The bhagat bani of Naam Deyv was referring to the story of Krishna nearly killed by the goddess of smallpox. So you have to understand not just the little pieces.

ਆਪੇ ਸਕਤਾ ਆਪੇ ਸੁਰਤਾ ਸਕਤੀ ਜਗਤੁ ਪਰੋਵਹਿ ॥

Āpe sakṯā āpe surṯā sakṯī jagaṯ parovėh.

You Yourself are All-powerful, and You Yourself are the Intuitive Knower.

The whole world is strung on the Power of Your Shakti.~SGGS Ji ang 1242

Whose shakti? Who is Shakti?

[HarjasDevi]

PAL 07 writes:

HARJAS,(copy and paste queen)

Your interpretation of this shabad (below)is incorrect - this showsyour lack of the deeper understanding of Gurbani - chaturbuj here hasdifferent meaning.

with respect you can't just look at Gurbani literaly you have to lookat context which is determined by several factors which includehistorical events behind the shabad.

The fact of the matter is that God doesn't even have one arm never mind four - God has no form at all

Veer ji, is that really a way to talk to someone? What exactly is the different meaning of chaturbuj? We can't look at the Gurbani literally in your case, because the entire pauri on page 1082 is a literal PRAISE of the God in Das Avtaray. You say it is not literally 4 arms. Yet is says clearly, 4 arms. Is it also not really blue skin, murali the flute player either? Is it really not Vrindavan and gopis? Is it really not? Then what really is it? please?

It is true that the God is beyond form in Nirguna. But all the creation is roop of the Lord as well. Does not Gurbani say the Lord is niragun AND saragun? If the Lord is saragun, that means there is a form. Now, as to form, what is a form? A form is only a representation, a shadow of something deeper and more intrinsic. When I look at a human being, I only see the face, the flesh, the physicality. The body is your FORM. But YOU are not your body. YOU are something the eye cannot see.

[The Khalsa Fauj]

Harjas Kaur, all the shabads you are bringing up are given proper arths of in Baldev Singh's book. It is called Gurmat Gyan Da Chanan. Get is from Lahore book shop or other place if available in your area.

[PAL 07]

THANKYOU FOR REDUCING THE JUNK IN YOUR POST, THEREFORE MAKING ME DECIDE TO READ IT

THE SHABADS YOU PROVIDED AS REFERENCE TO YOUR POSTULATION ARE INCORRECT AND IAM POINTING THAT OUT IF YOU LISTENED TO THE AUDIO.

IF YOUR REFERENCES ARE INCORRECT THEN YOUR THEORY AUTOMATICALLY BECOMES INCORRECT. THEREFORE I WAS CORRECT IN SAYING THAT GOD DOESN'T HAVE FOUR ARMS AS YOU SEEM TO THINK, AND GOD ISN'T SOME CHARIOTEER LIVING IN KURUKSHETRA - THIS SHABAD IS A METAPHOR, THE ANTREEV ARTH ARE THAT GOD PROTECTS HIS SAINTS.

YOU ALSO HAVE TO ACCEPT THAT THE SARGUN AKAAL IS ONLY TEMPORARY AND HIS REAL FORM IS NIRGUN......NIRGUN VAHEGURUU HAS NO ARMS NEVER MIND 4 AS YOU SEEM TO THINK......HOWEVER IN SARGUN FORM HIS ARMS COULD BE INFINITE LOOK AT A CENTIPEDE CREATURE, IT HAS HUNDRED LEGS.....LETS SAY ON EARTH THERE ARE 100 THOUSAND CENTIPEDES THAT WOULD MEAN THAT GOD HAS 100000x100 LEGS...BIT OF FOOD FOR THOUGHT FOR YOU.

NEVERTHELESS YOUR NOT AS INTELLIGENT AS YOU APPEAR ON THIS SITE AND AGAIN YOU KEEP ON POSTING TONS OF IRRELEVANT STUFF AND YOU APPEAR CONFUSED AND CRAZY...WHY IS YOUR AVATAAR A PICTURE OF DEVI THIS IS MANMAT AS SIKHS ARE NOT DEVOTEES OF DEVI, AGAIN THIS SHOWS THAT YOU ARE LACKING BASIC KNOWLEDGE OF SIKHISM.........

I THINK YOUR BETTER OF ON SOME HINDUISM FORUM

Edited January 19, 2010 by PAL 07

[laalsingh]

The Lord being described here is unmistakably Krishna, not AKAAL.

Harjas ji, you are great in rest of the post. But isn't Krishna the One in Vaishnav mat? Same One is Shiva in Shaivitism, Allah in Islam, (thougth not mentioned in Gurbani, Jesus in Christanity).

ਆਪੇ ਸਕਤਾ ਆਪੇ ਸੁਰਤਾ ਸਕਤੀ ਜਗਤੁ ਪਰੋਵਹਿ ॥

Āpe sakṯā āpe surṯā sakṯī jagaṯ parovėh.

You Yourself are All-powerful, and You Yourself are the Intuitive Knower.

The whole world is strung on the Power of Your Shakti.~SGGS Ji ang 1242

Whose shakti? Who is Shakti?

Shakti is power of this universe, but He is power holder or creator of this creation (including Shakti).

As you said, Guru Granth is boad of mukti. Shakti is the power, holding this illusion in place (of course by Lord Himself).

So if you want mukti, why worship Shakti?

[Balbir Singh]

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!

Dear all and PAL 07 Jee!

Blessed are Human Avtaars who come to know Hari Naam Simran in spite of receiving birth in a dumb dummy's tabbar.

*****

Dear Singh2 Jee!

I hope you remember the result of preaching wrong translations as in the case of Professor Darshan Singh Jee Raagee.

Experiencing one word from Gurdev is not possible without true Jap, what to say about a complete Vaak.

Thanks for referring true Guru's Vaaks in original also. This is the truth through these Vaaks as God is explaining it to me.

ਮਹਾ ਮਾਈ ਕੀ ਪੂਜਾ ਕਰੈ ॥

mahaa maa-ee kee poojaa karai.

Mahaa Maaee's pooja does.

ਨਰ ਸੈ ਨਾਰਿ ਹੋਇ ਅਉਤਰੈ ॥੩॥

nar sai naar ho-ay a-utarai. ||3||

From Nar becoming Naari liberates.

ਤੂ ਕਹੀਅਤ ਹੀ ਆਦਿ ਭਵਾਨੀ ॥

too kahee-at hee aad bhavaanee.

You by narrating Aadi Bhavaanee.

ਮੁਕਤਿ ਕੀ ਬਰੀਆ ਕਹਾ ਛਪਾਨੀ ॥੪॥

mukat kee baree-aa kahaa chhapaanee. ||4||

The technic of liberation where is hiding.

*****

Harjas Kaur Jee!

Hearty thanks for your posts. Godly tastes from the deep memory came up.

Balbir Singh

[Mekhane'ch Jannat]

THEREFORE I WAS CORRECT IN SAYING THAT GOD DOESN'T HAVE FOUR ARMS AS YOU SEEM TO THINK, AND GOD ISN'T SOME CHARIOTEER LIVING IN KURUKSHETRA - THIS SHABAD IS A METAPHOR,

You are making a prior assumption that the Hindus before the Guru's did not understand the metaphorical significance of their own religious images. And the Guru's came along and showed them the true 'metaphorical' meaning of their images that they were ignorantly worshipping. Does the arrogance of this stance not strike you? To presume hindus knew or understood nothing of the deeper meanings relating to the One reality hidden in their religious images and icons?

I prefer to think that, as i have said before, that the Gurus came to renew the old tradition and invest it with its original, primordial significance. They did not aim to create anything new but to make available to humanity the original primordial revalation. Which has to be made in accordance with the psyche of the society then existing.

[shaheediyan]

"The Lord being described here is unmistakably Krishna, not AKAAL. And the adventures being described all come from Puranic and Shastric literature."

I think the point Bhenji, is that the lord being described is Akaal - as Akaal is the true essence behind Sri Krishna Ji.

I agree with Laal Singhs above post.

[PAL 07]

mekkajanat - it is actually hinduism that states devi devtas dont have numerous arms and they they are metaphorical. you also said

"You are making a prior assumption that the Hindus before the Guru's did not understand the metaphorical significance of their own religious images"

MY RESPONSE TO THIS IS "COMPLETE RUBBISH" - I WAS ONLY RESPONDING TO HARJAS POST REGARDING INACCURACIES SHE HAS IN QUOTING GURBANI.....HONESTLY I WAS MAKING ANY ASSUMPTIONS ABOUT ANYTHING .

you also said

"I prefer to think that, as i have said before, that the Gurus came to renew the old tradition and invest it with its original, primordial significance. They did not aim to create anything new but to make available to humanity the original primordial revalation."

And i agree

[singh2]

Quotes which DG lovers use against me are now being used against them to promote devi worship and avtarvaad. That is why I say, lets get proper arths of Gurbani done. But no, hatred for anti-DGs is blinding you guys. As a result, Sikh faith is being attacked from all around. In the end, truth will win but this is just making the process long.

Dasam Granth sahib is not the subject of discussion here. Keep your hatred for Dasam granth sahib to yourself. do not spread that here.

[singh2]

The Lord being described here is unmistakably Krishna, not AKAAL. And the adventures being described all come from Puranic and Shastric literature.

Lord is always akaal for sikhs and not krishna.