DDT exegesis of gurbani defective

[Gurbani_Vyakaran]

Gurbani Vyakaran rule is must correct for gurbani explanation. If katha giani goes outside of vyakaran boundary should be rejected.

DDT uses stories which most of them have nothing to do with gurbani meaning break grammar rules

Beginning DDT kathakar opens mouth they break vyakaran rules they start with same hindumat story end with hindu vedant meaning break countless of vyakaran rules

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pGox2Pz9918  

http://www.omnitv.ca/bc/pa/videos/4495319053001/

[ibrute]

 If katha giani goes outside of vyakaran boundary should be rejected

Gurmukhi Grammar can be used to explain Gurbani meanings, but Gurbani is NOT bound by any man-made grammar rules. Period.

Edited September 24, 2015 by ibrute

[Koi]

Is the OP a missionary or AKJ?

[Singh123456777]

Is the OP a missionary or AKJ?

Probably both lol

[Singh123456777]

Gurmukhi Grammar can be used to explain Gurbani meanings, but Gurbani is NOT bound by any man-made grammar rules. Period.

This is why the akj cannot comprehend Raag Mala. They get stuck on t why is after ever pauri there is a one instead of going like one, two, three etc. They say that Raag Mala doesn't follow the rules of rest of gurbani but so doesn't Sri dasam Granth sahib. Does that mean Sri dasam Granth sahib isn't bani? Lol these fools are just too much.

[SAadmin]

On 9/24/2015 at 10:29 AM, Gurbani_Vyakaran said:

Gurbani Vyakaran rule is must correct for gurbani explanation. If katha giani goes outside of vyakaran boundary should be rejected.

DDT uses stories which most of them have nothing to do with gurbani meaning break grammar rules

Beginning DDT kathakar opens mouth they break vyakaran rules they start with same hindumat story end with hindu vedant meaning break countless of vyakaran rules

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pGox2Pz9918  

http://www.omnitv.ca/bc/pa/videos/4495319053001/

No doubt vikyaran is important. In fact no one is ignoring vikyaran as its basis to initially understand gurbani. However, unlike worldly scriptures gurbani is divine poetry. Taksal whilst holding general grammar basis considers gurbani as "dhur ki bani", 'anubhav parkash'- divine poetry/came from spontenous intuitve divine knowledge which is not confined by regular grammar rules.

Where is regular vyakaran? how do you apply vyakaran in this maha gyan vak of gurbani?

 ਏ ਅਖਰ ਖਿਰਿ ਜਾਹਿਗੇ ਓਇ ਅਖਰ ਇਨ ਮਹਿ ਨਾਹਿ ॥੧॥
ए अखर खिरि जाहिगे ओइ अखर इन महि नाहि ॥१॥
Ė akẖar kẖir jāhige o▫e akẖar in mėh nāhi. ||1||
These letters shall perish; they cannot describe the Imperishable Lord. ||1||

ਜਹਾ ਬੋਲ ਤਹ ਅਛਰ ਆਵਾ ॥
जहा बोल तह अछर आवा ॥
Jahā bol ṯah acẖẖar āvā.
Wherever there is speech, there are letters.

ਦ੍ਰਿਸਟਿਮਾਨ ਅਖਰ ਹੈ ਜੇਤਾ ॥
द्रिसटिमान अखर है जेता ॥
Ḏaristimān akẖar hai jeṯā.
In the visible universe, the Word is seen.

ਨਾਨਕ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਨਿਰਲੇਪਾ ॥੫੪॥
नानक पारब्रहम निरलेपा ॥५४॥
Nānak pārbarahm nirlepā. ||54||
O Nanak, the Supreme Lord God remains unattached and untouched. ||54||

[paapiman]

DDT uses stories which most of them have nothing to do with gurbani meaning break grammar rules

Bro, can you please provide examples of those stories?

 

 

Beginning DDT kathakar opens mouth they break vyakaran rules they start with same hindumat story end with hindu vedant meaning break countless of vyakaran rules

Most likely, DDT students study Gurbani Vyakaran too. Many tuks in Gurbani have multiple meanings. Not all meanings have to conform with Gurbani Vyakaran. Gurbani cannot be completely confined by parameters such as context (Parikaran), Grammar (Vyakaran), Uthanka (Place of origin), etc.

What is wrong with Hindu mat stories? There are references to Hindu stories in Gurbani too. One becomes a better human by listening to them.

Even First, Second, Third and Fourth Satgurus were born in Hindu families. Vedas are a good source of knowledge. What is wrong in studying them?

Bhul chuk maaf

[Xylitol]

even worldly poetry is not always bound by grammer rules...so why would Gurbani be?

[Keerat Singh]

viarkaran simply gives us some understand where is a word is for example plural, singular, guru referring to himself etc. What viakaran does not do is explain the antreev arath or give any explanation behind the shabad.

If you read Prof Sahib Singh's arath you will find plenty of examples where he says that arath do not make sense if he follows viakaran. Im not saying viakaran is useless, however everything should be considered and Prof Sahib Singh had to accept that the rules did not follow on some shabads. On the one had we say tera ant na jaye likhiya, on the other than we are saying Guru da ant is up to viakaran, 

I have also read books on viakaran. Where do the rules on viakaran not allow you explain shabads through history and stories?

[paapiman]

If you read Prof Sahib Singh's arath you will find plenty of examples where he says that arath do not make sense if he follows viakaran. Im not saying viakaran is useless, however everything should be considered and Prof Sahib Singh had to accept that the rules did not follow on some shabads. 

The above clearly proves that Gurbani cannot be bound by Grammar (Vyakaran).

If someone can provide examples of those tuks, which are independent of Grammar, that would be great.

Dhan Guru Nanak....toon hee Nirankar

Bhul chuk maaf

[Keerat Singh]

Again I will say do not dismiss viakaran. However those people who do not believe in Raag mala just because it does not fit with viakaran will have a hard time explaining shabads which do not fit with the rules of viakaran. Rab ji is not bound by limits, therefore viakaran has been left with flaws intentionally by the guru. After reading vaikaran, you may learn rules of grammar, however in order to understand what maharaj is saying, eventually you will have to seek guidance from samparda arath. If you don't you will not find any achievement in your spiritual journey. This is the conclusion I have come to. 

One example I can give where Prof Sahib Singh clearly says that viakaran does not always work is the note he writes in Jap ji Sahib on the line ahran mat, ved hateyar. 

According to viakaran, where ved has an ankar under the dada, the meaning is singular meaning knowledge. But Prof Sahib Singh admits that where the word comes as singular it does not necessary mean the arath do not refer to the veda or Religious books.  He clearly writes that you have to consider the on going shabad and meaning behind it.

There are many other examples. Atleast Prof Sahib Singh was honest enough to admit this. Today's missionsary paracharks are hiding this fact, knowing full well tha Samparda parcharak who dismiss viakaran wont catch the flaws in viakaran. 

 

 

 

[paapiman]

Again I will say do not dismiss viakaran.

You are right brother.

Vyakaran, Parkaran and Uthanka are tools, which can assist us in understanding Gurbani, but Gurbani is not bound by them.

Prof.Sahib Singh jee was a very knowledgeable person.

Do you know of any more examples? Is Gurbani Vyakaran taught in Taksals or not?

Bhul chuk maaf

Edited September 26, 2015 by paapiman

[SAadmin]

Lets have sensible learning vichar discussion on this, can someone invite staunch supporters of "Gurbani can only interpreted by gurbani vyakaran" group here? 

Edited September 26, 2015 by N30 S!NGH

[Koi]

Viyakaran is like a fishing net. The deeper your understanding, the wider the net.

But do you really think that you could make a net big enough to cover the entire ocean(Gurbani)?

[Keerat Singh]

Poota mata kee asis, nimak na bisaroo tum ko har har ....

 

The word bisario has an oora with unkar under. Therefore according to gurbani viakaran the translation is first person and pronounced with a bindi. But the correct translation is:

O Son this is your mothers prayer, That you may never forget the Lord Har Har,

If viakaran is followed the translation becomes:

O Son this is your mothers prayer, That I may never forget the Lord Har Har,

Viakaran clearly does not work in this shabad. The translation makes no sense if we use the word "I" rather than "you", 

DDT as far as I understand do not teach viakaran. Although viakaran is great to understand shabads, the above example is proof that it is not final in understanding shabads as being made out. 

 

[SAadmin]

Thats great post keerat singh brother, please post more examples to show gurbani cannot be confined by grammar.

[Keerat Singh]

Viakaran uses spellings to explain how gurbani should be translated and pronounced . 

The word Ramdas comes in gurbani to refer to Guru Ram das ji, sect Ramdas and also the servants of Rab ji. 

The spellings of Ramdas 

Ramdas Sarovar nate - There us no unkar under Ramdas 

Jogi Jati Basino Ramdas - There is no unkar under Ramdas (this is referring to the followers of Ramdas)

Ramdas Sodhu Tilak deeya - there is no unkar under Ramdas (this is referring to Guru Ramdas ji)

Why is it that these three words have different meanings, yet all three has the same spellings? Viakaran will not provide the answer. 

People who follow vaikaran say that Ramdas sarovar nate does not refer to the Guru Ram Das, they say it refers to the lords servant. But if you look at the shabads which refer to the lords servant, they have an unkar under the sasa. For example:

Asee jugat Nanak Ramdas - Such is the way, O Nanak, of the Lords Servant. 

If Ramdas sarovar nate was to mean the Lords servant, surely it would be spelt the same as the above shabad. But it is not. People who follow Viakaran do not believe that by bathing in Ramdas sarovar, sins are erased. They therefore do not follow the trend in shabads which have an unkar under which refers to the Lords servant. 

It gets even more confusing, the following shabad has an unkar under, but it refers to Guru Ramdas ji,

 

Sohe Ramdas gur bal, bhan mil sangat than than karo. 

Why does this shabad have an unkar under? There is other shabads by the Bhatts referring to Guru Ramdas ji with an unkar under. Viakaran provides no answers for this. There is no set spellings for the word Ramdas which would indicate what the meaning is for each shabad with the word Ramdas. 

Edited October 4, 2015 by Keerat Singh

[paapiman]

Poota mata kee asis, nimak na bisaroo tum ko har har ....

 

The word bisario has an oora with unkar under. Therefore according to gurbani viakaran the translation is first person and pronounced with a bindi. But the correct translation is:

O Son this is your mothers prayer, That you may never forget the Lord Har Har,

If viakaran is followed the translation becomes:

O Son this is your mothers prayer, That I may never forget the Lord Har Har,

Viakaran clearly does not work in this shabad. The translation makes no sense if we use the word "I" rather than "you", 

DDT as far as I understand do not teach viakaran. Although viakaran is great to understand shabads, the above example is proof that it is not final in understanding shabads as being made out. 

 

Thanks a lot paaji for the examples.

Parnaam

Bhul chuk maaf

Edited October 3, 2015 by paapiman

[paapiman]

Poota mata kee asis, nimak na bisaroo tum ko har har ....

 

The word bisario has an oora with unkar under. Therefore according to gurbani viakaran the translation is first person and pronounced with a bindi. But the correct translation is:

O Son this is your mothers prayer, That you may never forget the Lord Har Har,

If viakaran is followed the translation becomes:

O Son this is your mothers prayer, That I may never forget the Lord Har Har,

Viakaran clearly does not work in this shabad. The translation makes no sense if we use the word "I" rather than "you", 

DDT as far as I understand do not teach viakaran. Although viakaran is great to understand shabads, the above example is proof that it is not final in understanding shabads as being made out. 

 

Bro, do you know what is the translation for "first person" in Punjabi? Is it "uttam purakh"?

Thanks

Bhul chuk maaf

[Keerat Singh]

It is uttam purakh.

Another point which those who adhere to Gurbani Viakaran fail to mention is that nearly all of Guru Tegh Bahadur jis shabads to do not follow the rules of Vaikaran. 

the main reason people are against Raag Mala is because they say it does not follow Gurbani Viakaran. Such an argument has no weight.  

[amardeep]

Thanks for that Keerat Singh, very interesting reading!

[paapiman]

It is uttam purakh.

Another point which those who adhere to Gurbani Viakaran fail to mention is that nearly all of Guru Tegh Bahadur jis shabads to do not follow the rules of Vaikaran. 

the main reason people are against Raag Mala is because they say it does not follow Gurbani Viakaran. Such an argument has no weight.  

Thanks brother for the info.

Parnaam

Bhul chuk maaf

[paapiman]

In Hindi,

First person is known as Uttam purakh  

Second person is known as Madeyam purakh

Third person is known as Anya purakh

Can someone please confirm that it is the same in Punjabi (Keerat Singh jee already confirmed the first one)?

 

Thanks a lot

Bhul chuk maaf

Edited October 4, 2015 by paapiman

[sarabatam]

bump