Social media and anti-Dasam Granth movement.

[CdnSikhGirl]

Yes  did post lies on Facebook from this site... lies posted about various members of Maritime Sikh Society, posted by Chatanga1.  Those people had a right to know they were being subject to libel defamation of character... as was I.  To this day Chatanga1 has never apologized for sending me unsolicited and rude PMs trying to get me to leave the forum, and then got all hissy about it (calling me a liar to this day) because I posted those PMs publicly thereby exposing his antics. I still have them saved if anyone feels like reading them (and you can decide for yourself if he was trying to goad me into leaving or not). 

WJKK WJKF,

As for Dasam Granth. There are from what I can see about equal number on both sides of the argument and also some in bewteen... those that blindly believe because that's what they were told and that's good enough to be cannon and anything anyone says is considered blaspheme. The other half do not generally doubt that *some* of DG is authentically from Guru Gobind Singh Ji, but hold question marks over other parts. The granth as a fully compiled work was assembled after the death of Guru Gobind Singh Ji. So it *could* be that some was authentically works of Guru Gobind Sing Ji while some might have been works that were merely in his possession etc. The second group maintain a "reserve judgement" attitude on these parts while revering the works that are considered authentic. The other extreme are those who believe that DG was introduced by others as a means to distract or bring in Brahminical ideology into Sikhi and cause confusion and this group do not believe in any way shape or form that these works are from Guru Gobind Singh Ji. I believe Nirmalas were the ones implicated... 

I know many of you think I fall in that last group. I do not. I have always said I believe banis like jaap, savayie etc are authentic. The others, though I have tried to understand what the meaning might be in a positive light I can not find any positive (particularly about female gender). Because of that I have always said that though I can't say either way if it is or is not authentic (I do not have the history background to make the judgement either way) but what I have ALWAYS maintained is that I can not see Guru Gobind Singh Ji INTENTIONALLY writing something that could be so dangerous as to be used as justification for "Singhs" to subordinate, distrust, and treat women badly. Since I believe our Gurus were perfect beings, then it would be impossible for him to accidentally write something that could be so dangerous as to cause that damage - psychologically breeding contempt in the minds of men towards women. And the fact that it has been used as such, is not even up for debate because we all know it's true. There are many "Singhs" who quote stories from Charitropakhyan, as justification to show how women are beneath men morally, spiritually etc. This is why I am in the middle ground. It causes a paradox:  If he DID write it, he did so knowing that it could be so dangerous as to cause many male readers to harbour total contempt towards females. Even if that was not the intent of it, he had to have known it could cause that outcome.  So because I am in the middle ground, many of you have called me 'Nindak' etc.  I don't really care anymore. I believe that Waheguru Ji gave us brains to be discerning. And I believe that Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji encourages us to use them.

And that brings me to my last point. The fact that Guruship was passed to Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji alone... To suggest that Sikhs "require" another granth, is to make statement that Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is somehow incomplete.  If we were told by the tenth master himself, that SGGSJ is to be our ONLY Guru, and is complete and has everything a Sikh would require in the way of knowledge and wisdom, then how can we require also another granth along with it? Or two..?? Even if it is fully authentic works of Guru Gobind Singh Ji, we still shouldn't "require" any more than Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and all else should come secondary.  All the Rehet Maryadas are in concurrence on this. There is to be no other granth held on equal level to Guru Granth Sahib Ji, or bowed to as your Guru. Even Damdami Taksal's Rehet Maryada states this. So, for me, I will focus on Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. I don't want to fight with you guys anymore (unless its about subordinating women LOL) So if you find spiritual guidance in Dasam Granth then fine... please read it. As long as you find only GOOD from it. Please don't use it as means to treat women badly is all I ask.  Vast majority of us are NOTHING like what those stories say. 

For me though I will stick to Guru Granth Sahib Ji and I am fully confident that ALL the knowledge I will ever need in this life, is contained in our only living Guru.
So why can't we just "agree to disagree' so to speak? Is it really THAT big a deal? As long as we ALL follow SGGSJ it shouldn't be...

Peace 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[dalsingh101]

You two still going at each other!!

 

Give it a rest for Gawd's sake. 

[BhagatSingh]

7 hours ago, amardeep said:

Its not a question of faith, - its a question of history. Did the Guru write it or not. Its not about believing whether the Guru wrote it or not.

When there are bits of history we don't know, we draw out several threads that lead to different versions of that history.

For me, it's important to know what connection Guru Sahib had with Dasam Granth, whether he wrote it himself or simply gave his approval to it. Because that effects how we view Sikh history from that point onwards. It tells us about what the Guru believed, and that changes things. It tells us about why things happened later on the way they did.

E.g. Guru Sahib handed leadership to Banda Singh ji. Why? What motivation did he have to do this?
If Guru sahib wrote Dasam Granth himself, the reason for handing leadership to Banda Singh ji is different than if he didn't write Dasam Granth.

And of course, it can be used to verify plain and simply facts. E.g. Did Guru Sahib perform a yagya for Bhagawati at Naina Devi or not? The answer changes depending on whether Guru Sahib wrote the Dasam Granth or not.

[dalsingh101]

What about being aware of the repeated tendency of apnay to form two opposing groups just to exercise their obvious tribal instincts. I think that often plays a major part in these 'controversies', more than the issue itself.

Should we not stay aloof from this? 

 

Many apany (especially pendu ones), seem to have a predilection for rowdiness, which they can't wait to exercise - whatever the cause. 

 

[chatanga1]

2 hours ago, Satkirin_Kaur said:

So why can't we just "agree to disagree' so to speak? Is it really THAT big a deal? As long as we ALL follow SGGSJ it shouldn't be...

Peace 

Peace to you as well. Like I said, I don't want this topic to degenerate.

I would like to ask you though, why you re-posted the message by sikhkhoj misrepresenting the "role of the poets" in writing Sri CharitroPakhyan, when a more accurate and complete translation was made and posted here.

You don't have to answer if you don't want to, but if you choose to respond keep the post in relation to the question.

 

32 minutes ago, BhagatSingh said:

When there are bits of history we don't know, we draw out several threads that lead to different versions of that history.

 

Ok that's fair enough, but there is enough evidence and history concerning Sri Dasme Patshah's Granth to make a SOUND judgement. Anyone who flies in the face of that can never be accepted.

 

[Ragmaala]

2 hours ago, Satkirin_Kaur said:

... those that blindly believe because that's what they were told and that's good enough to be cannon and anything anyone says is considered blaspheme

You have to look at character of people who told to believe in Dasam Granth. These were all highly spiritual masters & martyrs.

• Baba Deep Singh Ji
• Bhai Mani Singh Ji
• The Singhs who cut off the head of Massa Rangarh
• 21st century Great Sant Jarnail Singh
• The puratan Hazoor Sahib Maryada
• The great Brahmgyani Baba Nand Singh Ji who installed Maryada from Hazur Sahib at Nanaksar
• And many other countess great saints
• The great Scholars like Sant Singh Maskeen Ji

Satkirin, are you telling me to not believe the above ? what a joke. you dont have to answer it. its an oxymoron.

I would not listen to people who drink alcohol, eat meat, do kanjarkhana, have loose kacheras, cant control their dicks at the thought of women talking against Dasam Granth. You call me pendu, if anything says anything against  Dasam Granth I will slap them if they are in front of me.

My Guru Instructs me to  not tolerate Ninda of Guru.

Ninda of Dasam Bani is a ninda of Dasam Guru!!!

[Ragmaala]

I need to go drink some water, & calm myself done.

Why do I even bother posting...

[Ragmaala]

THE CHAUPAI SAHIB IS ESSENTIAL FOR AMRIT. CEREMONY ..ITS ESSENTIAL TO BE A SIKH

HOW CAN ONE SAY I DO NOT BELIEVE IN CERTAIN PARTS OF DASAM GRANTH???

THAT MEANS YOU ARE NOT A SIKH!

EITHER  THESE PEOPLE NEED TO BE TAUGHT VIA PROPER DISCUSSION WITH THEM

OR LAATON KE BHOOT BAATON SE NAHI MANTE....NEED  A SAINT WARRIOR LIKE SANT JARNAIL SINGH

[CdnSikhGirl]

Hmm my point wasn't to get u going but rather that people can have different views on things and still be friends... Sorry...

People getting so hung up on one side or the other and going to war with someone who doesn't believe the exact same things they do. This is not humanity. Remember we are all actually ONE. Nobody will have 100% same beliefs as you but is that reason to get your kachera in a bunch??

if we as humans were never meant to challenge anything or ask questions then a LOT of people in history could have pulled the wool over our eyes. Having doubts sometimes can be beneficial to finding truth. Problem is if someone has that trait... To challenge Things to want to know for sure... They can't just turn it off. It usually applies to everything. Why is the sky blue? Why exactly DO we wear a Kara? Why is red bad? Can we be 100% sure that he did author all of DG? I'm sorry questioning things is exactly how Waheguru Ji made me. I'm not wired to just follow the pack or believe something because someone else said so... No matter who they are. I'm sorry if u think that makes me a horrible person. 

I'm  still in the middle group...

whats funny is from point of view of Waheguru is only ONEness. All else is illusion. Here we are trapped in the illusion arguing over which bits of it are real or not. The only things which are real are truth... Truth contained in Gurbani. We are told our Guru is SGGSJ not because of its pages or even its authorship but because of the truth it contains. Similarly the human Gurus were not Guru because of their physical bodies. It was the truth they contained. (Much to dismay of some who like pointing out their maleness as a reason to put women down). 

That same truth can be found by others, even written in books from other religions. If you can find that same truth in DG then all the power to you. ...if I find it contained within SGGSJ only please let me be. I don't need another Guru. 

[GurpreetKaur]

1 hour ago, Ragmaala said:

  You call me pendu, if anything says anything against  Dasam Granth I will slap them if they are in front of me.

 

1:07. Slap ain't always bad lol

[SAadmin]

37 minutes ago, Satkirin_Kaur said:

whats funny is from point of view of Waheguru is only ONEness. All else is illusion

Exactly but hopefully all of us remember this when all old conditioned inclination of feminism, patriarchy and other conditioned illusory concepts rises in the consciousness and causes all kind of emotional charged responses, infighting right, left and center.

[CdnSikhGirl]

7 minutes ago, N30 S!NGH said:

Exactly but hopefully all of us remember this when all old conditioned inclination of feminism, patriarchy and other conditioned illusory concepts rises in the consciousness and causes all kind of emotional charged responses, infighting right, left and center.

Exactly we should just allow all humans to have all opportunity without discrimination at all... Since we are all ONE. If everyone recognized it there would be no problems. We'd all work together and nobody would be trying to limit others.

[Ragmaala]

Well there are certain things I feel obliged to write about especially when it comes to SGGS Bani or Dasam Bani. That is a trigger point for my conditioned illusion mind which generates emotional posts.

I don't have any personal animosity towards anyone.:) 

I pray that Guru gives everyone the wisdom to know truth.

@GurpreetKaur  thanks for the lol

@Satkirin_Kaur  I dont think you are a horrible person, you are just lost for now. You will learn in due time, no worries.

The alaph bey of Sikhi start with Adab. The doubts will pollute the mind, so better be careful. If we don't know something, just say I am not competent enough to know yet...don't generate a conclusion.  Surrender is very very important in Sikhi even when you are not sure about certain aspects. That is the way of Gurumukhs. 

 

[CdnSikhGirl]

26 minutes ago, Ragmaala said:

 

@Satkirin_Kaur  I dont think you are a horrible person, you are just lost for now. You will learn in due time, no worries.

The alaph bey of Sikhi start with Adab. The doubts will pollute the mind, so better be careful. If we don't know something, just say I am not competent enough to know yet...don't generate a conclusion.  Surrender is very very important in Sikhi even when you are not sure about certain aspects. That is the way of Gurumukhs. 

 

LOL
Are you saying that its not possible to find all the truth I require in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji?? 

IN fact that's what I am saying... I don't know enough about the history etc to make a decision one way or the other.  My only doubt is in whether Guru Ji would intentionally write something with the intent of it being used to cause degradation of women by men. So if he did write it, then that could not have been the intent. But then, surely a being as perfect as our Guru, would know that even if that was not the intent, it could be used as such, which would undermine much of what all of the previous Gurus taught about women hence its danger. The fact that it IS used by many "singhs" to justify bad treatment of women, is not in debate. We all know it's true. I've experienced it first hand when a "singh" told me that everything in DG was coming true and that women are not to be trusted and are immoral (and that I should marry him lest my soul be dammed).

So my doubt is centred on the intent of the writing. And if the intent was to cause men to have contempt towards women, then I can not believe our Guru Ji would write it.  If that was NOT the intent, then I still have a hard time believing he would write something dangerous which he KNEW would cause males to hold females in contempt and with distrust. (Why write something knowing that it had potential to cause more harm than good?) Unless this is really how he thought about us... which I flat out refuse to believe.  

So even if I surrender as you say, and say to myself ok believe these people who say he wrote it then I am left with what was the INTENT, and did he intend for women to be distrusted and held in contempt by men, or did he just not care about women enough that it would matter to him if it would be used as such? So the question really in my mind comes down to: Did Guru Gobind Singh Ji look down on the female gender?  Certainly a Guru, who is fully ONE with Creator, would not hold one human soul above another?? But, it really matters to me as a soul. Do I matter? Or because I am female do I not matter to our Gurus? 

So it's a very complicated reason why I have doubts. 

Trust me though, I make a good chess player! Maybe we can somehow play sometime ;)

[Ragmaala]

I refuse to further engage you on this topic. Sorry, I don't play chess lol.  @Satkirin_Kaur

Guru is never wrong, its the Sikhs who have wrong understanding.

Contemplate on following :

 

ਕਬੀਰ ਸਾਚਾ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਕਿਆ ਕਰੈ ਜਉ ਸਿਖਾ ਮਹਿ ਚੂਕ ॥

Kabeer Saachaa Sathigur Kiaa Karai Jo Sikhaa Mehi Chook ||

कबीर साचा सतिगुरु किआ करै जउ सिखा महि चूक ॥

Kabeer, what can the True Guru do, when His Sikhs are at fault?

58584 ਸਲੋਕ (ਭ. ਕਬੀਰ) ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੧੩੭੨ ਪੰ. ੧੮
Salok Bhagat Kabir

Maybe @BhagatSingh     can explain you the meaning of above ;)   have fun veer ji,

 

Edited January 26, 2016 by Ragmaala
bolded

[JustAnotherSingh]

I agree with @dalsingh101 on this one. What is it about so many apne that makes them completely throw away their wits when it comes to religious discussions? 

 

One side thinks we are doing baisti of Guru Gobind Singh by not properly recognizing his bani...and the other thinks we are doing baisti by mislabeling stuff as his bani. Camp A wouldn't be able to stand the GGS being labeled as a ruse and fake, while camp B would get up in arms if a random dera baba named his Granth one of the Guru's canon. Both concerns are legitimate, which goes to show why the argument from blasphemy DOESN'T WORK. 

 

What we should be focused on doing instead is properly evaluating the history and facts of the text. Just cracking open any number of works written by Sikhs in the past would reveal the DG is in no way a plant by Brahmins/RSS (just as it would probably also shut up the Neo-Nihang posse that calls it "Dasam Guru Darbar" in addition to "Adi Guru Darbar"). As to which parts were written by the Guru himself, which parts by the poets, and what the purpose of the Granth is in Sikhi in general, there remains discussion and debate to be had--discussion that can easily be reasonable and intelligent, if people put enough effort into it as they did crafting creative ways to call the other side nindaks. 

 

Is it an ego thing? Look, if people are genuinely misinformed, you have to actually inform them of what they're doing wrong. Obviously there will always be people who are out to make mischief but I think at some base point you have to assume good intent...

 

Also, @N30 S!NGH, where can I read something comprehensive on the usage of Sargun in Sikhi? 

 

@chatanga1 what was the role of the poets in CharitroPakhyan? I didn't read the original exchange with Khoj, just interested as to your thoughts.  

[Ragmaala]

I apologize for my Krodh, I shouldn't have been affected by it, but will be careful in future.

 

[paapiman]

On 1/24/2016 at 10:24 AM, chatanga1 said:

Yet another deceitful person from this forum, even after reading the correct and full interpretation (as their knowledge of Panjabi was close to zero) still used this distorted version in order to prove themselves to be correct in a further facebook group post. Now because no-one has countered that, the rest of that group will think that this distorted version is the correct version, and the deceit that is before them will be unfathomed.

 

This person also refereed to Sri Charitropakhian Sahib jee as "wiles of women" on Facebook, even though there are Charitars which portray women in a positive light and some Charitars that expose men.

Insulting Gurbani publicly -- Shameful and disgusting behavior. These types of Nindaks will definitely pay for their insults.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

 

[paapiman]

On 1/15/2016 at 10:52 AM, chatanga1 said:

Every day, new material seems to be coming up and the number of people agreeing with the Singh Sabha Canada propaganda and "liking" it has grown to quite large numbers.

Bro, do you (or anyone else) have more details about this Singh Sabha Canada? Who are these people? What is their background? Who is supporting them? Any sell outs among them?

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[paapiman]

17 hours ago, Ragmaala said:

OR LAATON KE BHOOT BAATON SE NAHI MANTE....NEED  A SAINT WARRIOR LIKE SANT JARNAIL SINGH

We have to be careful brother that we do not advocate or support violence in anyway, as most likely, violence won't solve this matter. Yes, we need to fight back, but with Gyan Kharag.

After all, there is a possibility that some people do have genuine doubts on Sri Dasam Granth jee, especially Sri Chartiropakhian Sahib jee, which is understandable. One needs a certain spiritual level to understand its contents.

Sri Charitropakhian Sahib jee is towards the end of Sri Dasam Granth Sahib jee.

IMHO, one needs to have

• Heard the entire katha of SSGGSJ
• Read multiple Teekas/Steeks on SSGGSJ
• Sound understanding of Bhai Gurdas jee's Vaaran
• Read the history of all Masters and Khalsa (Sri Sooraj Prakash Granth, Sri Gur Panth Prakash, etc)
• Heard the Katha of preceding chapters of Sri Dasam Granth Sahib jee
• Scientific knowledge regarding sexuality

After all the above, a person would be in a good position to understand the Charitars well. The other option is to elevate oneself spiritually.

People should be encouraged to ask questions, but they should not insult Gurbani in anyway. If they are not scholars, they should try to maintain silence on sensitive issues. After all, Sri Dasam Granth Sahib jee is in Prakash, at two of our Takhts (Sri Hajoor Sahib and Sri Patna Sahib)

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[CdnSikhGirl]

16 hours ago, Satkirin_Kaur said:

Whats funny is from point of view of Waheguru is only ONEness. All else is illusion. Here we are trapped in the illusion arguing over which bits of it are real or not.

I thought about this again and this is the irony of it all: Ultimate reality is ONEness. All else is illusion, so essentially we are all arguning over which bits of the illusion are real when the turth is that NONE of it is LOL.

Also, we are creating our own reality. The 'rules' to life are not made by some separate being sitting on a cloud. The divine consciousness is within ALL OF US. Therefore, we are actually making the rules! So to say that things go this way or that way because of some divine law, I think is wrong. Waheguru is not some separate thing. The divine consciousness is here and now, and in ALL of us!!

Of course, we are still stuck in the illusion so we have to make of it what we can. What is the INTENT of Gurbani? Is it a rule book for the illusion? Do this don't do that... etc? I think it surpasses this. Gurbani exists as a beacon of truth to help us dissolve the illusion and realize that ONEness. And our Guru is not the physical pages, not the ink, not the fancy rumalas, we are not worshipping a 'book'. It's the knowledge contained within it, which can never be destroyed even if the physical book is (think of recent events in Punjab. They may have destroyed the physical pages, but they could never destroy that wisdom... truth can't be destroyed!). This is why SGGSJ is venerated. It surpasses the physical.  That's not to say that same truth can't be found in other granths, Sikh or otherwise. I am sure some of the same knowledge can be found in the Christian Bible, the Quran, the Talmud, etc. when one starts reading. But for me, the epicentre of that knowledge... the culmination of it, is contained fully within the one granth, Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji... if it were not, it wouldn't be deserving of the title 'Guru' would it?

So I guess if Dasam Granth also contains that same knowledge then it deserves respect as well. It doesn't even matter who authored it. But this is where I find contradiction because of some of the content. And you know which parts. I don't see how what is written in that part, applies to dissolving the illusion and merging back with Creator, self realization to the divine within... And as I said, anything considered Gurbani should ultimately have intent which is positive, not negative. And even if the intent were positive somehow, but it is written as such that it's so dangerous as to be abused by MANY and for bad means (to justify mistreatment, distrust of, and contempt towards women by men) then why would it be presented in a granth that is seen by many as holding just as much importance as that which we actually venerate as 'Guru'? As Ragmaala quoted What can Guru Ji do, when his Sikhs are at fault? My answer to that is: Would you give guns to a room full of known murderers? Why not? The guns are only for protection right? What can you do if the murderers are at fault? But you basically handed them the means to carry out their carnage! Our perfect Guru, Guru Gobind Singh Ji, knowing human nature and knowing society at the time (where women were already very marganilized) would certainly have known that writing depicting women in such low and immoral light would be used to justify mistreatment, distrust of, and contempt toward them by men, even if the intent of the writing wasn't meant to. Does it mean he knowingly handed over a weapon for men to use against women? I don't think he would, as it would have undermined what all the previous Gurus taught about male / female and equality and I don't think Guru Gobind Singh Ji thought of women as lowly (but admittedly that is my personal view - who knows, maybe I'm wrong and he did see us as generally bad?). All I know is the practical outcome of it... vast majority of women are not like those stories at all... yet many "Singhs" who have read DG now have opinion of women as generally being lower spiritually, morally etc than them because of it. Some to the point of calling us not even fully human and a 'downgrade to men' (I won't mention names here because I am trying to express this without causing any more kacheras to be in a bunch).

Chatanga1: I missed your post because honestly I have you blocked. I saw your post only now at work. To answer your question, Sikh Khoj's post was not the first time I saw mention about the names Ram and Shyam, and how they very coincidentally match names of court poets. I guess the question is (aside from the above reasons) if Guru Gobind Singh Ji did write Charitropakhyan, why use pen names (especially ones that were already associated with known court poets)? Why not sign his own name? He was the Guru after all! Why would he need to hide behind pen names? And I don't mean that in disrespect... but it's an honest question. Why wouldn't the Guru write something and use his actual identity? Wouldn't he have known that using aliases would create this very debate? Since I don't fall completely in Camp A OR B, I am trying to look with an open mind at ALL of the issues, did he or did he not write it, if he did what was the intended consequences of it? Are people just misinterpreting it to misuse it to cause harm to image of women and if so, did Guru Ji antitipate that would happen (I'm sure he would have) and if so, did he care about what would happen to women as a result? (like I said, putting the gun in the hands of murderers analogy).

I am sorry that Waheguru Ji made me to analyze things. Right from childhood I asked questions (to better understand the world around me). When I would ask "why is/does insert any question here", I was never satisfied with the answer being "....because it is/does". This drive led me to quantum physics... trying to understand reality, to fulfill this deep seated need to just KNOW the nature of existence. Why do things work they way they do? Why does society do this or that? Why do we as humans tend to want to place limits on others or control them? My questions led me to discovering that the divine light is in everyone and that WE create this existence. WE can effect change... it's not up to some sky daddy sitting on a cloud. God is HERE and NOW in ALL of us! Yes this includes, equality of caste, colour, GENDER, rich/poor, ethnicity, language, disability, and any other distinctions we think we must uphold. Its up to US as ONE race to change. To Love.  For this reason I can not argue anymore with you guys. If you find this same truth in Dasam Granth then that's good. But if you use it for evil like using it as justification to limit, to cause contempt etc (and in particular towards women), then I think you have missed the mark and I will pray for you. But I don't see why the actual authorship matters in the grand scheme of things... except as Bhagat Singh Ji said earlier, to know the reasons WHY things were written, what was the mindset of Guru Ji? etc. That's how it matters.  But as for totality... the FULL truth is already contained within Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, or else it would not be worthy to be our Guru if it were not 'Complete' knowledge.

 

Sorry for the long post.

 

 

[paapiman]

The below is another Youtube channel, where Nindaks are attacking Gurbani.

 

 

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[Ragmaala]

@Satkirin_Kaur

Its not the Guru's fault if Sikhs misuse anything ?

- what can the Guru do if people did not believe in Bhagat Bani, Ragmaala or were trying to change the structure of manglacharans

- what can the guru do if people start messing around with amrit ceremony, like cutting 2 banis

- what can the guru do if people start misusing Gurdwara funds for selfish reasons.

- what can the guru do if sikh stops believing in Naam Simran

The potential of something being abused in a wrong way does not mean that knowledge should be held back from passing onwards. A Gurus purpose is to impart all kind of knowledge to Sikh. It is the Sikhs onus to understand that with patience, without any preformed illusions in conscious mind.

Gurbani speaks to all levels of students, from kindergarten to advanced level Phd & beyond. If a first grade student tried to pick up an advanced level subject & abuses it , its not the Gurus fault.

There are many subjects in Guru Granth Sahib that have the potential of being abused. Papiman  created a thread to include those Gurbani tuks.

So by your logic, Guru should not have talked about those subjects .

Hence, I find your argument flawed.

 

 

[Ragmaala]

2 hours ago, Satkirin_Kaur said:

Our perfect Guru, Guru Gobind Singh Ji, knowing human nature and knowing society at the time (where women were already very marganilized) would certainly have known that writing depicting women in such low and immoral light would be used to justify mistreatment, distrust of, and contempt toward them by men, even if the intent of the writing wasn't meant to.

By making this statement you are interpreting the work of Guru according to your own conditioned mind, whether you call it feminism, humanist or eglatarian.

I find your statement sexist.

You are saying all women are same as depicted in Charitropakhyan.  That is a very sexist statement.

Whereas I believe that Guru ji is talking about certain kind of women, he is not saying all women are same.

 

[Ragmaala]

2 hours ago, Satkirin_Kaur said:

And our Guru is not the physical pages, not the ink, not the fancy rumalas, we are not worshipping a 'book'. It's the knowledge contained within it,

Just wanted to point out that there are some schools of thought in Sikhism which practice Sargun Worship of Guru Granth Sahib,as Guru Gobind Singh Ji dictated pargat guran ki deh.  Treat the Guru Granth like a living physical body of Guru . Baba Nand Singh from Nanaksar emphasized this point.

Some aspects of Sargun Worship include beautiful rumalas, blankets, room climate control, perfumes, serving food 3 times a day, massaging the body of Guru Granth Sahib, treating the pages as real organs, making sure the palaks used to cover pages are smooth , not rough, having pillows on sides for comfort, having a large bed for Guru Granth Sahib.  This is Sargun worship.

Just wanted to broaden your horizon, that these schools of thought also exist.