Triple Jhatka

[jaikaara]

no i havent veera , if u have info let me know

[dalsingh101]

Majority of sikhs who eat meat hardly care whether it is jhatka or halal.I have seen turbaned rich sikhs purchasing raw meat from halal shops despite the fact that there plenty of jhatka meat shops in that area.

I know what you are saying, I see keshdhari apnay in the halal shops all the time.

What you are saying is crazy though, people not being bothered to go to a jhatka shop over a jalal one....

[kdsingh80]

I know what you are saying, I see keshdhari apnay in the halal shops all the time.

What you are saying is crazy though, people not being bothered to go to a jhatka shop over a jalal one....

It looks to me that majority of sikhs are following sikhism as ritual rather than following it through heart.They don't care about anything whether it is against sikhism or not.I still remember When I was 13 and my grandfather died then our house was full of people on his dahaya and there were discussions about

many things.I heard some of my relatives from punjab saying"ki farak painda hai

jhatka yaa halal vich jaan te usdi jaani hi hai"

[jaikaara]

yea kd singh ji true, this is usual reply from sikh and hindus who pamper their taste buds to suck into a succulent kebab from karim's, the next point i put forward is if u were to die what would u prefer a massive heart attack or cancer ?

[kdsingh80]

u hit the nail kd singh saab, i had once been to mumbai, this was like 3 years ago, there was a popular 'rolls' chain, i had intended to get a franchise from them outside mumbai, i was happy the guy was a singh but this happiness dint last too long..forget happiness i was pained.

i asked him how does he obtain jhatka for his non veg rolls, he looked at me and said " r u nuts ??? tenu business karna hai? r u sure ? will u be able to do business with these jhatka halal theories..i dont do business that way..of course i dont eat beef but i dont care abt jhatka halal..if i get a customer who asks me if the chicken is halal or jhatka, i will take a look at him and if he seems a hindu i shall tell him jhatka if a muslim it would be halala...simple ...i mean business "

I guess that person is typical Indian businessman of India as it is golden rule of Businessmen to keep their religion out of business.Forget about Jhatka or halal You don't even know whether the meat you are eating at restaurent is of Goat,sheep ,pig,cow,buffaloe or any other animal.It is also one of the reason that devout Indian muslims don't eat meat in hotels or restaurents owned by non muslims

[kdsingh80]

yea kd singh ji true, this is usual reply from sikh and hindus who pamper their taste buds to suck into a succulent kebab from karim's, the next point i put forward is if u were to die what would u prefer a massive heart attack or cancer ?

Well it is also the fault of Gurdwara's and Hindu organisations not to speak about this issue and gifting meat industry to muslims.Lower caste hindu's are very much in this job but unfortunately no one speak for them.Is it any wonder

That RSS and BJP hardly get votes 0f lower castes

[jaikaara]

both of them are useless in these matters, i been meeting khatiks (hindu butchers, who are strict with jhatka maryada) those guys are giving up their profession because they are looked down upon.

[dalsingh101]

Well it is also the fault of Gurdwara's and Hindu organisations not to speak about this issue and gifting meat industry to muslims.

I'm not surprised. I guarantee we'd have untold chagra if anyone tried speaking of meat in a Gurdwara.

[Only five]

Jhatka stores? This is funny. The whole purpose of jhatka is for getting better at clean kills, being able to take the site of killing, and gutting the animal yourself, so you don't punk out at the site of organs hanging out, but here Sikhs are going to run jhatka shops for the taste buds. If these shops want to be effecient and produce at it's maximum then get a machine that looks like a Nihang Singh and just place the goat before it. Have a recording that says Bole So Nihal Sat Sri Akal after it does each animal.

Jhatka stores are just an insult to the whole tradition.

Isn't the Sikhi of today already in a crisis and is in need of it's warroirs to fight for it today? How many goats does it take to gain this warroir spirit and actually apply it?

Last question, how many Jhatka sections did Sant Baba Jarnail Singh ji Khalsa go through, before taking on the Indian Army? Last one, also how many did the Singhs go through that stood with Sant Baba Jarnail Singh ji Khalsa on that day?

[kdsingh80]

Only five

Please read following

Final Ruling from Akal Takht

http://www.sikhs.org/meat.htm

The Akal Takht represents the final authority on controversial issues concerning the Sikh Panth, in this regard the issue of meat eating has been settled. Hukamnama issued by Akal Takht Jathedar Sandhu Singh Bhaura dated February 15th 1980 that Amritdhari Sikhs can eat meat as long as it is jhatka meat and that eating meat does not go against the code of conduct, Kurehit, of the Sikhs. Thus a Sikh cannot be excommunicated for eating meat.

May I ask you that Akal Takht Hukamnaama's hold any values these days to any sect of Sikhism or they are just become Pick and choose,means if it suits what you believe then it is acceptable O/W THrow that Hukambnaama to dustbin.

My above arguement is for every sect of sikhism

[Only five]

Only five

Please read following

Final Ruling from Akal Takht

http://www.sikhs.org/meat.htm

The Akal Takht represents the final authority on controversial issues concerning the Sikh Panth, in this regard the issue of meat eating has been settled. Hukamnama issued by Akal Takht Jathedar Sandhu Singh Bhaura dated February 15th 1980 that Amritdhari Sikhs can eat meat as long as it is jhatka meat and that eating meat does not go against the code of conduct, Kurehit, of the Sikhs. Thus a Sikh cannot be excommunicated for eating meat.

Kds, please read the following:

The tradition was later reinforced by Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji, who upon delivering baptismal vows to the Khalsa instructed;

‘Drink the immortal nectar and upon joining the Khalsa fold go hunting. Continually seek to perfect your use of weapons. Perform Jhatka and eat goats. Do not even go near Halal meat.’ (Pracchin Panth Parkash Steek, Part 1, Page 110)

This above strictly puts the eating of the jhatka meat into the context of warrior spirit. It has nothing to do with allowing 'regular' big gutted Sikhs to indulge into jhatka meat because they can't control there tongue.

Satguru Sri Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji's Hukam is supreme.

May I ask you that Akal Takht Hukamnaama's hold any values these days to any sect of Sikhism or they are just become Pick and choose,means if it suits what you believe then it is acceptable O/W THrow that Hukambnaama to dustbin.

My above arguement is for every sect of sikhism

May I ask you does Satguru Sri Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji Hukam hold any value these days to the laid back Sikhs, who are just looking for an excuse to eat meat, but ain't got the ounce of compassion and shakti to perform jhatka themselves. They can't even face what they eat, how are they ever going to understand the true meaning behind Jhatka. Jhatka does not give a Sikh the right to eat meat, but to practice his warrior spirit, which starts with cutting off the head and then eating the meat of it.

This is not about which sect is doing what, but is about what excuses people bring up for themselves to justify there wrong actions using Sikhi.

Edited October 10, 2010 by Only five

[dalsingh101]

lol@big gutted Sikhs!

Thing is, in Panjab, a lot of people think this is a good look.

I've heard a lot of the older lot describing such people as 'tukray' when the opposite is true.

Digression over.

[kdsingh80]

Kds, please read the following:

The tradition was later reinforced by Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji, who upon delivering baptismal vows to the Khalsa instructed;

‘Drink the immortal nectar and upon joining the Khalsa fold go hunting. Continually seek to perfect your use of weapons. Perform Jhatka and eat goats. Do not even go near Halal meat.’ (Pracchin Panth Parkash Steek, Part 1, Page 110)

This above strictly puts the eating of the jhatka meat into the context of warrior spirit. It has nothing to do with allowing 'regular' big gutted Sikhs to indulge into jhatka meat because they can't control there tongue.

But where ir is written in above quote not to eat Jhatka meat done by others?

Also you have not answered my question.All the disputed matters of Sikhism goes to Akal takhat as every sect in sikhism believe they are following true words of Guru's and other is wrong.So Akal takhat has final authority to decide.Now when it has decided that Sikhs can eat jhatka meat then why to make it issue.

I am sure before issuing hukamnama the jathedar would had discussed this matter with others who have knowledge about what was Guru's Hukam

[Only five]

But where ir is written in above quote not to eat Jhatka meat done by others?

You are not reading the Hukam in the context. Look at what Sri Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji is saying first:

‘Drink the immortal nectar and upon joining the Khalsa fold go hunting.'

This is a condition(must take Amrit) placed on those that want to perform Jhatka. Then Guru Sahib goes further and gives the order of going hunting.

Then further Guru Sahib give another order, with how to practice this order:

'Continually seek to perfect your use of weapons.'

Here comes on how to practice this

'Perform Jhatka and eat goats.'

'Do not even go near Halal meat.’ (Pracchin Panth Parkash Steek, Part 1, Page 110)

Look at the context, which Guru Sahib say to eat goats. It has nothing to do with the 'regular' Sikh, who has taken Amrit and those that have not. It has everything to do with those that practice the warrior spirit, by going hunting and those that will fight in protection of Sikhi in the battle field. This is a Hukam for gaining a warrior spirit, BUT first take Amrit(which means have the discipline of a Saint-soldier) and then practice the art of hunting and Jhatka. Here listen to what Gyani Thakur Singh ji say about Jhatka and his words say the same thing as Sri Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji's Hukam, but Gyani goes into more detail.

The internationally renowned Sikh preacher Giani Thakur Singh Ji, a student of Damdami Taksal, explains the tradition as follows:

"Nihang Singhs eat Jhatka meat because of their traditions. The Guru allowed this tradition of Jhatka to be practised within his army and by his soldiers; it was not for civilians to eat.[/b] Maharaj said to them that if need be you may Jhatka an animal and eat it, not just goats or chickens but any animal you may find in the jungle. The Nihang Singhs of today still follow this tradition. When performing Jhatka on a goat, first the goat is bathed, then Japji Sahib and Chandi Di Var are read. One Singh stands by the head of the goat and upon the final lines of Chandi Di Var being read, ‘Those who sing this divine ballad will be liberated from the realm of life and death’, at this moment the goat is decapitated with one blow and the soul of the goat is liberated. The goat itself lowers its head to receive salvation”. (Giani Thakur Singh, Asa Di Var Viakhya Part 25)

Also you have not answered my question.

I answered your question, with a question that shows your biased view toward the fact of just eating meat. Nihang Singh and those that practice Jhatka, do no eat meat for the purpose of eating meat, like you would. Internet warriors don't need the meat. They need fast fingers, and clever tricks.

All the disputed matters of Sikhism goes to Akal takhat as every sect in sikhism believe they are following true words of Guru's and other is wrong.So Akal takhat has final authority to decide.Now when it has decided that Sikhs can eat jhatka meat then why to make it issue.

I am sure before issuing hukamnama the jathedar would had discussed this matter with others who have knowledge about what was Guru's Hukam

Sri Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji's Hukam is final authority on this issue and a TrueSikh would live by it. You bring up Sri Akal Takht Sahib when you like it and when you don't like it, you discard it, is just a game. It's being an internet warrior. When Sri Guru Gobind SIngh Sahib ji gave the Hukam for Sikhs to read 5 Banis in the morning, how come SGPC discarded it, and said read three. So you point holds no value here.

[amardeep]

agree with only five on the meat issue. According to Mohsin Fani meat was not taken up by the Gurus until during war times.

[Kaljug]

You are not reading the Hukam in the context. Look at what Sri Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji is saying first:

‘Drink the immortal nectar and upon joining the Khalsa fold go hunting.'

This is a condition(must take Amrit) placed on those that want to perform Jhatka. Then Guru Sahib goes further and gives the order of going hunting.

The condition also works the other way round, Singh, in that if you have taken amrit and joined the Khalsa Fauj, you are expected to go hunting and perform jhatka. There is no opt out clause that you get to sign to be a stay-at-home amritdhari Singh and get fat on rasmalai and samosay.

Look at the context, which Guru Sahib say to eat goats. It has nothing to do with the 'regular' Sikh, who has taken Amrit and those that have not. It has everything to do with those that practice the warrior spirit, by going hunting and those that will fight in protection of Sikhi in the battle field. This is a Hukam for gaining a warrior spirit, BUT first take Amrit(which means have the discipline of a Saint-soldier) and then practice the art of hunting and Jhatka. Here listen to what Gyani Thakur Singh ji say about Jhatka and his words say the same thing as Sri Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji's Hukam, but Gyani goes into more detail.

Where does Guru Ji distinguish between a "regular" Sikh and an "irregular" Sikh in the above quote, both of whom have taken amrit? All amritdhari Sikhs are commanded to be shastardhari Sant-Sipahis, not just the "irregular" ones. ;-)

I answered your question, with a question that shows your biased view toward the fact of just eating meat. Nihang Singh and those that practice Jhatka, do no eat meat for the purpose of eating meat, like you would.

It's this simple: if a Sikh wants to eat meat for whatever purpose, then he can, as long it as jhatka and not-halal. That is Guru given commandment and Akal Takht Maryada accepted by the entirety of the Sikh Panth. Whatever your personal feeling - or the teaching of your jatha - regarding the consumption of meat is completely irrelevant. It's not bias, and it is not because meat tastes so good that it makes non-vegetarians into some brainwashed zombies who crave meat at every opportunity, it's just simple fact.

Internet warriors don't need the meat. They need fast fingers, and clever tricks.

That's pretty funny, Singh, since it seems you are the only one here attempting clever tricks to ban any meat for any Sikh unless he personally beheads the animal himself (which is reasonably difficult for anyone living in the West who does not own a farm). For the record, everyone in a Nihang chawni partakes of the goat that is jhatkaed by the chosen Singh. You do not have to jhatka your own animal each and every time.

You bring up Sri Akal Takht Sahib when you like it and when you don't like it, you discard it, is just a game.

Pot calling the kettle black, since that is what you are doing here.

Seriously, how hard is this to understand: if you don't want to eat jhatka meat, don't eat it. If someone else wants to eat jhatka meat, get your face out of their bata and mind your own business.

Edit: By the way, just saw this post of yours:

Isn't the Sikhi of today already in a crisis and is in need of it's warroirs to fight for it today? How many goats does it take to gain this warroir spirit and actually apply it?

Last question, how many Jhatka sections did Sant Baba Jarnail Singh ji Khalsa go through, before taking on the Indian Army? Last one, also how many did the Singhs go through that stood with Sant Baba Jarnail Singh ji Khalsa on that day?

For all your talk of understanding and respecting the real reason for jhatka, it is pretty clear from the above that you do not really believe in its purpose and that your real reason for participation in this thread is to forward your own vegetarian version of Sikhi.

K.

Edited October 10, 2010 by Kaljug

[Only five]

The condition also works the other way round, Singh, in that if you have taken amrit and joined the Khalsa Fauj, you are expected to go hunting and perform jhatka. There is no opt out clause that you get to sign to be a stay-at-home amritdhari Singh and get fat on rasmalai and samosay

Where does Guru Ji distinguish between a "regular" Sikh and an "irregular" Sikh in the above quote, both of whom have taken amrit? All amritdhari Sikhs are commanded to be shastardhari Sant-Sipahis, not just the "irregular" ones. ;-)

yeah I agree with you on the first paragraph. And second that's why i put regular in quotations it's for a reason. I was specifically speaking to the Singhs that just want to eat the Jhatka meat and have no intention of ever doing jhatka themselves and they still call it a Sikh act.

It's this simple: if a Sikh wants to eat meat for whatever purpose, then he can, as long it as jhatka and not-halal.

Yeah thats what you believe and I believe what i believe. You intrepret Guru Sahib Hukam one way and i do it one way.

That is Guru given commandment and Akal Takht Maryada accepted by the entirety of the Sikh Panth.

The Taksal say Jhatka is used for survival needs. So to say the whole Panth accepts it, is just not accepting reality.

Whatever your personal feeling - or the teaching of your jatha - regarding the consumption of meat is completely irrelevant.

My jatha, hahahaa....don't have one. I say your belief is irrevelant.

It's not bias, and it is not because meat tastes so good that it makes non-vegetarians into some brainwashed zombies who crave meat at every opportunity, it's just simple fact.

If a Sikh has no intention to do Jhatka and go hunting(like Guru Sahib Hukam) himself ever and still eats it, then it's all about the tongue. Tell me why there is a prescribed way to kill an animal and for vegetarian food there is nothing. I'm not getting into some meat vs vegatarian debate, but atleast accept the fact it stands for something.

That's pretty funny, Singh, since it seems you are the only one here attempting clever tricks to ban any meat for any Sikh unless he personally beheads the animal himself (which is reasonably difficult for anyone living in the West who does not own a farm).

When practicing Guru Sahib Hukam then do it properly. No farms around in a certain country is no excuse. And your the one here attempting clever tricks to say eat meat whenever you want. Maharaj put it in context and you completely disregard this context.

For the record, everyone in a Nihang chawni partakes of the goat that is jhatkaed by the chosen Singh. You do not have to jhatka your own animal each and every time.

Those partaking in the eating of the jhatka animal should have the true intentions of one day picking up the art of hunting and jhatka themselves. Otherwise, consider yourself a 'regular' big gutted, toungue following Sikh. Food is to survive, no need to go out of your way and buy jhatka. The same people that say jhatka is alright are saying it lowers spirituality, so in this sense, just buying jhatka is going out of your way. Performing it has a bigger purpose. Which you seem to forget when it comes to eating it.

Pot calling the kettle black, since that is what you are doing here.

Same goes for you. Jathas like Nihang, Taksal, AKJ, Niddar Giddar crew, Nanaksar, Darshan Laal huggers, the blue crew, then the rest all discard Sri Akal Takht Sahib ji's Hukam(each one of them have their own Maryada). Only follow what they chose. And I'm not the one bringing up the Sri Akal Takht Sahib Hukam, it's your associate and your the one in support of it. I'm looking at Sri Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji Hukam and it does not at all say what the Sri Akal Takht Hukam say, so it's obvious, Guru Sahib Hukam is higher.

Seriously, how hard is this to understand: if you don't want to eat jhatka meat, don't eat it. If someone else wants to eat jhatka meat, get your face out of their bata and mind your own business.

It's not hard at all. It's you who are taking Guru Sahib Hukam out of context. I have said those that practice jhatka in the true form are doing nothing wrong.

For all your talk of understanding and respecting the real reason for jhatka, it is pretty clear from the above that you do not really believe in its purpose and that your real reason for participation in this thread is to forward your own vegetarian version of Sikhi.

K.

is it really that? I take it as those that practice the art of jhatka, but don't follow up with it, like actually going to war when it's needed, like right now, are just doing it because they love the taste and maybe they like cutting off heads of goats. Makes it an easy target, legs held, faced tied with a rope. Nothing wrong with the legs held and face tied with rope, but their no reaction to todays crisis of Sikhi speaks volumes, to what are they dedicated more too. It just becomes a ritual for that person. But for those that actually take on battles and perform this art, then it's called Sikhi.

And Sant ji example was an example where all Sikhs don't need(as in to get warrior spirit) to practice Jhatka and still can take on armies that out number them and don't run or hide or faint at the sight of blood or other horrifying seens. There was Nihang Singh(True Nihang Singhs not just dressed as one) fight along side Sant ji, so this just tells me how much you want to distort what i say.

[DSG]

Only Five , very good post , what you right and explain makes sense ( never new that )

Thank you for the awareness

[Kaljug]

is it really that? I take it as those that practice the art of jhatka, but don't follow up with it, like actually going to war when it's needed, like right now, are just doing it because they love the taste and maybe they like cutting off heads of goats. Makes it an easy target, legs held, faced tied with a rope. Nothing wrong with the legs held and face tied with rope, but their no reaction to todays crisis of Sikhi speaks volumes, to what are they dedicated more too. It just becomes a ritual for that person. But for those that actually take on battles and perform this art, then it's called Sikhi.

LOL, I knew this was coming next. Basically, then, you are saying that jhatka as performed by Nihangs today is wrong as they are not all off fighting wars NOW to make you feel safe and for the betterment of the stay-at-home Singhs who are too busy stuffing their faces with patooray to learn to defend themselves.

And Sant ji example was an example where all Sikhs don't need(as in to get warrior spirit) to practice Jhatka and still can take on armies that out number them and don't run or hide or faint at the sight of blood or other horrifying seens. There was Nihang Singh(True Nihang Singhs not just dressed as one) fight along side Sant ji, so this just tells me how much you want to distort what i say.

If that was the case, then why didn't you say that? Instead what you did was pretend to understand and respect jhatka then say "How many goats do you need to kill to awaken a warrior spirit?", and then give the example of Sant Ji as evidence for your beliefs that jhatka has nothing to do with obtaining a warrior spirit.

Anyway, I am done debating you. Come back and play when you can actually be honest about your intentions and speak without dissembling. Or better yet, just do as I said and keep your face out of other people's batay, because nothing you type here will ever stop the traditions of jhatka in Nihang chawnis.

K.

[chatanga1]

You are not reading the Hukam in the context. Look at what Sri Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji is saying first:

‘Drink the immortal nectar and upon joining the Khalsa fold go hunting.'

This is a condition(must take Amrit) placed on those that want to perform Jhatka. Then Guru Sahib goes further and gives the order of going hunting.

Then further Guru Sahib give another order, with how to practice this order:

'Continually seek to perfect your use of weapons.'

Here comes on how to practice this

'Perform Jhatka and eat goats.'

'Do not even go near Halal meat.’ (Pracchin Panth Parkash Steek, Part 1, Page 110)

Look at the context, which Guru Sahib say to eat goats. It has nothing to do with the 'regular' Sikh, who has taken Amrit and those that have not. It has everything to do with those that practice the warrior spirit, by going hunting and those that will fight in protection of Sikhi in the battle field. This is a Hukam for gaining a warrior spirit, BUT first take Amrit(which means have the discipline of a Saint-soldier) and then practice the art of hunting and Jhatka.

What i have bolded is not what is written, those words you have added yourself. Guru Ji is not giving a list of things that have to be done in order like steps. Dont make that mistake that there is some kind of step by step process for a sikh to lead to performiong jhatka or eating meat. Going hunting is not a pre-requisite for eating meat and never has been. That going hunting is not an order for Sikhs but advice for martial prowess. Nothing more.

And excuse me but who were the Sikhs that made up the Dal? They were all regular Sikhs. This notion that only those who wield swords are warriors or some kind of special sikhs is rubbish.

Here listen to what Gyani Thakur Singh ji say about Jhatka and his words say the same thing as Sri Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji's Hukam, but Gyani goes into more detail.

The internationally renowned Sikh preacher Giani Thakur Singh Ji, a student of Damdami Taksal, explains the tradition as follows:

"Nihang Singhs eat Jhatka meat because of their traditions. The Guru allowed this tradition of Jhatka to be practised within his army and by his soldiers; it was not for civilians to eat

Hold on Ji, Guru Ji did not allow this tradition to start within his army, HE started it. Jhatka started by Guru Ji themselves were continued by his SIkhs. It is prepostorous to assume that any SIkhs started Jhatka traditions and Guru Ji's allowed it to happen.

At no time has Guru ever said that it is not for civilians to eat. Guru Ji has never differentiaitd between SIkhs.

[jaikaara]

there r 2000 excuses for not eating jhatka and another thousand theories for being vegeterian, all we can say is if u r sikh and non vegeterian jhatka meat is the only thing u can eat...if u r vege do what u want to do with yor vegeies..

[chatanga1]

true, but the veggie warriors wont let it rest.

[jaikaara]

i have had bad fights with them, i get red in the face with those ghass poos waale..if u cant jhatka yor subzi halaaal it or whateva..dont poke into my kalegi !

[Only five]

What i have bolded is not what is written, those words you have added yourself. Guru Ji is not giving a list of things that have to be done in order like steps. Dont make that mistake that there is some kind of step by step process for a sikh to lead to performiong jhatka or eating meat. Going hunting is not a pre-requisite for eating meat and never has been. That going hunting is not an order for Sikhs but advice for martial prowess. Nothing more.

You have not taken into consideration how Sri Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji starts off the Hukam. Here is the Hukam and i'll make bold what is very important to take in, when intrepreting the Hukam.

Drink the immortal nectar and upon joining the Khalsa fold go hunting. Continually seek to perfect your use of weapons. Perform Jhatka and eat goats. Do not even go near Halal meat. (Pracchin Panth Parkash Steek, Part 1, Page 110)

This one word that is in bold in the first sentence changes everything that comes after it. The fact Sri Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji said take Amrit and then UPON this go hunting means do it in this order. Not at your own wishes.

And excuse me but who were the Sikhs that made up the Dal? They were all regular Sikhs. This notion that only those who wield swords are warriors or some kind of special sikhs is rubbish.

Understand the context i used the word 'regular' your taking it out of context. Sikhi has a Saint side and a Soldier side. The Saint comes first and is followed by the soldier side. The soldier can be intrepreted into two ways, whether that be using the pen or the sword or both.

Hold on Ji, Guru Ji did not allow this tradition to start within his army, HE started it. Jhatka started by Guru Ji themselves were continued by his SIkhs.

Jhatka has been in practice by others for a long time. It was not started by Sri Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji in the Panth. Sri Guru Hargobind Sahib ji times the tradition of jhatka was practiced by the Sikhs along with going hunting, Nirmal Panth. In the final Hukams of establishing the Khalsa Panth, Sikhs take it as a Hukam to take Amrit first and then practice hunting and other task, including Jhatka(the Hukam provided above of Sri Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji). Just like a person who has not taken Amrit cannot be part of Punj Pyare, there is Hukams for Jhatka and hunting.

It is prepostorous to assume that any SIkhs started Jhatka traditions and Guru Ji's allowed it to happen.

At no time has Guru ever said that it is not for civilians to eat. Guru Ji has never differentiaitd between SIkhs.

Gyani ji is aware of the fact that Jhatka is a old tradition. Please understand the context in which Gyani ji is using the word civilian. Just like i used the word regular(then added big gutted) for those that want to eat meat and not perform the art of shastr training of hunting and jhatka or taking Amrit from the Punj Pyare. Do we allow those that have not taken Amrit to be part of the Punj Pyare? In the same way Guru Sahib put hunting and jhatka secondary to taking Amrit. This strenghts the warrior spirit.

Gyani ji is not saying Sri Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji differentiated between Sikhs, but is using 'civilians' as a way to speak of those that want to eat meat, but have no intentions, whatsoever to take Amrit or if taken Amrit then no intentions of hunting or Jhatka. The meat is only a product of the the true practice Sri Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji wants us to carry out(hunting and Jhatka). Meat is not the core practice, and is of litle importance to when speaking about warrior spirit and attaining this warrior spirit. As a whole meat is looked down upon by the same people who adovacate Jhatka is to be done, because it lowers spirituality, which is the first reason why we are even here on this earth(bhagati). The Warrior spirit is brought in to protect the dharma(spiritual side and the freedom for everyone to practice as they wish). Even the warrior spirit can be a block in the spiritual side, if practiced without the Saint side. Saint side comes first, and holds most importance in Sikhi.

Read this, extracted from the article provided on the first page of the discussion:

'From the writings of Principal Teja Singh, a vivid Sikh academic who often criticised British involvement in Sikh affairs, we learn that the ritual of Jhatka was banned by the British:

The Guru introduced this idea of Jhatka among his followers, which being incorporated later on by Guru Gobind Singh among the baptismal vows prescribed by him is still insisted on by Sikhs as a mark of their liberty. It stands for freedom of food, which was maintained as long as Sikhs were politically free. But with the coming of the British it was suspended for us, and we are still waiting for the day when we should be again free in the matter of food. (Sikhs as Liberators, page 5)'

Amrit comes first and then practicing the Warrior spirit. The Blessing of the Guru is what gets us to sachkand. Otherwise everything is doen in vain.

'Conclusion

Jhatka is an ancient Kshatri ritual which the Sikhs have practised since the times of Sri Guru Hargobind Sahib Ji and was reinforced by Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji.'

Edited October 12, 2010 by Only five

[Only five]

LOL, I knew this was coming next. Basically, then, you are saying that jhatka as performed by Nihangs today is wrong as they are not all off fighting wars NOW to make you feel safe and for the betterment of the stay-at-home Singhs who are too busy stuffing their faces with patooray to learn to defend themselves.

Actually that's how you want my writing to be protrayed. Read my post before you start throwing around words that stand for nothing I have said.

If that was the case, then why didn't you say that? Instead what you did was pretend to understand and respect jhatka then say "How many goats do you need to kill to awaken a warrior spirit?", and then give the example of Sant Ji as evidence for your beliefs that jhatka has nothing to do with obtaining a warrior spirit.

how many goats..... part is speaking of those that perform jhatka for the meat only. And don't pretend like they don't exist. And if i had a real problem with Jhatka, i would have gone to the root of the source and made a remark toward Sri Hazur Sahib, where Jhatka is done openly. Seriously read what i write before making asumptions. I not your enemy here regarding Jhatka. And the Sant ji part shows it is not neccasary to attain warrior spirit. Some need it and some don't need jhatka to attain warrior spirit.

Anyway, I am done debating you. Come back and play when you can actually be honest about your intentions and speak without dissembling. Or better yet, just do as I said and keep your face out of other people's batay, because nothing you type here will ever stop the traditions of jhatka in Nihang chawnis.

K.

Give it a rest, just because I don't agree with your view on openly eating meat, does not make me a deciever and man with a hidden agenda, with bad intentions. If you waant to prove something wrong then attack the person's writing, instead of putting words in others mouth and then accepting them to say yes i did when they said nothing of the sort.

Your last sentence, just shows you really don't care for the practice of Jhatka and it's true form, but just like eating the product of it(meat). And who said I wanted to stop the Jhatka tradition.

Just amazing, how many false accusations you are making here.

Well i hope you don't take this to heart and actually try to understand things for what they are.

Edited October 12, 2010 by Only five