Sikhism going universal/world wide as its essence message but are we ready?

[dalsingh101]

Coming back to the topic, one thing we lacked in parchar was depth of sikhi in english out in west as amardeep singh pointed out earlier.

For example- Whilst indic religions such as hinduism, buddhism, zen, mahayana, advaita has bought its essence message on youtube either via meditation, meditation tracks, meditation visuals, lecture, seminars, discourses we totally lack behind. 

 Just give it a quick try, go on youtube type in om, you will see countless youtube meditation/chanting om tracks which is loved by all viewers as its rightly described as universal sound where as our Ikongkar or oan / vahiguru meditative tracks are nowhere to be seen.

Anyway, for last few years i tried my best by maharaj kirpa to bring sikhi to universal meditation platform as well on youtube by bringing sikh meditative mantras, mixing audio/videos. Check it out here: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC-CU7u_LjUhwBh6y0CF-AhA/videos

We need big improvement on parchar on area dept of sikhi. Unfortunately, basic of sikhi parchar has limitations just does not not cut it as far as exploring deeper finer layers of sikhi ....we need full framework of depth of sikhi.  

You now what it is (in my opinion), we've got a imbalanced focus on politics and social issues (for arguably understandable reasons), and the meditative aspects of the faith seem like some small appended thing to that, rather than the main deal. 

We do struggle with balance the other way round too with those who emphasise the meditative/spiritual often being pacisfists, or people who routinely ignore pressing social/politic issues we face because it is mentally too troubling for them. 

[amardeep]

Basics of SIkhi From BBC radio today including a recent convert

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8Wnf0ZV-p4&feature=youtu.be

Edited October 25, 2015 by amardeep

[jaikaara]

Coming back to the topic, one thing we lacked in parchar was depth of sikhi in english out in west as amardeep singh pointed out earlier.

For example- Whilst indic religions such as hinduism, buddhism, zen, mahayana, advaita has bought its essence message on youtube either via meditation, meditation tracks, meditation visuals, lecture, seminars, discourses we totally lack behind. 

 Just give it a quick try, go on youtube type in om, you will see countless youtube meditation/chanting om tracks which is loved by all viewers as its rightly described as universal sound where as our Ikongkar or oan / vahiguru meditative tracks are nowhere to be seen.

Anyway, for last few years i tried my best by maharaj kirpa to bring sikhi to universal meditation platform as well on youtube by bringing sikh meditative mantras, mixing audio/videos. Check it out here: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC-CU7u_LjUhwBh6y0CF-AhA/videos

We need big improvement on parchar on area dept of sikhi. Unfortunately, basic of sikhi parchar has limitations just does not not cut it as far as exploring deeper finer layers of sikhi ....we need full framework of depth of sikhi.  

It all depends on what we project, the people who do parchar do they demonstrate the key points.

We keep on going we are Sikhs we dont cut kes ...but do we tell them the power of Mool Mantar ? How many Gurdwaras have mool mantar meditation sessions ? The USP we cash on now is the langar ..but we need to show how Sikhi can change your life.

[Ragmaala]

I was listening to Sant Ishar Singh Ji Rara Sahib last night.  The main mission of Guru Nanak is Naam.  Nanak Ke Ghar Keval Naam.

So I believe this aspect needs to be emphasized the recitation of Guru Mantra for all Sikhs and non-sikhs. And as the naam becomes fruitful, the negative aspects of ones life will be washed away. So does not matter whether the person is punjabi, non-punjabi, sikh or non-sikh, white, black, chinese, the recitation of Guru Mantra will bear fruit, the person regardless of their identity will get clarity in their lives and start their own journey.

 Instead of confusion, we need to keep it simple. Nanak ke ghar keval naam.

satnam.

[dalsingh101]

I was listening to Sant Ishar Singh Ji Rara Sahib last night.  The main mission of Guru Nanak is Naam.  Nanak Ke Ghar Keval Naam.

So I believe this aspect needs to be emphasized the recitation of Guru Mantra for all Sikhs and non-sikhs. And as the naam becomes fruitful, the negative aspects of ones life will be washed away. So does not matter whether the person is punjabi, non-punjabi, sikh or non-sikh, white, black, chinese, the recitation of Guru Mantra will bear fruit, the person regardless of their identity will get clarity in their lives and start their own journey.

 Instead of confusion, we need to keep it simple. Nanak ke ghar keval naam.

satnam.

I agree, in reality what we've inherited is what you've said above with a martial tradition. So the above should also come with physical/martial training. for completeness. 

 

No more kudhoo gianis. 

[amardeep]

I talked to a UK Nihang once who said that what Sikhs are doing at present - is good - but in a sense not Gurmat oriented. Most groups doing awareness focus on talking about the Turban, the 5's and the life stories about the Gurus. But this is NOT what the Guru's were doing. When Guru Nanak travelled the world he did not travel around telling people stories about his life and why he wore a turban. He taught them how to meditate and discussed their experiences of bhagti.. This is what Sikhs should focus on when doing parchaar.... There is nothing wrong in what Basics of Sikhi and other are doing, - but we loose the plot if all we do is tell stories and explain concepts.... Its all about the naam

Edited October 26, 2015 by amardeep

[dalsingh101]

So most of us are agreeing that at the core of Sikhi lies meditation; but a lot of apnay don't even  know this because we've been bogged down in identity politics for so long. We need to rectify this.

If applied correctly Sikhi should be a global movement that spreads the practice of naam simran across the globe. 

[SAadmin]

Yes we don't relay meditative perception of us to wider public for example my wife sri lankan friend and husband came to our house and saw huge sant isher singh ji rara sahib picture meditating in our living room, they were surprised and say- you guys follow meditation too? I was like our dharam full premises on naam/meditation..they were surprised.

Our gurdwaras/modern day parcharikhs have literally failed us. No wonder people who have spiritual thirst are  are going to other sub par spiritual sects like radhaswamis/nirankaris/ etc.

[CdnSikhGirl]

So most of us are agreeing that at the core of Sikhi lies meditation; but a lot of apnay don't even  know this because we've been bogged down in identity politics for so long. We need to rectify this.

If applied correctly Sikhi should be a global movement that spreads the practice of naam simran across the globe.

Sikhi is about personal journey transcnding the physical and realizing truth of ONEness. It's a spiritual journey, not a physical one. Sangat and identity is important, but more important is the actual journey to find the divine within yourself.

But looking on this forum especially, and in society in general Sikhi seems to be plagued with, which RM is THE RM, focusing on the RULES over the spiritual practice, arguments of who is more Pious based on what RM they follow, and yes like it or not gender is a huge issue in this mess. If you want Sikhi to spread, especially the message of spiritual journey and finding that ONEness, you can't then propagate a rule system that puts one gender beneath other.  Call it what you want (western feminism or whatever negative label you want to put on it) but people will not embrace anything that makes them feel lesser or beneath others.  You can tell them its about the meditation and simran etc and that the goal is surpassing this life and finding ONEness, and then tell them straight after that they are not allowed to do somethings because of their gender, you won't win anyone over.  And then beyond the gender issues, arguring over how many banis to recite in the morning, who must lead who in the marriage ceremony and why, arguing over what physical attributes (instead of the more important spiritual attributes) those doing seva as Panj Pyaras must have, arguing over whether women are impure or not, arguing over ragmaala. Some of you holding which ever set of rules you follow over others to make a statement of somehow being more pious than others. Accusing others of blasphme or insulting the Gurus because they follow different set of rules or rituals. Looking for gurbani to twist to put people down and justify even more divisions, instead of looking to Gurbani to uplift anyone. 

Good Luck... The message of ONEness and equality has been lost.  The message of not following mindless rituals has been lost.  The message of seeing the divine light in everyone and ALL Sikhs giving of themselves selflessly has been lost.  It's become all about Politics, Power, bickering with each other, and superiority. 

This is why I have to distance myself from the politics.  I do simran every day, I listen nitnem every day, I a, always contemplating reality, nature of the universe, ONEness, seeing everyone as equal, volunteering all time to help others.  And then I come here and see all this bickering, everyone is ME ME ME, I, I, I... I'm better than you because I follow this RM, I'm better than you because I'm male etc.  It's all the same thing. 

Forget the ME ME ME or the I I I. There is no bloody YOU or ME!!!! THIS IS THE WHOLE POINT!  Until eveyrone can start to see beyond this, how do expect to start spreading Sikhi as a meditation / personal path to liberation??

Edited October 27, 2015 by Satkirin_Kaur

[dalsingh101]

I talked to a UK Nihang once who said that what Sikhs are doing at present - is good - but in a sense not Gurmat oriented. Most groups doing awareness focus on talking about the Turban, the 5's and the life stories about the Gurus. But this is NOT what the Guru's were doing. When Guru Nanak travelled the world he did not travel around telling people stories about his life and why he wore a turban. He taught them how to meditate and discussed their experiences of bhagti.. This is what Sikhs should focus on when doing parchaar.... There is nothing wrong in what Basics of Sikhi and other are doing, - but we loose the plot if all we do is tell stories and explain concepts.... Its all about the naam

I think one of the main reasons the above takes place is to satisfy the tribal instincts of a lot of pendu apnay. It's easier doing the above than having more sophisticated, and wide ranging discussions and debates along the lines of haumai and simran of naam. 

 

Instead we get a strong focus on the more entry level shariat aspects of the faith and don't move on from that. 

 

Then if we start using deeper Indic concepts to frame things (just like our Gurus did), you've got that whole paranoid Hindoophobia thing kicking in. 

[Ragmaala]

The other side of the coin is that if we do not have kes, turban, rehit, amrit and politics, our identity will be lost as a community. So this is also essential part. That is why Guru Nanak came in 10th form and concluded with the Khalsa.

Obviously ,bhagti comes first, then shakti automatically follows.

But yes, we do not preach Naam Simran a lot. Not like guys like Deepak, Sadhguru, Adyashanti, Eckart, Sivananada, etc etc.  We had Harbhajan SIngh Yogi. He really explained the mechanics behind mantra chanting & gurbani recitation. But after him, I do not see a great Sikh leader in the international politics.

 

ps. the gender issue has been mentioned again.  please do not hijack this topic again lol

 

[CdnSikhGirl]

The other side of the coin is that if we do not have kes, turban, rehit, amrit and politics, our identity will be lost as a community. So this is also essential part. That is why Guru Nanak came in 10th form and concluded with the Khalsa.

Obviously ,bhagti comes first, then shakti automatically follows.

But yes, we do not preach Naam Simran a lot. Not like guys like Deepak, Sadhguru, Adyashanti, Eckart, Sivananada, etc etc.  We had Harbhajan SIngh Yogi. He really explained the mechanics behind mantra chanting & gurbani recitation. But after him, I do not see a great Sikh leader in the international politics.

 

ps. the gender issue has been mentioned again.  please do not hijack this topic again lol

 

Only insomuch as it's part and parcel of the whole bickering thing. 

The ONLY thing we need to remember... as Khalsa we are ONE.  There's a reason there is a UNIFORM.  There are no different grades of Khalsa ---- There is only ONE KHALSA.  We are ALL ONE.  Let's PLEASE PLEASE try to focus on on that!

 

[SAadmin]

The other side of the coin is that if we do not have kes, turban, rehit, amrit and politics, our identity will be lost as a community. So this is also essential part. That is why Guru Nanak came in 10th form and concluded with the Khalsa.

Obviously ,bhagti comes first, then shakti automatically follows.

But yes, we do not preach Naam Simran a lot. Not like guys like Deepak, Sadhguru, Adyashanti, Eckart, Sivananada, etc etc.  We had Harbhajan SIngh Yogi. He really explained the mechanics behind mantra chanting & gurbani recitation. But after him, I do not see a great Sikh leader in the international politics.

 

ps. the gender issue has been mentioned again.  please do not hijack this topic again lol

 

I totally agree with everything you said except politics aspect..i may be wrong in this but i really don't think politics played now at panthic circle has anything to do with miri aspect of sikhi. Politics played now is tribal punjabi culture eccentric not very high level like chankya rajniti. And unfortunately its not a new thing, its pretty old because our misals went through historical wars that we never got a chance to sit down and look at the miri aspect deeply intertwined with piri. I am not sure if soraj parkash granth talks about this or not.

[SAadmin]

Only insomuch as it's part and parcel of the whole bickering thing. 

The ONLY thing we need to remember... as Khalsa we are ONE.  There's a reason there is a UNIFORM.  There are no different grades of Khalsa ---- There is only ONE KHALSA.  We are ALL ONE.  Let's PLEASE PLEASE try to focus on on that!

 

Yes we are all ONE from absolute point of view but sikhi is also relative-sargun which has diverse aspects of divine one has bhagti and other one is shakti. Bhagti denotes  humility of devotee - submission to God-Ishat/Sant/Sadh sangat and other one is shakti-chandi - sword/ feminine energy, khalsa mother glorified as traditions in hazoor sahib.

Our lack of understanding of sikhi via multi traditions/aspects of divine causes all kind of issues. We should not view sikhi with equality brush/feminist/abhramic mindset.

I have mentioned this before but i will say it again - yes female is seen maya-illusory from relative point of view in sikhi as an stage to transcendent but same female/feminine energy is also glorified as shakti-energy/mother of earth an aspect of divine. So thats why i found your stance on sri guru granth sahib ji, sri dasam granth on just basis of crazy western feminism non sense-  quite hypocritical and quite out of depth.

[CdnSikhGirl]

Yes we are all ONE from absolute point of view but sikhi is also relative-sargun which has diverse aspects of divine one has bhagti and other one is shakti. Bhagti denotes  humility of devotee - submission to God-Ishat/Sant/Sadh sangat and other one is shakti-chandi - sword/ feminine energy, khalsa mother glorified as traditions in hazoor sahib.

Our lack of understanding of sikhi via multi traditions/aspects of divine causes all kind of issues. We should not view sikhi with equality brush/feminist/abhramic mindset.

I have mentioned this before but i will say it again - yes female is seen maya-illusory from relative point of view in sikhi as an stage to transcendent but same female/feminine energy is also glorified as shakti-energy/mother of earth an aspect of divine. So thats why i found your stance on sri guru granth sahib ji, sri dasam granth on just basis of crazy western feminism non sense-  quite hypocritical and quite out of depth.

Masculine / Feminine principles have nothing to do with physical gender... as everything posseses both.  It has nothing to do with giveing males more privileges - especially since males also contain feminine principle.  My point was, regardless of physical differences, no Sikhs should be looked down upon or given less privileges.  Everything must be in harmony. Heirarchy of any kind is NOT harmony.  Harmony results from equilibrium. (caste, deifferent sects, people thinking they are better or more pious than others based on how rigid rules they can follow etc).  None of that actually brings us closer to realization of oneness.  In fact it has been said that the whole world has been supressing the feminine principle and thats why we are in such a mess.  Note that bringing out feminine principle has nothing to do with forcing women to be stay at home mothers and servile to men.  Men also posses feminine principle just as women posses masculine principle. In fact these principles are only even called masculine or feminine because we labeled them as such. In reality, they are just two halves of one whole.

There is no 'crazy' western feminism nonesense... by making that statement you are condoning putting women into less privileged positions.  My point of ONEness is that until we can surpass the urge to supress some while elevating others (for whatever reason) we will never see the truth.  Instead Sikhs are bickering over who's RM is the best, sometimes to the point of nastiness (so-called etc) bickering over banis, bickering over who is more pious because of all this.  In reality someone who doesn't recite any banis at all (and may or may not be Sikh) could have found the truth because they choose instead to focus inward on their own spiritual progression instead of trying to be better than others or make a show of how pious they are, or cook up reasons why they deserve more privileges in their religion. 

 

 

 

[Singh123456777]

Bhakti and shakti should go hand in hand but the problem is that either people are too Bhakti oriented and throw away bana and shastar etc or people are too shakti oriented and just only wear bana and shastars and don't care about Bhakti. There has to be a balance 

Edited October 27, 2015 by Singh123456777

[dalsingh101]

If you want Sikhi to spread, especially the message of spiritual journey and finding that ONEness, you can't then propagate a rule system that puts one gender beneath other.

That's a pile of gibberish. If it were true Islam wouldn't be spreading so rapidly. And it's not just women forced or coerced into it as you seem to keep suggesting.

 

Anyway, enough please, please don't derail this topic with your own western feminism baggage. 

 

PS - I am not justifying female oppression here, just highlighting the fact that other religions are spreading fast with a infinitely more oppressive attitude towards females than Sikh 'patriarchal' males can be accused of. 

 

Again, what certain posts are confirming is that we are going to get serious, internal attempts to derail any Sikh movement with the agenda of new converts - primary people for this right now are white converts bringing in western feminism with it's deeply ingrained notion of female victims, which most of us Panjabi males know damn well doesn't reflect the headstrong females we have in our community.

And they are trying to normalise homosexuality too. 

Edited October 27, 2015 by dalsingh101

[amardeep]

I think the 3HO are the only ones at present who do what Guru Nanak did - they travel around and teach spiritual practices (whether naam simran or yoga). In their parchaar they dont focus much on stories and rules.

[CdnSikhGirl]

I think the 3HO are the only ones at present who do what Guru Nanak did - they travel around and teach spiritual practices (whether naam simran or yoga). In their parchaar they dont focus much on stories and rules.

There are those who even argue about including yoga during kirtan being wrong too.  

Put it this way.  If Punjabis can not even agree amongst themselves what Sikhi is or isn't.  (AKJ, DDT, SANT SAMAJ, NAMDARI, NIHANG, RADHASWANMI, NEELDHARI, Etc.) and then those who do not even follow any of the above but rather just Sikhi.... and follow SRM.  Then how can you even say anything about groups outside of that, and speak against (for example) the ooohhh hhhh ugly 'western feminism' (what is that anyway?)  ???  There are Sikh groups who already treat women as absolute equals where there is no seva restricted to only male privilege.  And these groups which ALREADY EXIST are actually PUNJABI SIKHS!  So NOTHING is being 'changed' to fit any 'western feminism' ideas... These are PUNJABI SIKHS!!!  I can go to AKJ, and I won't hear a single utterance about nasty 'western feminism' because they don't consider treating all Sikhs equally as being any sort 'western feminism' nastiness.  Treating people equally is just being a decent human being! A HUMANIST Like Guru Nanak Dev Ji was!  And not just AKJ but MANY MANY Gurdwaras that do not follow certain sects.  You can't take one sect's views and then say I am trying to change Sikhi to fit my 'western feminism' ideas when first of all I have not changed anything and second there are PUNJABI SIKHS who are practicing equality and do not see it as 'feminism' at al!!!  Oh and btw, for all of you who continually put AKJ down...they do focus HIGHLY on the spiritual... I think they more than 3HO balance both martial and spiritual aspects.  I don't get why some of you hate them so much! 

 

 

[SAadmin]

The reason many akj females don't see the influence of western feminism because they are in it thats why, you can only see western feminism influence or any influence if you are outside of its realm with full 360 eagle eye perception. Read about how keski being kakar came about- who bought it and how the person was revisionist influenced by western protestant abhramic thought. Western feminism is off bred revolt movement against church protestant repressive misogynist notions.

Lets stick to the topic, we can discuss it on thread of thirteen reforms of panch khalsa divan.

 

 

Edited October 27, 2015 by N30 S!NGH

[dalsingh101]

I tell you what's coming next from certain quarters:

Transgender Amritdharis (or whatever you call those people who used to be one sex and now are another). 

[JustAnotherSingh]

I agree a lot what's being said in this thread. 

My personal experience is that I grew up as a mona w/out any view of what Sikhi was. I did not like Gurdware at all as they appeared to just be political rallies for Khalistan and places where I was judged for cutting hair. Ironically, 3HO people as well as really spiritual Singh's (some of whom were Namdhari I think) inspired me to learn more about Sikhi and its spirituality, and as I got more into the faith, I started keeping hair years ago. In the end of the day, I came out of it disagreeing with a *lot* of what 3HO had to say, after doing my own personal reading. But I feel as if too many people isolate the Sikh identity and martial spirit, combine that with their personal Jatt-values, and say that's what Sikhi is about without recognizing the very strong inner-spiritual core. Bani defines the bana, the spiritual values are what gives power to the identity. 

Edited October 28, 2015 by JustAnotherSingh

[dalsingh101]

I agree a lot what's being said in this thread. 

My personal experience is that I grew up as a mona w/out any view of what Sikhi was. I did not like Gurdware at all as they appeared to just be political rallies for Khalistan and places where I was judged for cutting hair. Ironically, 3HO people as well as really spiritual Singh's (some of whom were Namdhari I think) inspired me to learn more about Sikhi and its spirituality, and as I got more into the faith, I started keeping hair years ago. In the end of the day, I came out of it disagreeing with a *lot* of what 3HO had to say, after doing my own personal reading. But I feel as if too many people isolate the Sikh identity and martial spirit, combine that with their personal Jatt-values, and say that's what Sikhi is about without recognizing the very strong inner-spiritual core. Bani defines the bana, the spiritual values are what gives power to the identity. 

I was similar growing up. All emphasis on the macho warrior traditions. Then one day it dawned on me with Waheguru ji's kirpa, all of the warrior stuff was just to protect the spiritual core. 

 

Without it we just become overbearing fudhoos, which is why we have so many of them in our society. 

[JustAnotherSingh]

I was similar growing up. All emphasis on the macho warrior traditions. Then one day it dawned on me with Waheguru ji's kirpa, all of the warrior stuff was just to protect the spiritual core. 

 

Without it we just become overbearing fudhoos, which is why we have so many of them in our society. 

Bingo.  

At the same time, I concede there's a flip side of the coin that isn't optimal either. I'm talking the "liberal" Sikhs you often find on social media who think Sikhi is all about "tolerance bro," and sharing shitty image macros with fake quotes from Baba Nanak on them. Also the types who will go on about how "turban and hair are irrelevant in the modern world, just be a good person" (as if there were no good people without turban and beard historically and as if the purpose of turban and beard is to be a good person). They're not really informed about the spirituality of Sikhi either for that matter, but something about them puts me off. In the similar manner that way too many fighter-Jatt and Jathebandi-types, even historically, isolated one aspect of Guru Gobind Singh's philosophy (martial spirit and discipline/codes of conduct) and kind of run with only that, oblivious to his and other Gurus' teachings, there are quite a few of these people who particularly enhance one aspect of Guru Nanak's philosophy (tolerance, undermining of religious institutions/identity) and run with only that. I suppose the aspect people capitalize on depends quite a bit on their personal experience growing up, whether it's a rich suburb in a modern Western country or a 19th century pind in Punjab, as they'll mold Sikhi to fit that lifestyle. Both groups need to recognize that the aspects that they collapse on are indeed crucial to overall Sikh thought, but have a periphery of supporting ideals and philosophy to give them real power+significance. 

Edited October 28, 2015 by JustAnotherSingh

[dalsingh101]

Man, that was articulated very well!