Respect for SGPC maryada

[chatanga1]

Chatanga1 you are the one who has reduced the importance of our Guru to that of a penis! 

Why are you so obsessed with penises. You mention them in every post. I have not reduced our Guru to anything. I have simply stated that the physical representation of the Guru has always been male, as the Gurus were themselves. You bring penises into it a lot. Maybe you should have stayed with your husband a little longer?

 

 All other physical 'representation' you said does not matter... they can be black white have pink polka dots, be short, tall, slim, fat, all that matters is if they have a penis.

 

No, they have to be males. Not ladyboys or transgenders. Nice try though.

  So embarassing to see that SInghs out there have reduced our Guru to the importance of his gender only.  This is a good example of how deeply the ingrained hatred of men towards women is... that you actually place the male gender on such a high pedestal that you actually suggested the Gurus were male because the male gender is superior. Self serving lies designed to reinforce this superiority complex you have where you feel you just need to justify why you are better than me.

Rather than prattle on the same point over and over, liike a rat in a wheel, why don't you bring some other noise to the debate. Using emotional rants like "hatred of men towards women is" you are just exposing how shallow and narrow-minded you are. Listen to those echoes in your head.

 

To answer your question about Kashmir, not directly but yes.  By supporting their wives full participation in Sikhi their marriages are stronger.

So you have done no survey to speak of but yes? That's just a opinion by you then isn't it?. It's not a scientific statement, or a statement of fact.

  And dont tell me you dont see the droves of Sikh girls dating and marrying outside the Sikh religion.

I see it, but surely you are not putting that down to females not being part of the Panj Pyare?

You might think is unrealistic...  but if DDT etc had their way and enforced their full ideology in Amritsar, watch what will happen.

This is just your opinion, not borne out by history. Especially in the late 1970s and 1980s when the Taksal was at the vanguard of the Panth. Were more females leaving the Panth or were more taking Pahul, with the Taksal at the forefront?

  These bodies are false and temporary.  My soul and your soul are in fact one in the same.

The body  may be temporary but they are the vehicle to help you connect with Waheguru

. And each and every life-form of the churasi lakh is from the same soul.  Gurbani says "Bhae parapat manukh dehuriya" . What does that mean?

Does this mean you can marry a dog? It has the same soul from the same source as you do.

 

Neo please close this thread... obviously the members on here will never accept Sikh Rehet Maryada. You have members who are so exclusionary to their Dhera thinking, that mainstream Sikhi and even Akal Takht mean nothing to them

Finally the rat has gotten tired of running in the wheel.

even Akal Takht mean nothing to them. 

please tell what Sri Akal Takht Sahib meant to you when you were insulting Dasam Bani, against the direct mandate of Sri Akal Takht Sahib. I said please.

 

[Koi]

Just a small point. Whilst we do respect the Akaal Takht, not every decision made by the people running the Akaal Takht is correct  (I think we all know at least one example).

[kdsingh80]

And dont tell me you dont see the droves of Sikh girls dating and marrying outside the Sikh religion. And it's the men's insistence that the major roles have to be reserved for them only, that is driving this.

Are you kidding majority of sikh women in India marry Hindu men and they do all the rituals. they raise their children as Hindu's . If inequality is the reason then what Hinduism offer them, why like a Submissive Patriarchal wife they raise their children with Husband's religion?

 

And BTW clean shaven handsome sikhs no matter what their views are don't have shortage of any women sikh or non sikh.

Edited October 8, 2015 by kdsingh80

[Singh123456777]

Those bibi's followed DDT rehat maryada.

[Ragmaala]

Man if sant ji had stayed in power for another 10-20 years,  picture of punjab would have been so different.

it is unfortunate sant ji got sucked into the drama of akalis...should have stayed away from these akalis and formed their own party...

[CdnSikhGirl]

Those bibi's followed DDT rehat maryada.

So you are giving example of girls in dire straits leaving one oppressive path to follow one that's a little bit better but still oppressive towards females.  Jarnail Singh actually had the viewpoint that all women should be punished for all time because none stood up to give their heads that day.  That was the reason he gave... not because of some divine reason or that males were considered 'superior' but that since no woman that one day stood up to give her head it means that no woman is worthy and all women are being punished for all time to be excluded from full participation in Sikhi because of those few females that one day.  I respect what he did by fighting tyranny and showing bravery, but he didn't exactly think highly of women. Anyone in an awful situation will gladly trade up to a slightly less awful situation. But DDTs views of women are still that we are forced into subordinate role, not deserving of leadership or authority.  So it's still oppression.  DDT also considers women impure because of menstruation... same old Brahaministic mindset.  Just with a bit less mistreatment and abuse.  

 

Edited October 9, 2015 by Satkirin_Kaur

[paapiman]

 

  9 hours ago, Satkirin_Kaur said:

Chatanga1 you are the one who has reduced the importance of our Guru to that of a penis! 

 

Shameful and disgusting statement.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[Singh123456777]

Satkiran just stop. Just because some things you cannot understand doesn't make them wrong. I recommend you to start learning punjabi and start doing bhagti instead of criticizing stuff that is not easy to understand. Things arent always black and white like how your making it out to be.

 

I recommend everybody who participated on this thread to go and do simran for 10 mins at least. Sometimes enough is enough!

[Singh123456777]

 

 

Shameful and disgusting statement.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

yes it is.

[sukrit kaur]

Actually Chatanga1 you said it has to be physical representation... so what you mean is it has to be gender representation but all else can be totally different? You are essentially saying gender is the only thing which matters about anyone and that only males matter, while females are seen as inferior.  Wow this is how you see Sikhi? Reduced to only caring about what's between someone's legs? Maybe you should start editing the wikipedia page to warn any females away who might be interested, and actually believe the claims of equality, along with all other Sikh sites (save for a few forums).  Maybe many of the Punjabi born women will leave too and eventually men can have it all for themselves. And then in a generation or two it will die out because the women will go somewhere else.  But at the very least someone should start changing all the sites that say women are seen as equals in Sikhi to say that women are seen as inferior second class in Sikhi.  It will save a lot of women the headache.

Gur fateh Satkirin penji!

I think you need to change your views.Please dont think like that!! Please!! Sikhi is not how you are taking.I assure you  that there is 100% equality on any basis in Sikhism.I'm too a Sikh girl.And I've never felt or experienced any kind of discrimination based on my gender whether in family(as all are sikhs),whether in any gurudwara sahib,whether among sikh sangat or any sikh community or here on sikh forum.

You know it's a psychological effect that as whatever we think,whatever we believe in or whatever we strongly support, becomes our imagination and this leads us to take things in the way we think.So,If I too start thinking like you that yes there is discrimination ,I'm a girl ,I 'm this I'm that,other men think so,so naturally and obviously Everything will seem behaving so.You know force of attraction/law of attraction.whatever we think/whatever we attract then that will attract you too.So I think it's just your own imagination or thoughts which are forcing to take the things in this way.

And No There is NO discrimination in Sikhism.I assure you this! 

This is really so embarrasing for whole panth to read"there is discrimination on basis of gender in sikhism".WTH!! We are SIKHS NOT MUSLIMS!!

And I request opposite party here that please try to understand satkirin ji,as we should try to remover her doubt .She is just a victim of bigg misunderstanding and it's our duty/responsibility to correct her in a very humble way!

I again request you satkirin Ji,there is nothing like this in SIKHISM.If there were Male Gurus,then it had its own reasons.Sometime we are so ignorant or moorkh to completely understand a fact.

Please do ardaas! You will certainly be answered!

 

[kdsingh80]

Satkiran ji

 

Lets be frank , The type of 21st century gender equality of western style you are searching in Sikhism , you will hardly find it. Look at JATT vs Khalsa war thread. Khalsa like other martial communnities asked defeated brars to give their daughters in marriage. In other words they were just like other martial communnities who used to force defeated enemies  to give their daughters for marriages.

Edited October 9, 2015 by kdsingh80

[kdsingh80]

Those bibi's followed DDT rehat maryada.

The above pic look like big propaganda as in North India jatts, thakurs , yadav's and few other castes are known to physically attack Dalits but hardly Brahmins attack them as their numbers are very small. There is good chance that these girls are from Mazbhi sikh background and were oppressed by Jatts but later on propaganda machinery changed the culprits to Brahmins

 

Any link to above story is aprreciated

Edited October 9, 2015 by kdsingh80

[jaikaara]

5 pages of trash ...!! N30 bha ji yaar tussa kujh karo ja forum nu pehnji de hawale kar deyo...

[CdnSikhGirl]

Gur fateh Satkirin penji!

I think you need to change your views.Please dont think like that!! Please!! Sikhi is not how you are taking.I assure you  that there is 100% equality on any basis in Sikhism.I'm too a Sikh girl.And I've never felt or experienced any kind of discrimination based on my gender whether in family(as all are sikhs),whether in any gurudwara sahib,whether among sikh sangat or any sikh community or here on sikh forum.

You know it's a psychological effect that as whatever we think,whatever we believe in or whatever we strongly support, becomes our imagination and this leads us to take things in the way we think.So,If I too start thinking like you that yes there is discrimination ,I'm a girl ,I 'm this I'm that,other men think so,so naturally and obviously Everything will seem behaving so.You know force of attraction/law of attraction.whatever we think/whatever we attract then that will attract you too.So I think it's just your own imagination or thoughts which are forcing to take the things in this way.

And No There is NO discrimination in Sikhism.I assure you this!

This is really so embarrasing for whole panth to read"there is discrimination on basis of gender in sikhism".WTH!! We are SIKHS NOT MUSLIMS!!

And I request opposite party here that please try to understand satkirin ji,as we should try to remover her doubt .She is just a victim of bigg misunderstanding and it's our duty/responsibility to correct her in a very humble way!

I again request you satkirin Ji,there is nothing like this in SIKHISM.If there were Male Gurus,then it had its own reasons.Sometime we are so ignorant or moorkh to completely understand a fact.

Please do ardaas! You will certainly be answered!

 

Bhen Ji I too thought same as you... I always thought Sikhi treated males and females equally and did not discriminate.... even where I took Amrit and the family I married into thinks males and female are equal and the whole area practices this equality and follows Sikh Rehet Maryada. 

But then I arrived at this forum where I first encountered 'Singhs' telling me I can't do certain seva (for no other reason than my gender) that the Sikh Rehet Maryada is wrong for giving women same rights as Sikh men, suggesting that Sikh wives deserve less respect from their husbands than their husbands deserve from them (Paapiman) and that a good Sikh woman will 'bow' to her husband because she acknowledges this higher place and status he has over her (again Paapiman), that women are supposed to be 'HOMELY' and submissive / subordinate to men's authority (Raagmala), and now even suggesting that the Gurus were only all males because the female gender is inherently inferior (Chatangi1). Also suggestions that the only physial trait which matters about the Panj Pyaras is that  they were male, thus suggesting that gender is the most important feature about humans above all else, and even more reinforcing the idea that being male makes you somehow superior (Again Chatanga1), then we have the statement that it's 'Indic custom' to put women beneath men into a lesser and subordinate role and he likes having women in that role beneath him so much that he gets angry if someone 'pokes their nose' in this good thing he has going (Jaikara).  And other threads stating that women are 'impure' spiritually because they were given (a curse by Waheguru?) Menstruation.  Women are weaker, dumber, more lustful, etc than men (Paapiman).  Women should not be consulted on decisions (Paapiman).  

So after reading this whole thread (and others on this site you get this summary:

Sikhi (or the version the Singhs on here are promoting) sees women as thus? 

- Women are seen as in a lesser, subordinate, subservient, role than men 
- Sikh wives deserve less respect from their husbands than they are required to give their husbands
- Sikh wives are to prostrate before their husbands because their Husbands have such higher status over them they are to be seen as 'Gods' over them
- Sikh women are impure because of menstruation and so should be even further restricted from seva 
- The Gurus were all males so therefore the male gender must be superior, so Sikh males deserve more privilege than Sikh women because of this
- Women's bodies are incapable, weak
- Women are seen as more lustful and immoral
- Women are seen as 'bad advisors' and should not have say in decision making
- Women should not be in leadership roles

If you agree with the above 'conditions' placed on you Sukrit Bhen Ji, there is NO WAY you can't feel discriminated against.  If you disagree with it, then you too also find something wrong with the version of Sikhi these supposed 'Singhs' are promoting.  They are using Brahaminical ideals to paint women as impure, lustful, deviant, less capable, and to force the idea that women should be in subordinate roles to them.  Whenever they read Gurbani they always look through a Brahaminical lens.  (Seriously, read Laws of Manu regarding women and you will see what I mean).  Read Gurbani not through those lenses. You are not inferior them. You do not deserve to be treated with any less respect than a man. You have the same soul as them as deserve to have full rights to practice your religion fully.  

Thankfully I know that a good majority of Singhs do not actually think like this.  But enough do that we have Babas like Hari Singh Rhandawa doing full kathas on why women are impure and should be disallowed to do seva of SGGSJ at all (because you know, you could start to bleed at any time and desecrate SGGSJ).  There are dheras following this suggestion, that disallow women to do any seva except for langar (because you know, women's place is in the kitchen chained to a stove only) and all the seva which is seen as having any authority or even religious knowledge is reserved only for men. They keep women even from participating in Akhand Paaths (certain DDT run Gurdwaras).  This gives the impression that women are not knowledgeable, that women are incapable so the only thing they can do is menial tasks in the kitchen.  They use Dasam Granth as justification why women should be seen as being so lowly.  

I never even knew this side of Sikhi until I came to this forum...

 

Edited October 9, 2015 by Satkirin_Kaur

[Koi]

Where does Baba Hari Singh Ji say that a woman can NEVER do seva of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji? I don't think he said that at all. 

[CdnSikhGirl]

Where does Baba Hari Singh Ji say that a woman can NEVER do seva of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji? I don't think he said that at all.

Its not in those videos... it was the original katha that the women were speaking about which occurred a couple years ago in Surrey (and why they were understandably so angry). I know someone who was present that very day, and what he had suggested was that since menstruation is impure, and since its not predictable the exact start time that women should look at doing seva other than that of SGGSJ in general.  Because she could think she is not on a period day and start unknowingly while sitting on tabia and hence desecrate SGGSJ.  So he thinks women should never do seva of SGGSJ leaving women to only do the menial seva like cooking because his thinking means women should not be Granthi (how could she? if she were to follow what he suggested it would be impossible) should not participate in Akhand Paaths, should not take hukamnama, etc. 

In other words he sees maybe not women themselves as being impure but he definitely sees them as 'carriers' of impurity, which means women are what? Being punished by Waheguru since men don't have this 'impurity' about them?  That men are superior because they don't have any such 'impurity' (aside from the normnal bodily functions we all possess) But he sees women as having this extra 'yucky' thing which he sees as impure that all women are forced to carry with them.  The point is Gurbani actually speaks against such nonsense as ritual purity, but all the dherawalla baba following sheep just believe this nonesense and see women in the same way.

Edited October 9, 2015 by Satkirin_Kaur

[CdnSikhGirl]

After asking a respected and well known Giani Ji about the 'see husband as God' thing and also the comments about the reason women follow / hold the palla during anand karaj, and issue of Panj Pyara seva, and kirtan at darbar sahib etc., this is the response he gave. And with this, I am not saying any more on these topics.  I knew anyway what the answers were based on Gurbani, but I have gotten confirmation from him (yes, a Singh - who is a well known and respected Giani who travels around the world doing lectures on Gurbani at his own cost as seva to the panth) and I know I can't change the narrowminded and misogynist views of others.  I will live my life following SGGSJ, our only living Guru and not Brahaminical interpretations of it, and will abide by the Sikh Rehet Maryada, the only RM accepted by Akal Takht. You can do what you want... but I refuse to let you guys take me out of "chardikala" anymore and I refuse to think of myself as 'lesser' than you or deserving less than you. 

My questions...

His response...

[chatanga1]

So you are giving example of girls in dire straits leaving one oppressive path to follow one that's a little bit better but still oppressive towards females. 

So a woman who is in dire straits, becomes a Sikh but cannot be part of the panj piyare, and her situation is only a "little" better? Good to see how your brain works.

 

 I respect what he did by fighting tyranny and showing bravery, but he didn't exactly think highly of women.

You come to such a conclusion because Jarnail Singh didn't agree with women being part of panj pyarey?

[chatanga1]

even where I took Amrit and the family I married into thinks males and female are equal and the whole area practices this equality and follows Sikh Rehet Maryada.

You never clarified whether the amrit you took involved reading a famous part of the CharitroPakhyan Granth, which you doubt. Can you clarify?

and now even suggesting that the Gurus were only all males because the female gender is inherently inferior (Chatangi1). Also suggestions that the only physial trait which matters about the Panj Pyaras is that  they were male, thus suggesting that gender is the most important feature about humans above all else, and even more reinforcing the idea that being male makes you somehow superior (Again Chatanga1),

Don't twist my words. I never said anything about being inferior. The fact is as it stands. No women were chosen to be Guru even though there were outstanding females present.

Although i'm glad you have left the low-caste argument out because you knew you were wrong.

So after reading this whole thread (and others on this site you get this summary:

Only a person who casts doubts on their Guru would get this summary. And you have cast doubts on your Guru repeatedly.

 

If you agree with the above 'conditions' placed on you Sukrit Bhen Ji, there is NO WAY you can't feel discriminated against.

If Sukrit is content with the maryada of her Guru, maybe you should be looking to follow the same. Instead of having shanka.

Thankfully I know that a good majority of Singhs do not actually think like this.

What survey have you done to know this? Please present some data so we can see. Otherwise like I said earlier, it's just your opinion. And opinions of nindaks count for nothing.

 They use Dasam Granth as justification why women should be seen as being so lowly. 

Can you please clarify then when you took amrit whether any of Dasam Granth was used?

I never even knew this side of Sikhi until I came to this forum...

18 years of research and you didn't know this? Your research has been poor, and those guiding you too. this forum has seen people like you on it before. Arguing the same trash over and over.

[chatanga1]

After asking a respected and well known Giani Ji

Maybe in his local area, he may be well known/respected. But very few are more respected and well known than Gyani Sant SIngh Maskeen.

But why ask him about why some Sampdayes have certain maryada. Will he know the reasoning for them?

Wouldn't the best people to ask be those who have the maryada so they can explain themselves?

Why go to people who may already be in oppostion to their views?

Isn't that like seeking the answer that suits you, or your agenda, rather the seeking the answer?

[SAadmin]

5 pages of trash ...!! N30 bha ji yaar tussa kujh karo ja forum nu pehnji de hawale kar deyo...
 

 

Yaar ki kara mein ? Lol..jaie topic lock kara ta saipa jai na kara taa saipa ..mein chalaya vacation chh hehe

Edited October 9, 2015 by N30 S!NGH

[chatanga1]

After asking a respected and well known Giani Ji

Did you ask him if it was ok marry someone of your gender, seeing as the soul is all that matters?

Or if it was ok to marry an animal, because their souls are also the same as ours?

 

After asking a respected and well known Giani Ji

Can you send me Giani Ji's number, there are some questions i would like to ask him.

[chatanga1]

 but I have gotten confirmation from him (yes, a Singh - who is a well known and respected Giani who travels around the world doing lectures on Gurbani at his own cost as seva to the panth)

His response...

Concerning number 3, Ask Giani Ji to go to Sri Darbar Sahib and ask for time to do kirtan with a group of women. And then post his response here.

[SAadmin]

Actually in all fairness, women should have been allowed at darbar sahib to do kirtan right after 3ho women were allowed to do kirtan at darbar sahib under supervision of baba nihal Singh Ji.

[CdnSikhGirl]

Chatanga you just don't get it do you? Gurus were NOT humans that were 'chosen'. In fact all of the Gurus carried the same one light... hence why they are all referred to as 'Nanak' No human was 'chosen' to 'become' Guru (and least of all just because they were male... ) The ONE Guru chose to come to earth in a male form, in a time when females were seen so lowly that a female never would have been listened to or taken seriously, and then in that male form spread the message that females are equal.  And yes it is related to caste because discrimination is discrimination it doesn't matter what the reason behind it is.  ALL discrimination is wrong. And please don't bring procreation into it.  Biological functions during procreation have nothing to do with what seva someone is capable of.  

It's far more likely that Sukrit Kaur Bhenji has just not encountered the discrimination... she said she has never felt discriminated in her family. She has not said that she or her family follows DDT or similar ideology, or even which RM she follows.  

You are free to stay in your exclusionary version of Sikhi.  I am free to follow mainstream.  End of story... we have to part agreeing to disagree.  

As for Darbar Sahib it's atrocious how women are kept from kirtan, palki sahib seva, washing sanctum sanctorum etc when there is nothing stating they are disallowed.  And you know who the biggest opposers are of women doing any seva there? DDT and Sant Samaj are the ones who lodged a complaint and kicked a stink when Akal Takht declared openly several years ago that women were not barred from kirtan there.  

Actually though, a Bibi did do kirtan there indirectly (recently)... Bhai Sahib Bahi Nirmale Singh Khalsa Pipli Wale (artist) did kirtan there - with his sister Bibi Arvinder Pal Kaur backing him and she also did a shabad on her own.   This was last year I think and they too caused a brief ruckus because I don't think anyone knew in advance that she was accompanying him.  Anyway she too has her own album and I highly recomend looking her up because she has an amazing voice (whether or not you agree with their background being neeldharis) fact is they both have amazing voices and kirtan is kirtan... 

Edited October 9, 2015 by Satkirin_Kaur