Rise In Sex Before Marriage And Adultery?

[Mr Sardar]

VJKK VJKFji

Hi I would like to ask everyone about what people feel about adultery and sex before marriage? Such acts are on the rise, I personally think one of the reasons is economy in the past sex before marriage and out of marriage was generally done by kings however not all kings did there were some just ones. The sikh misls who did this were influenced by mughals and hindu kings and even amongst them some did and some did not, it came down to how one feared there own God. In the past in punjab people did not sleep around primarily down to honour killings. In the west there is a sense of being liberal and in such case some Muslims feel that shariah is something that would control all this. However I strongly disagree by pursuing one evil with a greater evil. In terms of controlling ones own personaly lust and how sex is everywhere one turns in the media on the roads and how exploitation of such a thing is going. How does one pursue this when it comes to having children. How are you going to control your children from having sex before marriage or out of marriage or even going with someone out of the Sikh religion? Would you resort to honour killing? Do you cut yourself off from them and cut your family if someone goes off with someone? If your child ends up with a Muslim or someone else do you plan to bring them into Sikhism and if so how? What do you do if the resist Sikhism and convert your child? Or even your sisters, or cousins or even you?

Edited February 20, 2011 by sarbatdapala

[amardeep]

....

Edited February 20, 2011 by amardeep

[Mr Sardar]

Additionally how can Sikhs contribute to the world on a global scale of reducing teenage pregnancies and sexually transmitted diseases?

[chatanga1]

Additionally how can Sikhs contribute to the world on a global scale of reducing teenage pregnancies and sexually transmitted diseases?

we cant. look at the other countrys around the world which are in part theocratic, they havent controlled this. onlhy places like afghanistan and iran etc, where there is a grear fear of being caught would stop someone from this. places like uk give these people a helping hand with the welfare state, cos its well fair innit?

[dalsingh101]

I heard there are undercover AIDS problems in Panjab too. Probably more so now we have so many smackheads, some of whom probably 'shoot up'.

[chatanga1]

Aids spread primarily in Panjab through unchecked blood, which was used for transfusions. In the 1990 panjabi truck drivers were doing their part in bringing it to panjab via their visits to pros outside of panjab and then coming back to infect their partners in panjab.

now as Dal Singh says, the increase in drug use, will spread it further.

[dalsingh101]

I can't help but ask.

Is God punishing our quom?

[SURYADEV]

I can't help but ask.

Is God punishing our quom?

why the need for god to punish us when we have each other to 'french connection uk' us about?

[dalsingh101]

why the need for god to punish us when we have each other to 'french connection uk' us about?

It's true. Why drag God into bewakoofi of our own making......

I tell you, we have never looked like such a sorry bunch of pendus ever before.

Here's hoping for grace to transcend the corporate ditch we're in.

[Mr Sardar]

we can only put our hopes into 3h0 the goora sikhs to do what the punjabis failed to do. Yogi Bhajan was the smartest guy out of all of us and deserves alot of respect he could have made the difference in punjab if the sgpc let him and many others probably could if the sgpc let them, but as long as these selective racist group of people do not let for the change or allow a democracy and listen to others then we are stuck. How about getting twitter for akal takht. Thing is the media can change everything for everyone- we are not the only people with this problem, this has all sprouted out of mtv and american media if we can more postivie role models maybe gursikhs into it, it would be nice to spread those values even a muslim who practices what he preaches about sex before marriage can sort it out.

[Mr Sardar]

I think the biggest issue sikhs and everyone else faces is the destruction of family values sleeping around, adultery and drinking is routing out of pretty much hollywood and the music industry alot of music these days from mtv are full of so much sex being sold and advertised all the billboards and posters everywhere people see things on fantasy they can not even get in there marriages or can not wait anymore. How do we protest against mtv with other religious groups and family groups to bring better censorship and direct there sales towards other genres of music because as long as this sales this will create havoc in the world. How we work with groups to help bring an end to more videos being produced like that.

[HSD1]

I can't help but ask.

Is God punishing our quom?

Don't be stupid.

Funny how this thread didnt get as much interest as the drink one, yet promiscuity, adultery and pre-marriage sex is a major no-no in our religion.

[dalsingh101]

Don't be stupid.

Have you ever tried to grasp the worldview and theology inherent in our faith in a sustained way?

Or is this all politics and sociological factors to you?

Edited March 5, 2011 by dalsingh101

[HSD1]

Have you ever tried to grasp the worldview and theology inherent in our faith in a sustained way?

Or is this all politics and sociological factors to you?

Do you even know how the world works? Blaming everything on Waheguru's Hukam whilst letting the real reason go unnoticed doesnt solve anything. Unless you believe that punjabi truck drivers are told to sleep with prossies by God or that sharing needles is some kind of maryada.

[dalsingh101]

Do you even know how the world works? Blaming everything on Waheguru's Hukam whilst letting the real reason go unnoticed doesnt solve anything. Unless you believe that punjabi truck drivers are told to sleep with prossies by God or that sharing needles is some kind of maryada.

What would you suggest? That the lack of a nation state is causing them to shag prossies? And that they wont stop unless we get a nation before hand and then drum it into their heads not to?

Anyway, I don't think we'd even disagree on the factors at influence. It's just we'd give different weightage[?] to the subcomponents at work.

I guess I'm just expecting more from our people when it comes to personal discipline than you? Not anything remotely near perfection mind you - just that they don't wallow in the sludge of the barrel. Maybe I'm a fool for that or maybe we need to up our expectations of each other?

[HSD1]

What would you suggest? That the lack of a nation state is causing them to shag prossies? And that they wont stop unless we get a nation before hand and then drum it into their heads not to?

Anyway, I don't think we'd even disagree on the factors at influence. It's just we'd give different weightage[?] to the subcomponents at work.

I guess I'm just expecting more from our people when it comes to personal discipline than you? Not anything remotely near perfection mind you - just that they don't wallow in the sludge of the barrel. Maybe I'm a fool for that or maybe we need to up our expectations of each other?

Nation state?! Wtf, why bring that up? I'm not into one size fits all solutions, or using the same hammer to hit every nail. Each problem needs to be assessed by itself, and if it is linked to other problems, it needs to be hit from every angle.

For promiscuity, it's really the breakdown of the arranged marriage system. Our grandparents were married when they were in their late teens, our parents generation in their early 20s, us in our late 20s. Trying to stay celibate for a decade longer than our grandparents in an anglosphere where this activity is encouraged is next to impossible unless you're ugly or really, really unlucky. Some strong souls achieve it but they tend to keep out of the way of the opposite sex. In india a married man shouldnt be allowed to spend too long away from his family. The truck drivers get up to this stuff because they have control on their own money and are away from home for long periods of time. The simplest solution would be for them to get jobs closer to home, but jobs arent exactly in major supply over there.

As for personal discipline, some people are just so stupid its hard to expect much from them. Instead its better to limit their effects on others, as self-discipline requires motivation and a deep understanding of why you are doing something rather than being told what to do and expecting them to just do it.

[Mr Sardar]

Also there is this huge rise in sikh girls going for muslim guys while they do not even want to be with sikhs anymore there are muslim preachers teaching this.

[chatanga1]

For promiscuity, it's really the breakdown of the arranged marriage system. Our grandparents were married when they were in their late teens, our parents generation in their early 20s, us in our late 20s. Trying to stay celibate for a decade longer than our grandparents in an anglosphere where this activity is encouraged is next to impossible unless you're ugly or really, really unlucky. major supply over there.

i 2nd that.

[GtLoc]

..

Edited July 24, 2013 by GtLoc

[Ouka]

Sex is such a huge subject ... which I am trying to understand better.

When we talk about sex, and we ask questions, we look outside, around us, in other countries, cultures, religions ...

Maybe we should look inside.

I personnaly think that sex lost its sacred sense.

If you look at sex just on the physical dimension, then you will miss the biggest part of its meaning. Like the meaning of marriage.

We usually approch things from the outside, with our eyes, what we see.

You talked about the music, the videos, the TV .... a few years ago I understood that I couldn't change the world in fighting against, or being angry at it. So, I recognized my power, which is not to watch TV anymore, choose the music that is good for my well-being, choose the pictures I look at, because I am aware of the vibrations they lead to our soul.

There is, and I think it is true for a lot of cultures and religions, a missing of teachings about sexuality. It seems not easy to talk about sex, especially into the family. My parents didn't talk to me about sexuality, and I can see that a lot of youths are just abandoned infront that door, with the untold message : "Good luck !"

The fear of mammals is to be rejected from the clan. We are also mammals, so this fear is somewhere inside us ... probably still in our cells, and it acts on our thoughts and choices. I listened to men, young and less young, about their relationships, how it started, and it seemed to me very complicated to be a man ... complicated to be a woman too actually !

I think because of this unconscious fear, we reproduce a wrong comportement, the one we see around us.

Nobody is to blame, it won't help for change. I don't when things started to get into the wrong way, but my idea is that it was a long time ago, probably at the beginning. It is related to duality, and the best way to find peace is to know the war, to find light is to know the dark.

I don't mean we should all have sex before marriage. Actually, "having sex" is the problem. It doesn't mean nothing. It is like if we would say "having breath" ... no sense.

There are so much fears about sex that everyone do his best, and actually the best is still wrong.

We would probably enrich each others if we could talk freely about our needs, our fears, our feelings. Not talks from men to men, but talks from men to women, and women to men. I tried sometimes to talk about that, with friends, and they quickly felt very uncomfortable, became aggressive sometimes. I was disappointed because it could be very interesting to understand each other.

A lot of problems of humanity comes from the difficulty to communicate, and also the difficulty to accept that "we don't know".

Once I read this : "You don't know how much you don't know what you don't know". It is so true !

But arrogance is very high now. And the media drain this arrogance everywhere. Young guys, like young girls, watch and listen to the media, and then they think it is the reality. So, they start to change into a superficial person, they try to look like the model they see. But the model is false. It is not real life, we don't have to be strong, perfect, nice, muscular, wear perfums to hidde our real smell, and so and so ... that is false. So, when all this is already distorted, can you imagine what will happen about sex ?

Because of wrong comportements, lies and silence, each one imagine what the other wants. We never check, we imagine and we don't ask. We imagine and we try do give what we think, what we imagine, even if for that we need to force our own self.

I'd like to share this thought with you. If we know nothing about sex, and we imagine we gonna get married, then sex will become something very scary, because the unknown is scary. What would be then the solution ? Having sex before ?

But if we have sex before marriage, with who will it happen ? What kind of women ? Do we considere then that there is a kind of women for ... testing ? Will it not damage the image of the woman, the respect for who the woman is ? Will we cut the woman in 2 parts ... duality again. The virgin and the whore ? And then let this lie being perpetrated again and again. Women are not whores, they are the lie men don't want to see anymore, since many many centuries.

You see how a lie can become something that seems natural ?!

The only way to learn something is the feeling. If you want to know what means to be burnt, you need to put your hand into the fire. Someoen can explain you, with words, for hours and hours, you will imagine, but never KNOW.

In our period, we think that knowing is with mental, with our head. It is not. How do you know you are afraid ? Because you feel it into your body.

So, if you want to know sex before you get married, what else can you do than havng sex with someone you may not love, with someone you may leave !

okay, I can share my own story. I'm from France, my parents are atheists, I had no education about faith, neither about marriage or sex. The first ime I made love with a man I truly loved, I thought we would spend our life together. It was just obvious to me. Was I naive ? Sure, of course I was ! I was innocent and young, and I trusted the older because I thought they were wise, I thought they would never ever abuse my innocence and my trustful. But then, this man left, to go to England, and he also left the relation, our relation, so he left me. It seemed very easy and natural to him. Not for me. I felt betrayed, in the deepest of my heart, of my soul ... and of my body. I said nothing, cried in secret, because around me nobody was shocked ! My injury was true, but I couldn't talk about it, and my pain became anger. Because then, I was not virgin anymore. So what ? WHore ? Yes, it was such a deep betrayal.

So, you should think of that and ask yourself if it is what you want to do, to a woman ?

I think we put to much attention, and pressure, on sexuality, on sex. If people have desire, sexual desire, they should eat less.

I fasted for a year, and found out that the energy is so different, less aggressive. The desire is related to our ego. Ego is not the Master, but in many societies, it is ! Ego is the king !

Do you think a young girl, a virgin, wants you to be a sex bomb ? She is just like you, afraid infront the unknown. No reason to rape both of you with lies and wrong comportements. Don't rape the sacred into your respective hearts and soul. Two bodies, one soul .... I read so on the post about Khalsa women ....

If the desire leads you, you'll be like an animal, focusing only on your instincts, forgetting your sacred dimension.

You don't have to make love, you don't have to have sex, you need to prepare yourself to be grasped by Love, grasped by sexuality. Then you will be led by God, both of you.

If you want to success, you are in the wrong way, you are on the way of ego. If you are afraid to be ridiculous, you are on the way of ego. If you worry about what think the others about your sexuality, you are on the way of ego.

And you know that already.

Another experience of mines I can share : the first time I went to a sikh Temple. It was my first time, and it was the unknown for me. I just knew a little about sikhism, enough to feel attracted to it. It was also in Canada, and my english was so so at this time. Can you imagine how impressed and scared I felt ? In the bus, which took me closer to the Temple, to the moment I would have to face this unknown, tears came out my eyes. I felt so impressed ! My heart beat so strongly !

It is so similar than the first time in sexuality ...

I sat down and let the prayers do their good job inside my being, but I can tell you how mad was my ego ! When it was time to eat, at the langar, I just could cry on my chapati ! It was my ego.

So yes, sexuality is very unknown, and it is why it is so sacred. With arrogance, we pretend to know what is sex, and we perpetuate wrong messages, wrong comportements.

I talked a lot ... I can listen too !

[SAadmin]

Ouka ji, that was deep insightful post...thanks for sharing it.

Here is my personal take on this-

Each religion have basic foundations- basic do and don't's so the new comer make its foundation strong does not wander away, or looses its focus..so in sikhi as well- sex before marriage is also consider one of things need to be avoided.

Overall in the topic of sex after marriage.

Sikh idea of marriage is very sacred, its called anand karaj consist of four vows which actually symbolises state of mind, state of being.

Anand Karaj is fully divine in nature.The whole four lavan in anand karaj are actually four states partner together as one "unit' supposed to walk on. For eg- 1st lavan- Embracing the righteous code of dharam-sikh religion, 2nd Lavan - listening to guru's discourses and acting up on it - being imbued in naam simran/meditation as result unstruck resosance of divine sound- shabada resonates in couple's inside - 3rd Lavan - couple having sangat of soceity of saints and true bairaag is known, followed by fourth lavan- heart blossoms forth in the Naam, and there is full union with husband lord.

Symbolically, couples are considered bride and Vahiguroo/God is considered true husband..!!

Philosophy of sikh marriage, meant for uniting with divine its not to pay super importance to sex....that does not mean its forbidden ..no its not forbidden, its perfectly natural and it depends if individual perception have lust element in it then its condemned but if its purely act to show an affection towards an partner then its fine..ultimately, it depending on two individual perception.

Now sikh idea of marriage does not revolve around sex..sex is there to create, show each other affection but thats pretty much it. Real purpose of sikh marriage to couple together as one unit- go deep internally, go introvert to find divine, as divine is inside of us.

Human body is full of energy points. In marriage, if both couples have mutual understanding and have some desire to progress in spiritual sikhi, one does not need to do sex to sustain there relationship. It's quite possible to channel one's sexual energy push it upwards towards higher energy where one can utilize this energy towards meditation

I think the key here, mutual understanding between couples and if both agree and very serious on the path of spirituality, they can easily give up sex by channeling sexual energy upwards so it could be utilize else where naam simran..

At the end of day to put in contrast- anand/bliss one gets from bhog is small drop of anand/bliss compare to divine meditational bliss which is huge sea of bliss compare to an individual who has merged in God, which is endless ocean of bliss..who wants to get or dwell around drop of anand/bliss where one has potential to get ocean of anand/bliss..!!!!!!!!!!

[Ouka]

This is so interesting, I'm discovering sikhi now, for true.

I don't understand every word, like "bairaag" ... can you explain this one ?

I took notes on paper, as it is so close to what I finally understood through my experiences and meditations.

I mean, it is exactly what means marriage to me now. The four lavan makes so much sense inside of me.

I feel better since I am talking with sikhs, about sikhism. So, it means my heart led me to sikhism because he knows. He knows it would be good for me.

Yes, truly I'm surprised, when I read about Anand Karaj, because it is what meditation taught me, what experiences taught me.

But I couldn't talk about it with anyone here. They are just not the same culture, no worse, no better, just different. I felt so orphan. I was, and I knew I was. So, to say I felt homeless was true.

God leads me, and I am walking with open eyes since I told my ego to be the faithful dog he must be, instead being the Master !

Anyway, when I first read about sikhi, I was surprised because it was very close to who I am now. I remember very clearly that I've been thinking : "oh ! So I am already sikh !"

Now I read about the way sikhi means marriage, and it is like it put words on my feelings. It is a relief, just like when you want to explain something very important to someone but you don't talk the same language. Very frustrating !

I think sikhi has a lot to offer me. I am drinking these words like I woud drink at a source.

Okay, that was the expression of my emotion.

I feel so touched when I read that sikh idea marriage doesn't revolve around sex. I know that too, even if I have not been taught by sikhism, but I felt so lonely, until now, when I said so around me. There is a strong pressure on sex attitude. Sex is THE purpose, in western style life, and probably more in France and mediterranean countries. I was born in France, and now I know that God makes the best "plan" for me .... but I was not aware of that for a long time, and the sexual pressure was hard to live, hard to bear, hard to fight ! I still feel hurted, like a soldier with scars, but I trusted God when I choose "no sex anymore". I knew there was another way, another path, another level.

Complicated to live in a society where most of people don't think the same. When I say "no sex anymore", the reacts are amazing, and usually unfriendly. Even from women ! which is more surprising for me.

I found my power back, good for me, but I heard myself being insulted, aggressed because of my choice. Only my talks with God gave me strength to continue. My faith grew up, day after day, and I accepted to live alone if it was the only way to serve God, to be faithful to myself, to respect the Divine God put into this Temple ... my body.

I am responsible now for this Temple, and that is the most important. Of course, sometimes I felt very lonely, misunderstood, rejected, even by my own family, and I cried, and I suffered. Enough to grow more my faith into God.

I've been searching, and felt discouraged sometimes as I thought I would never meet someone who has a different idea of sex and marriage.

So, this sounds so important to be told, to be talked about, important to garden the precious seeds God gave to us, to make beautiful gardens, with high values.

I feel grateful to share my experience, to tell my testimony, even with the fear to be judged again, or rejected again. It is important to take risks when it is about truth. I think it is what says the story of Khalsa women, isn't it ?

I should do my best to seem perfect to get into a new community, to please my new friends, family. But my heart chose sikhism because there is no point to please, no place for appearances, no interest to lie. Yes, my ego can die, as it is unreal anyway !

but I feel like I had to answer to this post you offered us Sarbatdapala. Because it is a gift, for each of us.

I think I'm very tired. I wonder if my talks are still wealthy ?!

Bed time, for this part of earth !

Sat nam

[chatanga1]

Teens like to have sex,

its not just teens bro.

I personnaly think that sex lost its sacred sense.

there is a great enegry behind it, and if it is used correctly, it can be positive, if used uncorrectly, well you can watch the Jez Kyle show, Maury etc and see for yourself.

There was a woman on Maury who had 26 men paternity tested to see who the father of her child was, but it was none of them.

[Ouka]

"there is a great enegry behind it, and if it is used correctly, it can be positive, if used uncorrectly, well you can watch the Jez Kyle show, Maury etc and see for yourself."

I agree with that. Everything is easier and makes sense when it is used correctly.

But when nobody never ever told you how to use it, even a stupid hammer, each

one will do his best ... and actually, the best becomes the worse !! crushed fingers, spoiled self esteem

It is strange to me when ou talk about this Maury woman .... not clear .... do you blame her ?

What is the meaning of this example ?

[chatanga1]

"there is a great enegry behind it, and if it is used correctly, it can be positive, if used uncorrectly, well you can watch the Jez Kyle show, Maury etc and see for yourself."

I agree with that. Everything is easier and makes sense when it is used correctly.

But when nobody never ever told you how to use it, even a stupid hammer, each

one will do his best ... and actually, the best becomes the worse !! crushed fingers, spoiled self esteem

It is strange to me when ou talk about this Maury woman .... not clear .... do you blame her ?

What is the meaning of this example ?

I wouoldnt put it down to lack of info about it, because schools do a heck of a lot in regards to sex education.

re the woman on maury, the point is of how destructive promiscuity is. Imagine the child in 10 or 15 years time, learning about its mother needing to go through 27 men to find out who her father is.

I wouldnt like to blame, i think the men are probably as bad.