Moving Whilst Doing Simran

[dalsingh101]

I've noticed a tendency towards what I can only describe as rocking back and forth slightly during more intense periods of simran, especially when 'simraning' along to musical compositions.

Anyone else experience this? Is it an undesirable practice that I should try and eliminate?

Plus, is there a specific name for the type of simran where one steadily increases the speed at which one repeats the mantar, till we get to a really really fast pace and have some sort of have a mental climax?

If doing simran leads to feelings of pleasure and well being afterwards, am I using it for selfish, self satisfaction purposes?

Feedback appreciated.

Edited September 24, 2010 by dalsingh101

[Gyan Parbodh]

I tend to rock back and forth when reading bani, similar to these muslims kids in this video

[dalsingh101]

Cool, thanks for the vid GP.

I don't think I do it as pronounced as that (I think....)

lol

[Silence]

If doing simran leads to feelings of pleasure and well being afterwards, am I using it for selfish, self satisfaction purposes?

Feedback appreciated.

ਕਬੀਰ ਡਗਮਗ ਕਿਆ ਕਰਹਿ ਕਹਾ ਡੁਲਾਵਹਿ ਜੀਉ ॥

Kabīr dagmag ki▫ā karahi kahā dulāvėh jī▫o.

Kabeer, why do you stumble? Why does your soul waver?

ਸਰਬ ਸੂਖ ਕੋ ਨਾਇਕੋ ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮ ਰਸੁ ਪੀਉ ॥੩॥

Sarab sūkẖ ko nā▫iko rām nām ras pī▫o. ||3||

He is the Lord of all comforts and peace; drink in the Sublime Essence of the Lord's Name. ||3||

[Xylitol]

not moving the body can lead to deeper spiritual states i feel. however, i also do that sometimes b/c it feels nice and helps with concentration, especially when i'm too antsy to still properly still.

[SURYADEV]

If you are talking about AKJ stle simran and the body movement there. Then I think its down to the technique used. The sas-gras method if used at a rapid pace shows quite pronounced body movement or head bopping like movements. Its all down to the inhalation/exhalation of the chest that shows the body moving up and down. Then to help get into the rhythm I believe you conciously exagerate the movement to bring about a kind of 'trance' - if you want to call it that.

[dalsingh101]

The sas-gras method if used at a rapid pace shows quite pronounced body movement or head bopping like movements.

I've heard that AKJers like to keep stuff top secret but can you go into more detail about the sas-gras method?

http://www.youtube.com/user/KhalsaSoulja#p/a/u/1/5fQuYMBTav8

[SURYADEV]

Gras = inhalation

Sas = exhalation

A typical way of performing is by saying WAHE on the in breath and GURU on the out breath. Try it and you will see yourself naturally starting to move up and down when you pick up some speed.

Or you can say WAHEGURU on in and same again on the out breath; or even saying it several times on in/out breath.

This is pretty much well known technique used in Dharmic religions and yogic meditaion. There shouldn't be any mystique/secrecy about it. Unless AKJ teach another hitherto unknown method.

My personal feeling for the body moving for most people is that its the natural desire to dance/move/excercise, so the mind can release endorphins - the feel good drug. A bit like Hare Krishna, Gospel singers and pagan people do. Dance is seen as a natural form of worship. But in conventional sikhi dance is frowned upon. So ptrobs one tries to do as much as one can without being declared a manmukh by fellow sikhs. hence the head bopping.

[SURYADEV]

NAyone remeber this from school assembleies?....

Lord of the Dance

I danced in the morning when the world was begun

I danced in the moon and the stars and the sun

I came down from heaven and I danced on the earth

At bethelehem I had my birth:

Dance then, wherever you may be

I am the lord of the dance, said he!

And I'll lead you all, wherever you may be

And I'll lead you all in the dance, said he!

(...Lead you all in the dance, said he!)

I danced for the scribe and the pharisee

But they would not dance and they wouldn't follow me

I danced for the fishermen, for peter james and john

They came with me and the dance went on:

Dance then, wherever you may be

I am the lord of the dance, said he!

And I'll lead you all, wherever you may be

And I'll lead you all in the dance, said he!

(...Lead you all in the dance, said he!)

I danced on the sabbath and I healed the lame

The holy people said it was a shame!

They whipped me and stripped me and hung me high

And left me there on a cross to die!

Dance then, wherever you may be

I am the lord of the dance, said he!

And I'll lead you all, wherever you may be

And I'll lead you all in the dance, said he!

(...Lead you all in the dance, said he!)

I danced on a friday when the sky turned black

It's hard to dance with the devil on your back

They buried my body and they thought I'd gone

But I am the dance and I still go on!

Dance then, wherever you may be

I am the lord of the dance, said he!

And I'll lead you all, wherever you may be

And I'll lead you all in the dance, said he!

(...Lead you all in the dance, said he!)

They cut me down but I leap up high

I am the life that will never never die!

I'll live in you if you'll live in me

I am the lord of the dance, said he!

Dance then, wherever you may be

I am the lord of the dance, said he!

And I'll lead you all, wherever you may be

And I'll lead you all in the dance, said he!

[from http://lyrics.doheth.co.uk]

[shaheediyan]

Lol, yes , I remember that hymn from my Junior School assemblies, great fun!

Dancing - movement - is a lower form of meditation (but a form of meditation none the less). Remember Swami Parmanands lectures - to become one with Nirguna Parmatama - we must too become nirgun - we must become free of the 5 indrian.

The highest and last sense is hearing (internal) - this can therefore be classed as the highest form of bhagti imho - before one is freed from the senses and becomes 'one'.

[SURYADEV]

Lol, yes , I remember that hymn from my Junior School assemblies, great fun!

Dancing - movement - is a lower form of meditation (but a form of meditation none the less). Remember Swami Parmanands lectures - to become one with Nirguna Parmatama - we must too become nirgun - we must become free of the 5 indrian.

The highest and last sense is hearing (internal) - this can therefore be classed as the highest form of bhagti imho - before one is freed from the senses and becomes 'one'.

Can you explain the last part?

Does that mean that listening to bani/nam is greater than speaking?

[dalsingh101]

Lol, yes , I remember that hymn from my Junior School assemblies, great fun!

Dancing - movement - is a lower form of meditation (but a form of meditation none the less). Remember Swami Parmanands lectures - to become one with Nirguna Parmatama - we must too become nirgun - we must become free of the 5 indrian.

The highest and last sense is hearing (internal) - this can therefore be classed as the highest form of bhagti imho - before one is freed from the senses and becomes 'one'.

I thought you was going to post the lectures?

What happened?

[shaheediyan]

Just converted them today to MP3 - hopefully should be up in the next few days... low recordings now, anyone know how I can increase the volume..?

JB, speaking is an external sound - i.e. we recite Gurmantar with tongue. When we recite it from throat, heart, naval etc it becomes internalised (higher bhagti/simran) - but is still a 'sound'. Those blessed and destined few, will eventually even go past the stage of 'sound' - including anhad shabad. This is where the 'tools' have served their purpose and the ultimate objective achieved.

Edited September 27, 2010 by shaheediyan

[dalsingh101]

Just converted them today to MP3 - hopefully should be up in the next few days... low recordings now, anyone know how I can increase the volume..?

JB, speaking is an external sound - i.e. we recite Gurmantar with tongue. When we recite it from throut, heart, naval etc it becomes internalised (higher bhagti/simran) - but is still a 'sound'. Those blessed and destined few, will eventually even go past the stage of 'sound' - including anhad shabad. This is where the 'tools' have served their purpose and the ultimate objective achieved.

Great.

Do you think that it is better to repeat Gurmantar mentally then. Different days and even 'audio supports' seem to impact on the desire to vocalise or internally repeat? I presume the aim should be to eventually eliminate the audio support and do mantar without? Right now I have a few mp3s of various styles of simran I use to prop me up most of the time.

Sometimes, it feels as if one is actually trying to drown out thought waves, with the mantar? Also I noticed immediately after some good 'crescendo' AKJ style simran their is a feeling of elevation. The concentration on the fast repetition serves very well as a block to other thought.

I'm wondering if a particular mental/psychological/emotional state is required to do simran correctly? What EXACTLY is meant by "mann rakhiya bhao" for instance?

From Sikhnet:

Also, is the disparity between simran experiences normal? Sometimes I seem to, well, pretty much rush through, very distracted. I know it is called abiyaas so maybe this is all practice and development at this stage? The Gurdwara on a busy day is a no go, for all the distractions. It's like you need a sound proof room?

Will ask someone about boosting the vol level on your mp3.

ps - what are the 5 indrian?

Edited September 26, 2010 by dalsingh101

[shaheediyan]

Please refer to the numerous posts on simran posted here by N30 and others - i.e. Mahapursh advice. You will get an idea of the progressive stages of simran.

We recite externally as a first step, as we do not have control over our thoughts - so it is in fact a form of distraction - a tool to be used against our wavering mind and panj chor. The loud recitation gains our full focus.

Once one-mindedness is being achieved we slowly go to internalising to throat, heart, naval and so on.

It's not something you can be thinking about, or plan milestones for - these are progressions which occur purely with Gurus kirpa, they are out of our control. Gurus kirpa is gained from his gyaan and adopting his advice - prem - the key - is gained in the same way.

Personally - I find the most powerful tool to 'own' the mind - is to start by reciting (and doing vichaar alongside) on Mul Mantar. Do this for 15-20 mins, then go to simran.

With Simran - one practical method for internalising is e.g. to recite externally for say 10mins and then go silent, so as the the thoughts start coming, go external again for 10 mins then go silent. Eventually you will go 9 mins to 1 min, 8-2, 7-3, 5-5, 1-9, 0-10 etc.

You get the message I hope.

People who get fixated on methods, the tools, progress, results, evidence etc loose the game.

It's simply an exercise of love. The real question is... how do we attain that love.

[Mr Sardar]

I believe I have heard that from kundalani yogi the power of the kundalani (sepant) energy trapped in lower chakras can be freed by rocking back and forth. Muslims in madrassas believe rocking back and forth help to induce spirtual ecstasy.

But maybe you maybe like these lot : - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZO8HI884_zI&feature=related

Acquiring the ridhi sidhi of flight.

[jaikaara]

i have a habbit of doing mool mantar jap while taking my walk, what happens is the concentration is on the jap and i tend to walk faster and do not realise any pain.

[Mithar]

However you do Simran and Paath it is all good. Some people do Simran/Paath while sitting still while many even do it while walking. In India it is very common for Sikh farmers who get up in the early hours to do Paath/Simran while doing farming.