Is A Yuga A Measure Of Historical Time?

[Kaljug]

Fateh!

A question that Dalsingh posed in a previous thread about Dasam Granth and the existence of Devatas got me wondering what Gurbani means when it talks about yugas.

If the devatas are mythological gods, does this neccesarily imply that a yuga is an era of mythological time? If so, what does Gurbani mean when it says that Satguru was present though all the 4 yugas?

If the yugas are actual measures of time, when did they begin and when did they end? If they refer to actual history, does this imply then that the devatas who were worshipped in those yugas, were actual beings? If so, where is the historical evidence for the existence of these devatas and the demonic asuras that they fought?

What do you think?

Regards,

K.

[SAadmin]

Yugas started when this whole sargun parsara came into existence cannot be limited to the time. Satyug then Dwapar then Treta then Kalyug yugas is known as one cycle..after kalyug parlou comes everything gets merge back into ishvar and another age starts- satyug, dvapara, treta and kalyug thats why guru maharaj mentions - ek shiv paie ek gaye ek pher paie ram chandar krishan kaie avtar bhi anek hai ||. But when mahaparloa comes all this sargun parsara merges back into vahiguroo nirankar- ikongkar resosance - sun samadh of nirgun bhram.

[shaheediyan]

I used to ponder over these sorts of questions in the past - but Gurbani itself has changed my perception of the importance and relevance of these matters:

ਇਕ ਘੜੀ ਨ ਮਿਲਤੇ ਤਾ ਕਲਿਜੁਗੁ ਹੋਤਾ ॥

For me, any other understanding of the word Kalyug is irrelevant - especially for Sikhs of Gurbani - I have obviously only looked at an element of the set question - but its all relevant. Looking for scientific answers simply distracts one from the 'purpose' of the Sikh marg.

[SAadmin]

Exactly shahaheediyan, all these yugas are historical as well state of mind depending on one's surti. Gurbani supports meta reality based on your surti, and beautiful quote from gurbani posted by shaheediyan veer is witness of this.

[dalsingh101]

I don't know. I'm beginning to think yugas represent metaphorical concepts of what I would describe as "eras". The underlying principle behind the concept is essentially mankind's descent from more innocent or "purer" times when spirituality/religion played a large part in societies actions.

But sometimes I wonder when I read about human sacrifices being common in many societies of the past all around the globe. Can we neatly conceptualise the past as a purer time when things like that happened and were a part of societal practice?

[dalsingh101]

An afterthought. Manmukhness has led to a situation where today the world may be in serious danger due to ecological factors (i.e. the effects of global warming, which if true and not reversed WILL lead to the deaths of millions if not billions in the future).

So we have to temper our understanding of the progress we have made in modern times with this understanding. We can really end up in a type of kaljug that none of us could ignore essentially.

Curiously I saw this article about religion and science today that may be of interest to people following this thread:

http://sikhchic.com/article-detail.php?id=990&cat=12

Edited August 24, 2009 by dalsingh101

[singh2]

Guru sahib writes

ਤੂ ਕਰਤਾ ਆਪਿ ਅਗਣਤੁ ਹੈ ਸਭੁ ਜਗੁ ਵਿਚਿ ਗਣਤੈ ॥:

Too karataa aap aganat hai sabh jag vich ganatai:

You Yourself, O Creator, is incalculable, while the entire world is within the realm of calculation

(ang 314).

[dalsingh101]

I used to ponder over these sorts of questions in the past - but Gurbani itself has changed my perception of the importance and relevance of these matters:

ਇਕ ਘੜੀ ਨ ਮਿਲਤੇ ਤਾ ਕਲਿਜੁਗੁ ਹੋਤਾ ॥

For me, any other understanding of the word Kalyug is irrelevant - especially for Sikhs of Gurbani - I have obviously only looked at an element of the set question - but its all relevant. Looking for scientific answers simply distracts one from the 'purpose' of the Sikh marg.

Could you post the ang that this tuk is from please?

[The Khalsa Fauj]

Yugs are states of mind as per Gurmat. Yugs as time periods are man made and not the Gurmat philosophy. Gurmat rejects such thoughts. Gurbani says:

ਸੋਈ ਚੰਦੁ ਚੜਹਿ ਸੇ ਤਾਰੇ ਸੋਈ ਦਿਨੀਅਰੁ ਤਪਤ ਰਹੈ ॥ ਸਾ ਧਰਤੀ ਸੋ ਪਉਣੁ ਝੁਲਾਰੇ ਜੁਗ ਜੀਅ ਖੇਲੇ ਥਾਵ ਕੈਸੇ ॥੧॥ ਜੀਵਨ ਤਲਬ ਨਿਵਾਰਿ ॥ ਹੋਵੈ ਪਰਵਾਣਾ ਕਰਹਿ ਧਿਙਾਣਾ ਕਲਿ ਲਖਣ ਵੀਚਾਰਿ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ ਕਿਤੈ ਦੇਸਿ ਨ ਆਇਆ ਸੁਣੀਐ ਤੀਰਥ ਪਾਸਿ ਨ ਬੈਠਾ ॥ ਦਾਤਾ ਦਾਨੁ ਕਰੇ ਤਹ ਨਾਹੀ ਮਹਲ ਉਸਾਰਿ ਨ ਬੈਠਾ ॥੨॥ {Guru Granth Sahib Ji, Pg. 902}

[singh2]

Yugs are states of mind as per Gurmat. Yugs as time periods are man made and not the Gurmat philosophy. Gurmat rejects such thoughts. Gurbani says:

ਸੋਈ ਚੰਦੁ ਚੜਹਿ ਸੇ ਤਾਰੇ ਸੋਈ ਦਿਨੀਅਰੁ ਤਪਤ ਰਹੈ ॥ ਸਾ ਧਰਤੀ ਸੋ ਪਉਣੁ ਝੁਲਾਰੇ ਜੁਗ ਜੀਅ ਖੇਲੇ ਥਾਵ ਕੈਸੇ ॥੧॥ ਜੀਵਨ ਤਲਬ ਨਿਵਾਰਿ ॥ ਹੋਵੈ ਪਰਵਾਣਾ ਕਰਹਿ ਧਿਙਾਣਾ ਕਲਿ ਲਖਣ ਵੀਚਾਰਿ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ ਕਿਤੈ ਦੇਸਿ ਨ ਆਇਆ ਸੁਣੀਐ ਤੀਰਥ ਪਾਸਿ ਨ ਬੈਠਾ ॥ ਦਾਤਾ ਦਾਨੁ ਕਰੇ ਤਹ ਨਾਹੀ ਮਹਲ ਉਸਾਰਿ ਨ ਬੈਠਾ ॥੨॥ {Guru Granth Sahib Ji, Pg. 902}

Gurus were born in India and they have used Indian terminology in gurbani. The basic message is contemplation on supreme Lord.

[The Khalsa Fauj]

Gurbani is Aad Sach Jugaad Sach

It is not bound to India or another location. It is not bound to mythical stories either.

[SAadmin]

We are not claiming that gurbani is limited to time or age. What we talking here, gurbani mentions yugas, at some places its given an state of mind as shaheediyan pointed out earlier, but at other places yugas are referred as historical time. One simply cannot ignore this fact because its linked with previous avtars, otherwise with that mindset which its only referred to state of mind one will find their buddi pretty inconsistent and contradictory when they read the following gurbani tuk:

ਸਰੀ ਗੁਰੂ ਸਾਹਿਬੁ ਸਭ ਊਪਰਿ ॥ ਕਰੀ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾ ਸਤਜੁਗਿ ਜਿਨਿ ਧ੍ਰੂ ਪਰਿ ॥

ਸ੍ਰੀ ਪ੍ਰਹਲਾਦ ਭਗਤ ਉਧਰੀਅੰ ॥ ਹਸੋ ਕਮਲ ਮਾਥੇ ਪਰ ਧਰੀਅੰ ॥

ਤਜੁਗਿ ਤੈ ਮਾਣਿਓ ਛਲਿਓ ਬਲਿ ਬਾਵਨ ਭਾਇਓ ॥

sathajug thai maaniou shhaliou bal baavan bhaaeiou ||

In the Golden Age of Sat Yuga, You were pleased to deceive Baal the king, in the form of a dwarf.

7 Sava-yay (praise of Guru Nanak Kal

ਤ੍ਰੇਤੈ ਤੈ ਮਾਣਿਓ ਰਾਮੁ ਰਘੁਵੰਸੁ ਕਹਾਇਓ ॥

thraethai thai maaniou raam raghuvans kehaaeiou ||

In the Silver Age of Traytaa Yuga, You were called Raam of the Raghu dynasty.

8 Sava-yay (praise of Guru Nanak Kal

ਦੁਆਪੁਰਿ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨ ਮੁਰਾਰਿ ਕੰਸੁ ਕਿਰਤਾਰਥੁ ਕੀਓ ॥

dhuaapur kirasan muraar kans kirathaarathh keeou ||

In the Brass Age of Dwaapur Yuga, You were Krishna; You killed Mur the demon and saved Kans.

8 Sava-yay (praise of Guru Nanak Kal

ਉਗ੍ਰਸੈਣ ਕਉ ਰਾਜੁ ਅਭੈ ਭਗਤਹ ਜਨ ਦੀਓ ॥

ougrasain ko raaj abhai bhagatheh jan dheeou ||

You blessed Ugrasain with a kingdom, and You blessed Your humble devotees with fearlessness.

9 Sava-yay (praise of Guru Nanak Kal

ਕਲਿਜੁਗਿ ਪ੍ਰਮਾਣੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰੁ ਅੰਗਦੁ ਅਮਰੁ ਕਹਾਇਓ ॥

kalijug pramaan naanak gur angadh amar kehaaeiou ||

In the Iron Age, the Dark Age of Kali Yuga, You are known and accepted as Guru Nanak, Guru Angad and Guru Amar Das.

9 Sava-yay (praise of Guru Nanak Kal

ਸ੍ਰੀ ਗੁਰੂ ਰਾਜੁ ਅਬਿਚਲੁ ਅਟਲੁ ਆਦਿ ਪੁਰਖਿ ਫੁਰਮਾਇਓ ॥੭॥

sree guroo raaj abichal attal aadh purakh furamaaeiou ||7||

The sovereign rule of the Great Guru is unchanging and permanent, according the Command of the Primal Lord God. ||7||

[dalsingh101]

I don't take them too literally myself.

[singh2]

I don't take them too literally myself.

Gurbani is written in human language. The message is universal but references will be there of the framework.

Moreover prahlad is cited as Gurmukh in Gurbani. One cann't deny that.

[The Khalsa Fauj]

Prehlaad was Gurmukh who believes in the Timesless Creator Lord and not some devi devta. Bhagat Prehlaad rejected Gaaetree mantar as per Gurbani and had faith in only formless Master.

I don't agree with those arths of Bhatt Swayas but I don't have any desire to explain or get into proper arths either.

[amardeep]

thats because you dont have any arth that fits with Gurbani..

[amardeep]

read the first vaar in Bhai Gurdass vaaran

[singh2]

Prehlaad was Gurmukh who believes in the Timesless Creator Lord and not some devi devta. Bhagat Prehlaad rejected Gaaetree mantar as per Gurbani and had faith in only formless Master.

I don't agree with those arths of Bhatt Swayas but I don't have any desire to explain or get into proper arths either.

Not only prahlad there are many others such as Raj janak, balmik, dhru cited as Gurmukhs in gurbani. Let us stop this hate agenda.

[dalsingh101]

Look the simple fact that some people were God centred prior to Guru Nanak's birth could only be denied by the most kuttarh, ignorant brother. Maybe that is what is what is being implied with the references to Gurmukhs in previous yugs?

[The Khalsa Fauj]

thats because you dont have any arth that fits with Gurbani..

We sure do. We just haven't done a written teeka.

read the first vaar in Bhai Gurdass vaaran

We have arths of that too. We have them in video format. I will work to put them in written format some time in the future.

Not only prahlad there are many others such as Raj janak, balmik, dhru cited as Gurmukhs in gurbani. Let us stop this hate agenda.

Oh sure! You are free to stop the hate agenda. Will you?

Raam Japao Jeea Aisay Aisay

Dharoo Prehlaad Japeo Har Jaisay

You agree?

[Laadli Fauj]

maybe jugs are different existences? a whole different universe parallel/intersecting universe type thing