Limit dasam granth authenticity debates on the forum to once a month- Need feedback?

[ibrute]

Debates are OK, as long as swearing and name calling is not happening. Admin must be more strict with language used here. If we want to curse and abuse, we have Facebook and reddit for that, point of coming to this forum is to have peaceful and meaningful discussion, I guess nobody is here to waste their time. Bottomline quality control should be strictly implemented with no second warning. We should check our emotions before posting on topics or else refrain from it.

[Guest]

535

[paapiman]

Daas will request admins to start locking those threads, where concerns/doubts/questions raised have already been discussed on this forum. If there is any new information, then it should be allowed to be discussed. Condensation of information, present in different threads into one topic should also be permitted.

Additionally, people who repeat the same information in different topics, must also be given cautions.

Bhul chuk maaf

[Xylitol]

Maybe very strictly regulate each thread to ensure it stays on topic? That way debates don't spill over into unrelated threads as much. 

[Xylitol]

Also think that debates that raise controversy  or very strong feelings might need to be limited to registered members only. Reduces trolling

[SikhKhoj]

Stupid policy and biased admins.

Anyways, I am leaving this forum, not that it will matter to anyone.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa

Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

 

[SAadmin]

Your choice bro, good luck..!! Life is more than just online and forums, go out, enjoy nature and do bhagti... forum will take care of itself :)

[SikhKhoj]

Same applies to you. Don't care about this forum anyways
WJKK WJKF

[Xylitol]

Maybe allow people to post in less serious discussions as guests, but require moderators to approve all guest posts?

[Koi]

Same applies to you. Don't care about this forum anyways
WJKK WJKF

sour grapes!!

[DSG]

I dont think setting limitation on a topic will make any difference. Lets face it a bit of controversy makes one read that thread closely, and I think there will always be disagreements , and its how users respond is the key.Vetting this will be very difficult  It may be a good idea for the admins to summarise the valid responses to the questions posed , and if they feel the question has been answered then lock the thread (especially the long ones)

[dalsingh101]

I have to add:

I think Guru ji actually created (or sanctioned - if you like) certain texts to stimulate debate and discussion - and the way certain DG compositions (most especially CP) do just this is a sign of their resounding success in this department. 

[CdnSikhGirl]

Personally I don't care whether or not CP is 'authentic' or not.  If the meaning is meant to denigrate women, then Guru Ji could not have written it (or intended it to be 'bani') if instead the meaning is that being forced into men's shadows, as a second class citizen, then women will fight back and break free from the kitchen walls (as one of the links Singh123456777 posted suggested) then possibly it could have been meant to show this so that the men would see that women can be strong adversary or partner and the choice is theirs.. continue to oppress and woman will be his enemy, while elevating to equal status will mean a strong ally.  However, my issue is that no matter what the original intention might have been or who the actual author was, it is being used now to denegrate women. You can not deny this fact. Half of you on this forum have stated that its was to 'warn the Singhs about aspects of women's nature' to suggest this causes distrust of women by men, and only serves to reinforce this situation as suggested above... men will want to further control women because they don't trust them (put them under their thumb so to speak) and the women will feel trapped being put in sibordination, and will fight back with what means they have being their intellect (since they can not usually fight with brute strength like men) and the cycle continues because the men then say "see told you women were deceitful etc" not realizing they were the ones who were actually responsible for it by placing woman into their shadow.  So fact remains for me, I don't care who wrote it, approved it etc, what I care about is how it's being applied because how it's being applied is hurting 50% of the Sikh panth. 

To suggest that people can not debate a certain subject is suggesting that the forum leans one way or the other and is unwilling to listen to both sides. In a forum that is supposed to be about 'Sikhi' the admin should remain impartial. I have noticed on here that DDT, Nihang etc are praised openly by vast majority and look out if anyone says anything against them, but it's been openly allowed to throw slurs at AKJ, Missionaries etc. even to the point of calling them cults (paapiman) without any word from the admins at all.  So it's very obvious which way the forum leans. And it's those sects that are supported, which blindly follow DG without question.... just because their Baba said so etc. Even Christians are willing to debate authenticity of their own documents like the dead sea scrolls, shroud of turin etc.

So is this forum a DDT or Orthodox Sect forum, or is it a Sikhism forum?  You should really analyze this and possibly change the name to DDT Awareness or Orthodox Sikh Sect Awareness.  Otherwise, allow open debates between orthodox, and missionaries and the different jathas etc. without restricting any topics that would suggest the forum leans one way.

 

[amardeep]

Personally I don't care whether or not CP is 'authentic' or not.  If the meaning is meant to denigrate women, then Guru Ji could not have written it (or intended it to be 'bani') if instead the meaning is that being forced into men's shadows, as a second class citizen, then women will fight back and break free from the kitchen walls (as one of the links Singh123456777 posted suggested) then possibly it could have been meant to show this so that the men would see that women can be strong adversary or partner and the choice is theirs.. continue to oppress and woman will be his enemy, while elevating to equal status will mean a strong ally.  However, my issue is that no matter what the original intention might have been or who the actual author was, it is being used now to denegrate women. You can not deny this fact. Half of you on this forum have stated that its was to 'warn the Singhs about aspects of women's nature' to suggest this causes distrust of women by men, and only serves to reinforce this situation as suggested above... men will want to further control women because they don't trust them (put them under their thumb so to speak) and the women will feel trapped being put in sibordination, and will fight back with what means they have being their intellect (since they can not usually fight with brute strength like men) and the cycle continues because the men then say "see told you women were deceitful etc" not realizing they were the ones who were actually responsible for it by placing woman into their shadow.  So fact remains for me, I don't care who wrote it, approved it etc, what I care about is how it's being applied because how it's being applied is hurting 50% of the Sikh panth. 

To suggest that people can not debate a certain subject is suggesting that the forum leans one way or the other and is unwilling to listen to both sides. In a forum that is supposed to be about 'Sikhi' the admin should remain impartial. I have noticed on here that DDT, Nihang etc are praised openly by vast majority and look out if anyone says anything against them, but it's been openly allowed to throw slurs at AKJ, Missionaries etc. even to the point of calling them cults (paapiman) without any word from the admins at all.  So it's very obvious which way the forum leans. And it's those sects that are supported, which blindly follow DG without question.... just because their Baba said so etc. Even Christians are willing to debate authenticity of their own documents like the dead sea scrolls, shroud of turin etc.

So is this forum a DDT or Orthodox Sect forum, or is it a Sikhism forum?  You should really analyze this and possibly change the name to DDT Awareness or Orthodox Sikh Sect Awareness.  Otherwise, allow open debates between orthodox, and missionaries and the different jathas etc. without restricting any topics that would suggest the forum leans one way.

 

So in case the Guru actually did write the Sri Charitro Pakhyan, you are saying that you are willing to reject the scripture because some Sikhs of today are misinterpreting it?
Using the same logic, are you also willing to reject kesh because most Sikhs aren't keshadharis?

 

Edited August 4, 2015 by amardeep

[CdnSikhGirl]

No you misunderstand what I said.. I said if the meaning that is being interpolated by many Singhs today from it, is what the original meaning was meant to be, then I can't see how Guru Ji would write or condone that - as all of the Gurus advocated gender equality and elevated the position of women. To have a piece of writing that undermines all of that makes no sense (work 200 years to elevate womens position and then in one works, destroy it by creating in men's minds the thoughts that women can not be trusted or treated as equals).

Now, if the purpose was meant to show how pushing women into a subordinate roll in men's shadow, suffocates women into breaking free from their walls (kitchen walls) in the only way the can (using their intellect) then I can see how he might write or encourage men to see how women can either be ally or enemy, and it's men's choice. If they treat women as equals, then woman can be men's staunchest and fiercest ally, but if she is pushed into his shadows to live as second calss citizen, then she can also be worst enemy using her intellect to win over him.  However, if this was the true meaning, then I think it could have been better conveyed so that there would be no confusion - and there IS confusion, which I also find difficult to believe that Guru Ji would write something that was not easily understandable to his followers... especially when the confusion easily diverts to treating women in a bad light, and undoing 200 years of work to elevate their position.

However, what I said, was that no matter what the original meaning was, the one that Singhs seem to deivert to, is that women are inherently deceitful and can't be trusted.  That directly hurts 50% of the panth.... the Singhnis.  And that's the meaning that Guru Ji could not have meant for it undermines everything all of the Gurus worked towards, to elevate the position of women. So what I said was that no matter who the original author was, or if it was court poets, or consigned by Guru Ji, what I care about is how it's being applied in the here and now, and how it's being used is detrimental to Singhnis.   There will always be debate on authenticity... I am less concerned with authenticity than I am with the actual meaning and how CP is being used to limit and restrict women and to put them into a bad light and create animosity and contempt in Singhs towards Singhnis.  Because that's what really matters... the actual effect.

Regarding debates though, to limit debates on certain topics suggests that the forum will only support one view... which is wrong when the forum is supposed to be a 'Sikh' forum. There are many Sikhs who do not believe this is the work of Guru Ji.  They fiercly believe in Guru Ji (they care just as much as you do) and also do not want works attributed to him that could have been written by others and passed off as his, for an agenda.  Their views are also valid as they also make up a huge part of the panth.  To limit discussion and debate on it, suggests that any viewpoints other than what the site admins have, will not be tolerated.  This has been evident with DDT, Nihang etc and so called orthodex sects... where if anyone on here suggests anything negativeabout them gets called the lowest, but those same people are openly allowed to denigrate missionaries, AKJ etc. So this site has to decide if it's a 'SIKH' Awareness site or a DDT / Orthodox sect site.

 

Edited August 4, 2015 by Satkirin_Kaur

[amardeep]

The authencity of scripture does not rely on how people interpret and act upon it. Likewise the authencity of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib does not rely on whether Sikhs practice its teachings right or wrong.

[CdnSikhGirl]

The authencity of scripture does not rely on how people interpret and act upon it. Likewise the authencity of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib does not rely on whether Sikhs practice its teachings right or wrong.

I'm not saying it does... I'm saying the authenticity is less important than how it's being used and interpreted.  Whats the point of upholding something as the work of Guru JI when you are interpreting it and using it to denegrate Singhnis which goes against what Guru Ji taught? The application is more important. Whether or not Guru Ji wrote it, I care more about the interpretation and how it's being applied to limit Singhnis and cause contempt in the minds of Singhs to see Singhnis as inferior and less than them.

Edited August 4, 2015 by Satkirin_Kaur

[amardeep]

Like i've said earlier - the Singhs you meet who degrate women are losers. They opress women on the basis of being losers.. They dont opress them because they've read the Charitro Pakhyan. They might abuse the Charitro Pakhyan as a way of justifying their behavioir, but in essence they are just losers and needs to be categorized as such.

[dalsingh101]

I think now Satkirin has made her points ad-nauseam, and so have have some of us about her interpreting the work via a white, western feminist lens.

 

We just appear to be dancing around in circles now. 

 

I get her point about it being maybe abused, and even why she might see it as denigrating to women given her social conditioning. But she absolutely is incapable of breaking out of her own social conditioning to get a glimpse from any other perspective. 

 

 

[CdnSikhGirl]

Unfortunately they are more in number than you know!  One doesn't have to go far just look on here and you will see it... (Paapiman - declaring women are more lustful etc, has used CP as justification for his position - and then going on to say women should bow down to men out of respect of their 'higher status' over them and see them as demi Gods over them).  That is NOT the Sikhi that I learned.

[paapiman]

Another request to admins:

Please get more strict on people who attack Gurbani (SSGGSJ/SDGSJ). This is a Sikh forum and it should not promote any cults (which applies to some-- AKJ/missionaries/followers of so-called SRM). Only Sikhism should be propagated on this forum.

Already many Gurudwaras in India are under sgpc control, where so-called SRM has been enforced. In some Gurudwaras, wrong prachaar is being done against Gurbani. These activities are greatly hurting Sikhism. At least, we have this online forum, which can be used as a tool to spread Sikhism, as taught by Satgurus.

 

DDT, Nihangs, Udhasis, Nirmalay, Sewapanthi, Nanaksar, etc, all need to unite and face this growing threat of amendments to our religion. 

 

Bhul chuk maaf

Edited August 5, 2015 by paapiman

[dalsingh101]

Unfortunately they are more in number than you know!  One doesn't have to go far just look on here and you will see it... (Paapiman - declaring women are more lustful etc, has used CP as justification for his position - and then going on to say women should bow down to men out of respect of their 'higher status' over them and see them as demi Gods over them).  That is NOT the Sikhi that I learned.

Now you're using Paapiman as some reference point for Sikh men when a lot of us here find many of his assertions strange. 

You've got a view point and only see that which supports it. 

[paapiman]

Now you're using Paapiman as some reference point for Sikh men when a lot of us here find many of his assertions strange. 

Bro, please do let me know about those assertions. Use Gurbani to prove me wrong. Daas is willing to learn.

Anyways. let's stick to the topic.

Bhul chuk maaf

Edited August 4, 2015 by paapiman

[dalsingh101]

Bro, please do let me know about those assertions. Use Gurbani to prove me wrong. Daas is willing to learn.

Anyways. let's stick to the topic.

Bhul chuk maaf

Mate, your not even worth the time. 

 

Why worry about Gurbani? Just use an astrologer. 

[dalsingh101]

Anyway, Satkirin, look at this: Isn't this akin to a modern version of some CP tale?

 

http://www.theguardian.com/film/2015/aug/04/diary-of-a-teenage-girl-filmq