Is the Budha Dal still an army?

[Guest inderjit]

Can the Budha Dal as it is in today's current form capable of calling itself an army?

Would somebody define what an army in the sense of the word "army" means and whether or not that applies to the akal purkh ki fauj?

For those people who have spent time with the nihangs at budha dal, please could you tell us;

What type of training and recruitment does the army employ?

What type of physical spiritual and mental tests are needed to join the army? i.e is there a minimum requirement for entry,eg strength, stamina, accuracy with firearms, knowledge of battle strategy etc

What is the current strength in terms of manpower in the army of akal purkh?

What type of weaponary does the army keep? Ie Types and numbers of different kinds of firearms, rifles, pistols, and larger pieces as needed to defend against armoured vehicles, tanks, helicopters etc.

What state is the army's equipment in? communication and surveilance equipment?

Does the army have a certain type of constitution or guidelines advising when the army can get involved in combat and where and when not?

These are serious questions, as we have all seen, in past decades we have been attacked from various fronts. It appeared that there was little in the form of organised defence of the sikh nation. Which led to villagers with little or no combat knowledge having to take up arms against well trained and equiped forces.

Can the sikhs depend on the budha dal under the command of santa singh to protect the sikhs, or should there be an attempt within the quam of creating a army of sikhs who are actually willing and able to protect the sikhs and their interests (and those of humanity)?

In the 80's and 90's the budha dal has been percieved to have been largely inactive in any form of combat.

IF the kharkoo militant sikhs were wrong for doing what they did.. (as people on this forum have tried to compare them with the taliban...i refer to the picture area and the picture of a singh holding an rpg launcher) then surely the budha dal should have stopped them from commiting these "outrages" and brought them to justice.

OR

IF the singhs were right in trying to defend sikhi from the attacks from the state, then surely the budha dal should have been at the forefront of this fight, they being the OFFICIAL defenders of sikhi.

(i hope we dont get our friend telling us to wait for the nest website, if you dont have anything to say other than that, then just do us all a favour and keep it shut, thanks)

So what do you guys think? Do we have a sikh army? Or just a bunch of men with ancient weapons and no hope of forming any type of defence against anybody?

[Narsingha]

Why not visit the Budha Dal yourself, and pose these questions to Akali Nihang Baba Santa Singh directly?

You may see the weaponery and its effectiveness first hand if you're lucky :wink:

[Guest inderjit]

yaaaawwwwwnnn

ok anybody got something decent worth saying, now that narsingha has as usual avoided the questions which hurt. so far, any question which he hasnt "enjoyed" hes told us to go and speak to the budha dal, despite representing the dal via his websites and having links with the uk jathedar, but no loss.

lol, what are they gonna beat me up?!?! whoooo

what a sad state of affairs that you have to resort to using them to threaten someone who has an honest question, but when it actually comes to fighting they sit around with churia on their arms!

Here's a request narsingha, please dont get involved with this topic, it would appear that you have nothing or worth to say and not willing to admit the truth, so do us all a favour and cough cough off! thanks!

[Sukdev Singh Jhamka]

vaheguru ji ka khalsa

vaheguru ji ki fateh

well inderjit what did u expect, santas weapons and army are the CRPF (central reserve police force) they are the new Guru ki fauj, they seem to follow him every where he goes, guess Guruji’s so-called Fauj needs the indian government to protect them. I dnt see Baba Nihal Singh ji protected by the CRPF. The only modern weapons they possess are the cross bows his little fan club from the uk sends him lol

The only operation manual they have is the hide and seek one, when u get attacked hide like 84, and when so-called peace returns hey presto come out in ur uniforms brandishing all those rusty weapons that make them a tin pot army (toy soldiers).

There military regime is wake up have sukha kill a goat or 2 even if u watch their video they miss at point blank range when trying to be soormay killing a poor defenceless goat.

I think enuf said on a sad fact that the Khalsa has lost it military wing, but Guru ji di kirpa nal Singhs and Singnia are waking up and learning to be Saint Soldiers in every form.

May Guru ji give us kirpa to have the most up to date weapons and be able to use them

AKAAALLLLLLLLLLL

[Guest BikramjitSingh]

The Budha Dal is supposed to be the 'army of the Panth', Narsingha goes on endlessly about 'indian warrior tradition' and 'kshastriyas' etc etc. Well like any army it's chief role is to defend the people, in this case the Panth. When the army which claims to 'defend the Panth' makes common cause with people like Indira Gandhi, can that army still claim to be be the defenders of the Panth ?.

Oh I forgot got to wait for the website if I want any Nihang views on 1984.

As I posted before, Santa Singh and his Nihangs are more of a liability than an asset to the Panth. In any confrantation between the Sikhs and Indian government, Santa Singh and his Dal will always side with the government.

I now wait with bated breath for Narsingha's well thought out and constructive response

[Mugermach Singh]

Fateh y'all. Usually, i wounldn't reply, i would usually leave it and carry on with what needs to be done, but i feel like replying this time. :?

An army is supposed to have Tanks, Guns, Rockets all this!!!! But seeing that there are so many restriction on the type of machinery that you can make in india there is a problem.

Also, its not too difficult to convert a Tractor to a Tank, but im sure every1 knows that. :roll: :roll:

In 1984 all shit broke loose. I was too young at that age, and from experience with panjabis/indian and seeing their reactions to helping one another i would not be Surprised if it was EveryMan for themself (not every1 is like this, i know many people that will not run when the shit hits the fan). I have not read all the accounts, or anything like that, but have seen many pictures and they have stuck in my head, what they did to the Innocent Singhs and Singhnee was wrong. The killed and torured innocent people. And still little to no justice has been given.

I dont know what weapons the Buddha Dal Carries, but as any army, im sure they are not going to show them openly to every1. We dont see the British Army showing off all their weaopns.

Some1 mentioned the Hide and Seek thing.........

There is no shame in hiding, a dead warrior is a useless warroir, it would have made sense for the singhs to hide, if they couldnt find you, they cant kill you. You could always come back for them.

Realistically, One person can do more damage then an entire army.

[Guest inderjit]

Actually we do see what weapons the british army keeps, to an extent anyway. if the common belief was that britain did not have the arms to protect itself then there would be some serious discussions and rapid investment taking place to ensure that we did! parades and regular events show how the punch that britain can pack. also the fact that (rightly or wrongly) britain and america have used their weapons at times of conflict have shown us that they are prepared and willing to use force.

this is more than one can say of the budha dal. look at any photo of the dal walking and you will see that a minority, a very small number of the singhs are carrying any type of firearms. the fact is that they represent themseleves as the 'wandering army' thus implying that they are ready at all times to do battle (tiar patiar - ready and prepared)... but are they? simple observasion will shown that they are not!

as for restrictions.... restrictions placed by whom? the rulers of india? are they also the rulers of the guru's army? it was and is my belief that the only one who can dictate and govern the fauj was the guru himself. the jathedar is given the seva to look after the fauj for the guru.

so it would now appear that the fauj is no longer the guru's but now belongs to mr vajapaie the prime minister of india and leader of the BJP which is essentially a hindu party.... so the akal purkh ki fauj and the defenders of sikhi now work for a hindu political party!!

isnt that fantastic!!!

correct me if im wrong, but didnt the mughals put restrictioons on guru ji as well?! as in banning private armies and carrying of weapons to keeping beards for non muslims etc... but guru ji ignored all of these laws and stayed unqiue and did his own thing...

would he be proud of us now to see HIS specially created army too afraid to stand up to their god given right to bear arms????

the budha dal has to apply for licenses to carry certain types of weapons in india.. eg spears.. never mind modern weapons the budha dal cant even carry puratan shastar without having the stamp of the govt on a licence!! its disgusting that the fauj has become so weak.

as a british brainwashed sikh, who has awoken up having understood the knowledge of narsingha i hope that the warriors ie nihangs manage to regain thier position as warriors of the guru and not just a show piece or olden relics!

as for hiding and seeking.... for how long should one hide? if the SIKH ARMY hides then who will stand to protect us? the common sikhs in punjab cannot hide? where would they go? they had to stay where they were and be persecuted. the few that did take up the challenge and try to fight back were blessed with death. but are you telling me that the WHOLE budha dal had to go into hiding? baba nihal singh and his nihangs, sant jarnail singh and the singhs from taksal, teh babbars and many others didnt hide! even sant baba harnam singh ji was involved in the protests before the violene started! so what about the dal? its been 20 years.. are they still hiding?

people like sukha and jinda did make a difference.. but i wonder what the budha dal would say about the people who assasinated one of the generals in charge of the attack on darbar sahib? one wonders if they would call them murderers and terrorists?

as paji said earlier the real fauj it would appear is the crpf who protects the sikh fauj....

how chardi kala! :?

[Gupt Singh]

the read budha dal is the shaheeds who fought in 78, 84-present day

the so called nihung budha dal is non existent really. and the real soldiers weve got left are scattered either in pakistan or abroad

[Shasterkovich]

On the subject of whether the Budha Dal can still be considered an army, I think it's worth mentioning that in many very recent conflicts, primitive weapons have played an important role. The genocide in Rwanda, where Tutsis and Hutus set upon each other with traditional machetes (very large numbers of killings resulted), is an example. Plus the conflict between Israel and Palestine: Palestinians have used sticks and stones to wage a sort of guerrilla campaign ever since the inception of Israel.

Also, to ths day most households in northern India and Pakistan have at least a sword or homemade pistol stashed away somewhere. It's a legacy of Partition in 1947, when millions were killed using axes, knives, swords, etc. Also, in modern riots in India and Pakistan, the swords, sticks, knives will come out as they always did (example: the Babri masjid/Ayodhya temple dispute).

Sure, there are guns and bombs.

But the swords still cut and the arrows still fly. Nothing's changed in that regard. Therefore, if it's organised in a hierarchical way (i.e. not operating from guerrilla or insurgent-type cells), the Budha Dal is still an army. This view is compounded by the fact that they are readily identifiable and visible (with discipline and a uniform).

[Baba Manochal]

Int it shameful that we have to compare our army with rioters and genocidal maniacs?

Surely the khalsa should be above that!

Is there any other respectable armed force who uses the example of 11 yr old boys throwing rocks as justification for being militarily underarmed?

it would seem that as long as we could riot then we are safe...?

Didnt Guru Gobind Singh give his singhs the best weapons possible and talk about the best weapons available at the time in his gurbani?

Im sure the singh's there didnt use sticks and stones, they would have have the best available. So why have we still only got weapons that were last used as the primary weapon in a REAL WAR over a hundred years ago?

Dont you need more than a uniform to be an army?

Also what discipline? Are you talking about being able to take orders and follow them in the thick of battle, i.e. battle formations, attack formations, holding under heavy fire, etc etc? Or discipline like early morning training, making sure equipment and self is in perfect condition?

And what hierarchy exists? I think the question spoke about promotions within ranks... does this exist? As in are there generals, regimental officers etc?

Maybe a real and effective sikh armed force should be trained to protect the gurdwara's, particularly harimandir sahib. Would anybody from here go to punjab to train and join a force like this if it was created?

[princess_sonia]

I would go. ANd i think there should be KHALSA military schools that will train QUALIFIED (sikhi-wise and insaniat-wise) people, including singhs and kaurs, who will be there to protect the Gurdwaras from those pakhandee babays and...

i think there should be a petition to get permission for this kind of study...

Not only study, practice also.

ALL amritdharee gursikh should have to do SEVA of this kind at least for ONE year. as in some country you have to do military service after you completed the studies in order to receive the diploma.

anyways, i think that something should be done.. but these people-sevak has to be thoroughly selected.

something has to be done.... any suggestion on this??? someone?

[Guest]

ANd i think there should be KHALSA military schools that will train QUALIFIED

How can you assure us that these so-called schools will not have corruption in ling term or lets just say follow the same path as " Pakhandi babeys" the way you call it.

[princess_sonia]

well thats where is all get stuck.. there is no way... (well i can see of any effective one) to filter out the pakhandees... kee khial? and i think that is why nothing has been done yet... and for sure nobody is willing to take such a huge seva... well thats acoording to me, dear.

[Baba Manochal]

bhenji, i love the sound of that idea! Upon taking amrit if each of us could like you said spend a year doing seva and learing out gurbani etc and defending the panth, that would be an experience beyond words!

it would also create such strong bonds within the community as all of us would be taking part in the same seva together, and in the future in a war/battle did occur thn we would be ready and not have to rely on old men with porr weaponary.

Perhaps it is just a dream, but a nice dream!

Im suprised that the people supporting the nihang's in india, havent given any evidence to counter the views or ideas here.

There does seem to be a number of intelligent (much more intelligent than myself) people on this forum, and as we are meant to be a nation of saint soldiers, im shocked that we cant discuss such an important topic in any detail! surely this problem needs addressing!

(ps how long penji do you think before somebody tries to compare this with the islamic schools run in pakistan and prev in afghanistan etc lol but truth is we DO need people who are able and willing to fight and die for sikhi!!)

[princess_sonia]

Manochal veer ji, dear i give around 24hours.. hehehe... unless now that it has been said someoone tried to post exactly 24hours, 01minute after.. hehe.

well i think it a good start to do some cleaning up fake sikhs here and there... hehehhe. ;-)

well yeah thats my dream, that one day we will have our own army let alone other stuff, just an army to defend us in crisis. and i think some sikhs should get together to start this kind of seva...

No, sikhs dont need weaponary in large amount to learn the art of khalsa armed force... well i hope.. ;-)

anything i think there are sooo many things that can be done... and i know some people who do TRY to do it.. and general population don let them and put stick in their legs and try to ruin their life i any way can...

sometimes i hink about it... i am indian also, im a sikh also (i cant call my self a gursikh yet), but i dont understand the behavior of some when they see another standing so strong and still on TRUTH and KHALSA, and GURSIKHI... it rediculous how sikhs are out to ruin each other.... i dont understand...

what can we do?

what should be done?

[princess_sonia]

Ajkal dee SIKHI pata kee hai?

Big dastar, beautifull dumala, popularity among youth and aged, and a big jubaan, and of course the hankaar that i had darshan of this or that sant, and i am a better sikh then the person sitting next. Thats the problem. no one really is willing to sacrifice their life (which is more materialistic then anything else) for TRUE SIKHI.

my grand father once wrote in a poem:

"Mai han vada pardhan,

mera secretary anjaan

Eh gallan ni changeea,

SODO OUS DUSHAT NO JO KARAY MANDEEAN."

jay sudhaee dee jaroorat hee na pavay tan kee marrha??? We, YOUTH have to take rassean in hand cause it is OUR future that is being laid out in the most pittyfull way. Somehting has to be done...

any other suggestion?

;-)

*Manochal veer jio let see if nihangs react to this* hehehe (they probably gonna ask eme what m i doing for khalsa panth.. hehhehe) we will see.

;-)

[Baba Manochal]

yeh bring out the Mr Muscle Dusht Pappi Cleaner!

Look at the rise of hindu nationalism with the rss and vhp and other groups, muslims are always getting killed in india by so called 'religious riots', i think one of my lecturer's said once that there were studies which showed that riots are rarely if ever spontaneous, and that in fact they are often planned and people come prepared to cause the violence.

if this happens to the sikhs again, there is no guarantee tht it wont, after all those responsible for the previous outrages against the sikhs are still walking free (or dead after some kharkoo singh put a bulet in their heads!!). therefore we need to prepare for this possibility otherwise we will suffer massive numbers of sikhs being killed again and nobody but villagers whose only training consists of love for guru and sikhi will be there to defend us and then later be called extremists by their own people.

Nobody can deny that the budha dal and the tarna dal are now ineffective as an armed force, so much so that it embarassing trying to compare them with other armies around the world.

was looking through a book called something like 'the world greatest armed forces' or similar to that .. and one would hope (dream more like) that the khalsa fauj of Guru Gobind Singh which had done so much in the past would also be mentioned... but not a whisper! But it did mention the kharkoo singhs in another book! lol that the indian army (one of the largest in the world) had to often deal with seperatists(their words) in punjab! lol so at least they got a mention!

[princess_sonia]

lol... true

agreed.

[princess_sonia]

Mod note :

This site is for youth but it doesn't give you right to throw your childish poems. Be serious next time and you are getting your first warning.

[Baba Manochal]

helloooo people?!?

Any replies?? It sees that the BJP is makin great strides in india and may well win the election, which may in turn no sorry, which WILL in turn give rise to further hindu nationailsm feelings with the result in more intercommunal violence, against both muslims and sikhs.

Im quite shocked that nobody is prepared to suggest reform for our outdated armies!

People seem happy to harp on about things, but seriously;

WHERE IS THE SIKH MILITARY?!?!?!

I saw some pics on some thread recently, and most of the nihang singhs looked either a little old to fight or incredibly out of shape. Im sure there are some singhs that can march and run etc but an armies worth??

Are we really to believe that THIS is the army that Guru Gobind Singh Ji created??? Surely the greatest general needs warriors who could follow his commands. this includes knowing tactics, being able to move (stamina) from place to place, understanding commands, and being able to use any weaponary available!

Tut tut tut

Also i read an intresting thread/post somewhere that hari singh nalwa (so i believe) was said to have been abel to converse in english and french as well as his native language. Is this also true of the generals today?

Any comments would be nice!

[The truth]

i was reading another website today and the following idea came up

"Why harp on practices of the 16th century to diffrentiate the religion? What about telling us what the religion is doing in the 21st century? Its funny we are so caught up in the past, but I don't see people getting really fired up to stop female infantacide or female malnutrition, or castism, or the economic exploitation of poor folk in Punjab. Who is talking about Punjabis attitudes to migrant labor from Bihar? In fact, who is talking about anything with relevence to human rights or economic rights in Sikh institutions? Its very sad,"

and it got me thinking - how today the nihangs

are talking so much about history and the 'glorious past' but wut in reality are they doing in the modern world

all i can see them doing is bigging their own egos up, talking loads, spreading hate and disunity but no action

if this is the true army of the sikhs - then man we are in trouble

to all the nihangs, don't live on past reputations, do something postive if you can-

[Beast]

lead the way Singh!!!

I'm behind u all the way

[Jungee]

I would just like to say...

instead of insulting people and certain groups. why dont you be postively constructive yourself. ( this is refering to the reader, not anyone in particular)

if you think nobody is doing anything to help create a sikh armed forces...

WHY DONT YOU DO SOME THING YOUR SELF, WHY DONT YOU JOIN YOUR NATIONS ARMED FORCES!!!!

as other sikhs have doen in india, England, Malaysia, Canada, and even America. et al

anybody can do lip service.... but when it comes to actually doing something... hardly anyone comes forward either they make excuses or they just outta shape... physically and mentally..

the ones who are doing something... i doubt they are gonna come on a forum only read by a few hundred and bragg about being in the services.

creating the armed forces isn't the problem, it's the long term and progressive commitment required by people.

in my opinion..the Nihangs are keeping the Martial Military traditions alive. they have done good.

the same goes for them kharkoo fanatics..who to me act more like mindless terrorists hurting everybody around them. Trying to solve a problem through intimidation rather than conversation and negotiation.( they have no expertise in any thing martial or diplomacy, just in mob mentality. i doubt they could face a foe on their own )

they seem to be just confused misdirected people. lashing out angerly at any one different to them.

for a sikh armed forces to be created we need to build bridges with other organisations and countries. we need professional cool minded people. who know how to communicate and help people from all walks of life.

not silly fanatics who create barriers and differences between people.

anyway i dont want to sound negative.

a Sikh Armed forces will happen we just have to be patient.

have faith in VaheGuru and live the truth with no fear of any Gidrs

[Baba Manochal]

LOL!!!!

please stop, your hurting me!!

lol

Firstly this post isnt about the british armed forces or any other nations amred forces, its about the SIKH ARMED FORCES.

You miss the point, the sikh armed forces shouldnt need to be created!!! They were created by Guru Ji hundreds of years ago!!!

What the discussion here is, in case you missed it, is the reform that these forces need to make!!

Please tell me about the martial practices that the nihangs have kept alive in your opinion. And then tell me of their practicality in a modern conflict. Also then go back and answer the other points about the lack of structure, the lack of expertice, the lack of skill and knowledge, the lack of training, the lack of equipment etc etc etc etc etc etc

Please explain which terrorists/kharkoo/fanatics your talking about??

The only kharkoo singhs who you could possibly be referring to are the singhs who fought in Punjab during the 80's and 90's.

May i remind you that many of these fanatics had a lot of knowledge in martial aspects, a few names for you;

General Shubegh Singh Ji one of the most revered generals of his time

Baba Manochal quit the army

General Labh singh, was a distinguised member of the punjab police (and you know they have martial experience!!)

Maybe you should do some research on the Sikh movement since 1947 in particular and then talk about lack of diplomacy.

You talk of a single foe? They took on hundreds!

Unless your stupidly labelling people in this country? For some reason if somebody isnt seen as a 'nihang' or one of their friends in this country is automatically labelled a fanatic! If you refer to these people, then again i suggest you do some research on sikh politics in the uk, and speak to some of the 'foes' who have been spoken to individually.

anyway this discussion isnt about fanatics or whatever else you want to discuss, start a new topic about that if you wish.

This is a legitimate question.

The nihang dals claim to be an army, i am asking for that claim to be substantiated.

Why is that such an insult? You tell me, the next time somebody decides to kill thousands of people on the streets of delhi, rape our sisters and burn gurdwara down to the ground, who will take the responsibility to defend them or deliver justice?

Can you confidently say that the dals are capable or even willing to do so, given the responses of many of them in recent history??

At the moment they dont have the resources to even take care of a rebel nihang and his group!

What a shame it would be if it was people of the fanatical mindset that had to pick up WEAPONS AGAIN to defend sikhi.

Answer the question if you wish, dont divert the converstaion.

[Baba Manochal]

I pray vaheguru lets some of the nihangs join the indian army and learn some of the stuff that they were meant to know themselves, and pass the info on to the rest of them, and actually have a working disciplined army!VAHEGURU!!