Sikhism going universal/world wide as its essence message but are we ready?

[SAadmin]

Starting from 3HO, baba virsa singh in the past - 3ho currently, basic of sikhi-  Sikhism or aspects of sikhism - meditation, external appearance have gone totally world wide with converts to sikhism  from non punjabi background but real question is, are we (native to sikhism) ready to accept various variations of sikhs sitting at different different spiritual development level/ various interpretations of gurbani, diverse various direct experience with gurbani?

Is it really an requirement for a Sikh to have punjabi/indic underpinning? Contrary to gurmat ideals, it appears that what it seems like after seeing bridges interaction gap between native sikhs and new sikhs from various diverse race backgrounds?

Looking at deeply at deep layers, actual essence of gurmat, its totally out of traditional punjabi psychology box or any other box. It's out of totally different dimension- fresh perspective - gyan khand mein gyan parchand- pure ever fresh (moment to moment) cognitive intuitive perspective- of turiya.

If we leave historical aspect aside for a moment and see sikhs of non native origin, then there is definitely common ground which is undivided spirit- jot(shabad gyan) real self in all of us and if we go by that, we can surely accept everyone, include everyone who is connected to sikhi or aspects of sikhi which is supported by underlining reality- eternal sikhi - aad such, jugad sach, hai bhi sach, nanak hosi bhi sach.

Edited October 20, 2015 by N30 S!NGH

[CdnSikhGirl]

I used to think Sikhi was Universal.  And some made sincere efforts to translate Gurbani to make it accessible to everyone, and even narrated the history etc like Max Arthur Macaullif.  I thought Sikhi was inviting and welcomed anyone. Now not so sure.  

Apparently you can only understand Gurbani concepts if you not only speak fluent Punjabi, but also have Indic background and practice Punjabi culture. It seems that after seemingly spreading outward, some are now trying to pull Sikhism back to only Punjabis, and inextricably mashing it with Punjabi culture so that anyone outside that little box is definitely made to be unwelcome. 

 

 

[Ragmaala]

 

First of all in order to understand gurbani you dont need punjabi, what you do need is submission to Guru wholeheartedly, and no one is pulling Sikhi to Punjabi culture.You should not have any doubt for the Guru or his writings. You need to be humble and flexible , and need to accept that you can be wrong sometimes, need to show openness to other interpretations.

That means you cannot do slander of Dasam Bani & Chaupai Sahib.

Thats the first step to learn Sikhi.

 

Edited October 21, 2015 by Ragmaala

[jaikaara]

 

First of all in order to understand gurbani you dont need punjabi, what you do need is submission to Guru wholeheartedly, and no one is pulling Sikhi to Punjabi culture.You should not have any doubt for the Guru or his writings. You need to be humble and flexible , and need to accept that you can be wrong sometimes, need to show openness to other interpretations.

That means you cannot do slander of Dasam Bani & Chaupai Sahib.

Thats the first step to learn Sikhi.

 

The irony is she hasnt realized the way she puts things is slander , a gora with akj influence is altogether a worst combination. They barely connect to the language and are heaped upon concepts which are close minded by the types of akj and people who are pyscho don quixotes ..thinking of themselves are knights in shining armour to avenge 84.

 

[CdnSikhGirl]

The irony is she hasn't realized the way she puts things is slander , a gora with akj influence is altogether a worst combination. They barely connect to the language and are heaped upon concepts which are close minded by the types of akj and people who are pyscho don quixotes ..thinking of themselves are knights in shining armour to avenge 84.

 

Do you know even what slander means Jaikara?  Slander per dictionary definition is a false SPOKEN statement designed to publicly degrade. 

First of all... everything here is typed not spoken, so if it was written and still designed to degrade, it would be libel.  However nothing I brought up has been a false statement designed to degrade.  The concerns I brought up about the Damdami Taksal Rehet Maryada, I directly quote them, and then point out the concerns using Gurbani to back it up.  So that means 2) It was not a false statement (I provide screenshots) and 3) It was not by design made to degrade anything.... being concerned about inconsistencies in something is not the same as degrading something.

Second, taking one Gurbani tuk out of context and using it to make the statement that women must bow down to men as Gods over them, very much IS by design constructing a statement designed to degrade. 1) It is a false statement because the tuk actually refers to something completely different which has nothing at all to do with human female wives and seeing human male husbands as God  2) By design it very much IS intended to degrade... women and it also is degrading to Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji to make the false statement that it looks down upon females when in reality it does not. 

Therefore, several of you are FAR more guilty of LIBEL not slander than am I.  And finally, in a court of law, libel / slander must be proven that it actually DID cause defamation of character to the recipient.  If it did not, then there was no slander / libel.  

If nobody is allowed to point out any inconsistencies in any Jathas even using Gurbani to back it up, then Sikhism has a serious problem.   Also, any rules of the above should also (if not more) be applicable to Akal Takht's Rehet Maryada printed by SGPC since it's the recognized Rehet Maryada... not any Jathas ones.  However you seem to be ok with slaner / libel of SRM?? Since you have not spoken against it at all on here.

[paapiman]

That means you cannot do slander of Dasam Bani & Chaupai Sahib.

Thats the first step to learn Sikhi.

 

Excellent point brother. Any person, who slanders any part of Gurbani (SSGGSJ, SDGSJ and SSGSJ), cannot be classified as a Sikh. People have the right to question and discuss, but people should not insult Gurbani. One can always say that they disagree with it, or they are not at a level to understand it. No one should rebuke them for that.

Correct me if I am wrong - Most of the white converts in Sikhism are from 3HO and they believe in all Gurbani. Therefore, majority of the heretics in our Panth are of Punjabi Indian origin.

Bhul chuk maaf

[Guest]

You yourself have done this to Gurbani by twisting meanings And taking it out of context Paapiman. That means by your own admission you are not a Sikh! 

SK At work 

[paapiman]

You yourself have done this to Gurbani by twisting meanings And taking it out of context Paapiman. That means by your own admission you are not a Sikh! 

SK At work 

Daas does not even deserve to be dog of Satguru jee. Becoming a Sikh is a monumental task.

Dhan Guru Nanak.........toon hee Nirankaar

Bhul chuk maaf

[amardeep]

Interesting questions.

I think it depends on local contexts. I think converts are doing better in the UK now since Basics of Sikhi has emerged. They are doing a fantastic job in making Sikhi accessable to non-Indians and providing the tools that are needed to study Sikhi in the English language.

What is needed in the future are proper tools in examining the depths of Sikhi - the study of braj basha poetics (about 50 percent of the Guru Granth Sahib is written in Braj) as well as Sikh philosophy. Baba Tirath Singh Nirmala from the UK thought of starting some Sikhi Sidanth classes but im not sure what happened to those plans.

Im not sure how easy it is in US and Canada. I think converts in US mainly stick with the 3HO lot and in Canada I think the number of converts is so low that they end up being drowned in Punjabism which scares them away. Im not sure though.

[dalsingh101]

I got to say:

 

Seeing those white,  gay turban wearing Sikhs and their weddings freak me the hell out. And I'm not homophobic before anyone plays that. 

[Singh123456777]

I got to say:

 

Seeing those white,  gay turban wearing Sikhs and their weddings freak me the hell out. And I'm not homophobic before anyone plays that. 

haha same 

[CdnSikhGirl]

I got to say:

 

Seeing those white,  gay turban wearing Sikhs and their weddings freak me the hell out. And I'm not homophobic before anyone plays that. 

Do u mean 3HO??

[dalsingh101]

Do u mean 3HO??

Whoever they are.

 

I have no idea?

 

But the important point is how nonPanjabi cultural baggage will interact with Sikhi and how the majority (let's be frank Panjabis) deal with it. 

 

It's not only that, it's stuff like western feminism too. Or outright western atheist secularism masquerading as Sikhi.

 

We are going through a learning phase of how to accommodate things we never even imagined or had to deal with before. Growing pains. 

 

I notice Islam tolerates certain cultural practices but has NONE OF IT with other stuff, like homosexuality. Actually, given how so many Arabs are undercover poofs, I guess it isn't as simple as that? But that being said, they have made certain things explicitly clear - we are probably going to have to do that - I expect a lot of friction in this respect. 

 

That ain't to say Panjabis don't bring in their own barrel of shite into the mix either.

 

We are sorting a  lot of things out right now including things like caste and inter-cousin marriage in certain places. 

 

I think we are like the starship Enterprise now, boldly going where we've never been before. Let's see where the cards fall. 

 

But I am a VERY wary of outsiders (nonSikhs) using converts to try and leverage and mould the Sikh community  politically and socially through clever manipulation.  

Edited October 21, 2015 by dalsingh101

[chatanga1]

Apparently you can only understand Gurbani concepts if you not only speak fluent Punjabi, but also have Indic background and practice Punjabi culture.

Stop behaving like a sulking spoiled child. For someone who is 40 you really act so childish sometimes.

 

You could have been strengthening your Panjabi understanding in order to understand Gurbani context better, rather than spoiling another topic.

[chatanga1]

I think it depends on local contexts. I think converts are doing better in the UK now since Basics of Sikhi has emerged. They are doing a fantastic job in making Sikhi accessable to non-Indians and providing the tools that are needed to study Sikhi in the English language.

Basics of Sikhi preachers have good understanding of English and Gurbani so it's makes it easier to convey the message of Gurmat. Whereas before I have felt there has been an imbalance, Panjabi Sikhs not knowing enough English to explain and expand in katha, and people from the western world who's lack of understanding of Panjabi has always left them with access to only a fraction of the knowledge available.

 

 

[CdnSikhGirl]

 

Stop behaving like a sulking spoiled child. For someone who is 40 you really act so childish sometimes.

 

You could have been strengthening your Panjabi understanding in order to understand Gurbani context better, rather than spoiling another topic.

See Sikhi according to Chatanga1 you definitely need to be Punjabi.  He said so, so it must be true!

by the way I learned a new Punjabi word which seems to describe you well... Sapa its under the Sasa letter in the learn Punjabi all I have. See the problem trying to learn Punjabi I can actually read Gurmukhi and pronounce it but all the apps only have one word for each letter and no sentence structure.  They are basically all just the alphabet with one word as an example for each letter.  How on earth can anyone lead a language like that!??? It would be like trying to learn English and having A Apple  B banana and that's it... No vocabulary or sentence structure or anything. There are no good Punjabi apps or books to learn!!! 

Edited October 21, 2015 by Satkirin_Kaur

[amardeep]

Dalsingh:
I dont think it is unprecedented as such. If you look at some of the different "castes" (hate using those examples) within the panth, you'll see that many of them have their own traditions which set them apart from mainstream Sikhs. Ie worship of some demi gods on specific days a year and other stuff they do due to belonging to a specific caste. This is a cultural baggage they brought with them when their ancestors converted to Sikhi. I think Afghan Sikhs also have some local traditions while Kashmiri Sikhs have a tradition of cousin marriages. This is likewise cultural baggage.

I think it is refreshing to meet Sikh converts, especialy when they contribute to established sikh traditions with their own traditions ie guitars in kirtan...Some months ago I spend time at the Guru Das Ashram in Los Angeles which is run by 3HO Sikhs. They did all the sewa, - nitnem, banis, sukhasan, kirtan etc. It was a cultural encounter i'll never forget.

Edited October 21, 2015 by amardeep

[amardeep]

Satkirin: Sikhs have to learn Gurmukhi - its an established tradition both scripturally and orally.

A Sikh has to know the language of Gurbani, of which knowing either Punjabi or Hindi is a great asset and tool. Most of Gurbani is written in Braj, Western Hindi and Punjabi.

[CdnSikhGirl]

Also Chatanga1 if it bothers you so much that converts can't speak Punjabi instead of complaining and trying to degrade them (which will only drive them away) why not volunteer in your area to teach Punjabi classes for English speaking?? Wouldn't that be much more constructive than trying to degrade and insult people who can't speak it??? I challenge you to do this seva since you seem so passionate about it. There are not good resources available to learn it.  So be the change you want to see. Volunteer to teach Punjabi in the UK (I am assuming that's where u are based on your posts). 

[CdnSikhGirl]

Satkirin: Sikhs have to learn Gurmukhi - its an established tradition both scripturally and orally.

A Sikh has to know the language of Gurbani, of which knowing either Punjabi or Hindi is a great asset and tool. Most of Gurbani is written in Braj, Western Hindi and Punjabi.

I can read Gurmukhi. And I know about 8 words meaning just from looking them up on google. But the fact remains the actual language there are no good resources to learn it so you can understand what you are saying. I can however read and pronounce it. 

[amardeep]

Satkirin: Check out the Basics of Sikhi videos on learning Punjabi. They are quite good.
 

[CdnSikhGirl]

Satkirin: Check out the Basics of Sikhi videos on learning Punjabi. They are quite good.
 

they are still what I was saying... No matter how many times I say ura aira eerie etc won't help me UNDERStAND it.  I can already pronounce it.  I can recite the alphabet!  What I need is something beyond ura aira eerie Sasa haha etc.  But all of the apps or books etc concentrate on the alphabet with maybe one word to illustrate the pronunciation and that's it.  Learning how to pronounce Gurmukhi is not the issue... It's comprehension. 

Edited October 21, 2015 by Satkirin_Kaur

[chatanga1]

See Sikhi according to Chatanga1 you definitely need to be Punjabi.  He said so, so it must be true!

How long before the sulk-fest is over? Quite embarrassing to hear this from a 40 something year old.

 

by the way I learned a new Punjabi word which seems to describe you well... Sapa its under the Sasa letter in the learn Punjabi all I have.

Really? Considering your forked tongue I thought that would have been the first word you learnt.

 

Also Chatanga1 if it bothers you so much that converts can't speak Punjabi

Who said anything about speaking Panjabi? I was talking about understanding Panjabi. You started banging on about not being able to speak it. I said a person "needs to have a good understanding of Panjabi to understand katha tio increase their learning of Gurmat, as english will only give you limited info".

 

You started crying about how hard it is to learn Panjabi, so I put up some videos showing westerners speaking Panjabi quite well.

 

Rather than waste your time on this forum, why not spend a bit of time increasing your Panjabi language knowledge?

[chatanga1]

they are still what I was saying... No matter how many times I say ura aira eerie etc won't help me UNDERStAND it.  I can already pronounce it.  I can recite the alphabet!  What I need is something beyond ura aira eerie Sasa haha etc.  But all of the apps or books etc concentrate on the alphabet with maybe one word to illustrate the pronunciation and that's it.  Learning how to pronounce Gurmukhi is not the issue... It's comprehension. 

There are no Panjabi schools in your area?

[CdnSikhGirl]

So accept my challenge then... It's in seva section