Are AmritDhari Sikh more narrower than ancient India Brahmin

[newAgeSikh]

Guru Nank tried to prove to the world that don't be obssessed with rituals, tries to search for truth. He showed at many places bu the 'Haridvar Incident' or 'Macca Incident'.

SO by looking for truth is the work of a true Sikh. By just accepting what some AmritDhari Sikh says is not being a true Sikh.

I need to still find the truth behind why to wear turban or keep beard because as Guru Nanak showed us that blindly following ritual will make us no better than the Brahmins of ancient India.

The AmritDhari Sikhs are more narrower than Brahmins of ancient India.

[g_singh]

An Amritdhari Sikh is one who follows what was laid out by Guru Gobind Singh Ji in 1699 when they created the Panth Khalsa. Ancient Brahmins treated men and women unequally, different religions unequally, different castes unequally, different materials unequally, etc, etc. Guru JI told his Khalsa to be good, honest people and to treat everyone equally.

Wearing Kirpans and keeping beards is not an empty ritual, their significance can be readily found anywhere. Just because you dont understand them, doesnt mean a Sikh who has them is narrow minded. Guru Gobind Singh Ji created the Khalsa in his own form, and criticizing an Amritdhari Singh who genuinely follows what Guru Sahib Ji laid out is wrong. I humbly suggest that you read through Sikh History, Sikh Teachings, and then the Rehat Maryada before making a comment such as "The AmritDhari Sikhs are more narrower than Brahmins of ancient India."

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

[ThinkingOne]

The AmritDhari Sikhs are more narrower than Brahmins of ancient India.

Dear Veer ji,

This understanding seems to be coming out due to incomplete understanding of two concepts of Brahmin and Sikh, alongwith following reasons:

1. Looking at bad examples of people whose baana and action are not in synch

2. incomplete understanding of significance of things or concepts, hence terming those as rituals.

Amritdhari Sikh is a saint soldier, who knows - sab kuch tera, tera, tera...

But somehow I feel, ur inner quest is going to take you to an actual Singh, in the presence of whom all your doubts would wash away in a moment. Ardaas karo ji - Saadh Sangat Bakhsho ji.

Best Regards.

[newAgeSikh]

An Amritdhari Sikh is one who follows what was laid out by Guru Gobind Singh Ji in 1699 when they created the Panth Khalsa. Ancient Brahmins treated men and women unequally, different religions unequally, different castes unequally, different materials unequally, etc, etc. Guru JI told his Khalsa to be good, honest people and to treat everyone equally.

An ancient brahmins used to follow what their Guru have told them too, so I don't think it is any different from What Guru Gobind told AmritDhari Sikhs.

The teaching of treating equally doesn't seems to be practiced by 'AmritDhari Sikhs' at all. Where ever you go whether to Gurudwara or house. An AmritDhari Sikh always tend to make you feel lowely of yourself if you don't keep beard, hair or have small turbans or are not an AmritDhari Sikh. This is no different than a Brahmin treatment of a women, Shudra, or anyone else for that matter.

I don't think all Sikhs need to be Saint Soldier and not all Sikhs can. If you think Guru Gobind conveyed that the Sikh can only be a Saint Soldier then you are absolutely wrong.

A Sikh is a Sikh wether he is timid or strong, whether he is tall or short, dark or white. Only a Saint Sikh is a Sikh actually equate then a Sikh with Brahmin. Because not all people can be Saint and Soldeir. Killing a person is a human instinct not all humans are blessed with. So law of nature restricting Sikhs to be Saint Soldier makes the religion too narrow.

Grow up 'AmritDhari Sikhs' this is new age and should have new rules. A Sikh need not be a Soldier. TIme is to prevail peace and not wars. We need more human and saint but not Soldiers.

[ThinkingOne]

An actual amrtidhari singh is the humblest of all, to practise equality.

Please dont let ur own a few experiences belittle 'The Singhs'.

Best Regards.

[newAgeSikh]

Wearing Kirpans and keeping beards is not an empty ritual, their significance can be readily found anywhere. Just because you dont understand them, doesnt mean a Sikh who has them is narrow minded. Guru Gobind Singh Ji created the Khalsa in his own form, and criticizing an Amritdhari Singh who genuinely follows what Guru Sahib Ji laid out is wrong. I humbly suggest that you read through Sikh History, Sikh Teachings, and then the Rehat Maryada before making a comment such as "The AmritDhari Sikhs are more narrower than Brahmins of ancient India."

These are no more than empty rituals. You are trying to show that you are not like Brahmins but you are more narrower than today's brahmins. You are like ancient Brahmins. Wearing Turbans for no reasons at all, having long hair, wearing a bangle seems to like following something that have been just told to do without any relevance to the society you live in.

Brahmins used to do the same and you are doing it too. If you are not asking questions and you are trying to shut people up by saying that our Guru has told us to do this and hence we should do this is absurd.

You have your own mind and can understand if you try to find whether or not htese things are empty rituals or has any significance to the life you are living.

I just want to narrate an incident, recently one of my friend died of a motor cycle accident in India because he was wearing turban and not Helmet.

What it shows that you ready to die foolish honoring an empty ritual that has no bearing to today's life. If you are really a Saint Soldier than change the turban to a Helmet and change your Kirpan to AK-47. Thats what many in India seems to be preaching because that what you see if you visit Amritsar.

[Mehtab Singh]

You might wanna take up this issue with the one who started the Khalsa - Guru Gobind Singh Jee Himself.

Please come back and tell us how it went.

[Guest]

You might wanna take up this issue with the one who started the Khalsa - Guru Gobind Singh Jee Himself.

Please come back and tell us how it went.

Good one veer ji

[palm_w1]

look geez if u don't like the way other sikhs around u behave don't follow them. no need to go around preaching your views and bellitling everyone else. because if u stand back and analyse it you are doing exactly what u r accusing all the sikhs u know of doing, i.e. preaching and looking down at you.

enjoy your new age 'sikh' values, be very peaceful and turn the other cheek or whatever it is u do. if u don't want to keep a turban and chop off your kes then go for it, if its what u believe then do it. no point in complaining. if u believe wearing a turban is an empty foolish ritual don't do it.

peace

[newAgeSikh]

Thanks for enlightment 'palm_w1' veerji, thats exactly what I should do. Keep mum and let the community figure out what is good for it.

I used to think that communities become great whenone everyone has the right to question and know what is going in the community. Taking part and reshaping is what make community great. I wanted to contribute my 2 cents.

I cann't see the Sikh community plagued with the same disease the Hindu community used to be plagued with against what the Guru Nank fought his first battle. We it seems fast approaching to the following arrangement

AmritDhari Sikhs ------ hindu Brahmins ' Who actual rules the Religion and has powerful influence in Sikh Politics'

Normal Turbaned Sikhs --- Hindu Kstriya/Buisness class ' Who has the political power and are influenc eof AmritDhari Sikhs'

SahjDhari Sikhs --- -- Fastly becoming equivalent of Hindu Shudras.

So I'm just trying to voice my concern that is it this Guru Nank Started the faith for.

What went wrong where? is my quest.

[Sukhi]

what went wrong... and is actually continuing to go wrong newAgeSikh is that people are becoming less and less tolerant of each other.

you accuse amritdhari sikhs of being full of ego and pride. you're accusing them of being full of themselves and treating others like they're inferiors.

yes, there are some who are like that. but i'm sure that there are just as many who are quite humble, patient and tolerant.

you seem to be quite the hypocrite. you talk about peace, patience, equality and tolerance.

but what i see instead is how you are insulting members of the sikh community, losing patience in some of your threads by insulting SA members, creating divisions between the different kinds of Sikhs out there and being completely intolerant of the beliefs of Sikhs who choose to follow the path by taking amrit, keeping their kesh, kirpan, kanga, kara and kachera.

before you set out to transform the community, please try to transform yourself. if you wanna see a real change in the community then i suggest you first become that change you wish to see in others... Gandhi said that... and we all have our own personal opinions on him... but i agree with this one thing he said...

[palm_w1]

fair enough to your quest. only thing is u talk bs, such as equating amritdharis to brahmins etc. u may have come across amritdharis who are narrow minded but u seem to make a point of labelling all amritdahris as such. i can point out to you that i am not amritdhari and know many people who are, and almost all of them are decent human beings. yet u seem to insist on labelling them all. why? perhaps it hides an ulterior motive of trying to malign khalsa sikhs in general.

if u want to advertise your new cult go for it, but don't malign others on mass without knowing anything about them. give ur 2 rupees all u want. everyone has a right to question but it just seems that ur posts come across as more dictatorial and matter-of-fact than they do as questioning.

e.g. The AmritDhari Sikhs are more narrower than Brahmins of ancient India.

doesn't seem like a question, comes across as more of a factual statement.

p.s. u seem to say ancient hindus, what the hindu community used to be plagued with etc etc. are u implying that the hindu community no longer has these issues?

[palm_w1]

damn, u beat me to it sukhi

[Sukhi]

lol... the early bird gets the worm, palm... lol

[newAgeSikh]

you seem to be quite the hypocrite. you talk about peace, patience, equality and tolerance.

fair enough to your quest. only thing is u talk bs, such as equating amritdharis to brahmins etc. u may have come across amritdharis who are narrow minded but u seem to make a point of labelling all amritdahris as such. i can point out to you that i am not amritdhari and know many people who are, and almost all of them are decent human beings. yet u seem to insist on labelling them all. why? perhaps it hides an ulterior motive of trying to malign khalsa sikhs in general.

Thanx for your response Sukhi_v and palm_w1 Veer ji's.

Let me make one thing clear I don't have any motive other than to learn more about Sikh community and to improve the community of the problems I feel it has so as to provide my future generation a community I think I belong too and would love to be a part of it.

Let me put as question the following:

-- 'Can a non AmritDhari Sikh become a Gurdwara priest'

If not then whats the difference between that 'AmritDhari Sikh and Brahmin in Hindu society'.

-- 'Can a Sahjdhari Sikh perform Kirtan at Darbar Sahib, Amritsar'

If not then whats the difference between a Sahjdhari Sikh and Shudra in ancient Hindu society as in today's Hindu society Shudras are allowed to go into the temples.

I don't talk BS but it seem you do.

A community cannot grow beyond these pit falls if people like me won't question. Might is right seems to be the motto now a days in Sikh community. Whether you take up the election to Gurudwara's board or Akal Takhat.

[Guest]

-- 'Can a Sahjdhari Sikh perform Kirtan at Darbar Sahib, Amritsar'

If not then whats the difference between a Sahjdhari Sikh and Shudra in ancient Hindu society as in today's Hindu society Shudras are allowed to go into the temples.

Let me try answering your this question-

There was this puratan time where not only sahjdhari sikh but muslim(sufi's) and hindu bhagats used to sing gurbani (praises of akaal purkha) at Harmander Sahib.

This practice was changed-

I asked one of the gurmukh why this practice was stopped.

He told me that when muslims used to sing gurbani after singin they used to go back to their mosque and ask forgiveness from allah that "Haie Allah Suno Maff Karo, Asi Kafira di Bani Parri Haie".

Its clear that they sing just for the money.

When this was known widely in sikh community. This practice was stopped even though there were good people who were non-sikhs used to sing gurbani at Golden temple.

However, as wise people say:

One flithy animal, contiminate the whole pond.

[Pheena]

you need to listen to this....Its the recent Katha by Giani Sant Singh Maskeen ji on Amrit because you clearly have no idea what a Brahmin is. ..give me few mins to upload it.

[commander]

-- 'Can a non AmritDhari Sikh become a Gurdwara priest'

If not then whats the difference between that 'AmritDhari Sikh and Brahmin in Hindu society'.

That's an absurd comparison. Could you become a Brahmin if you wanted to?

-- 'Can a Sahjdhari Sikh perform Kirtan at Darbar Sahib, Amritsar'

If not then whats the difference between a Sahjdhari Sikh and Shudra in ancient Hindu society as in today's Hindu society Shudras are allowed to go into the temples.

Again, an absurd comparison. First, a Sehajdhari to me is someone who maintains his kes, and does naam simran as best he can. As for Keertan, even non-Sikhs have performed Keertan at the Darbar Sahib in the past. Anyone who accepts the Guru is welcome to partake in the Amrit, even a "Shudra".

A community cannot grow beyond these pit falls if people like me won't question. Might is right seems to be the motto now a days in Sikh community. Whether you take up the election to Gurudwara's board or Akal Takhat.

Take a careful look at your posts. You assume, mock, deride and insult. There is no humility in your manner. These are not the ways of a Gursikh.

[giani_g]

-- 'Can a Sahjdhari Sikh perform Kirtan at Darbar Sahib, Amritsar'

If not then whats the difference between a Sahjdhari Sikh and Shudra in ancient Hindu society as in today's Hindu society Shudras are allowed to go into the temples.

Well I've seen a Muslim (well he was wearing a topi thing so its safe to assume) performing kirtan at Harmander Sahib so obviously yes. Another thing is that all Gurdwaray are equal therefore it wouldn't matter which Gurdwara is in question.

You've been told many times and I'll tell you myself that you should read up before making silly accusations. You're not trying to debate a point, you're trying to demolish and devalue our beliefs so that you can giggle away behind the safety of your monitor. People like you should get a life, if you got a problem with some Sikhs who are bullying you then don't come whining to us, this isn't social security.

What do you want to get out of this because there isn't any point as we are firm in our belief and one little loser like you isn't going to change that.

Even the Jew on this forum has far greater respect than you a so called "Sikh". Go reform yourself before reforming anyone else.

[Pheena]

LISTEN TO THIS BEFORE YOU POST AGAIN:

http://www.evilcreations.net/pheena/SA/amrit_part_1.mp3 - 13.3MB

http://www.evilcreations.net/pheena/SA/amrit_part_2.mp3 - 9.47MB

[Sukhi]

Thanx for your response Sukhi_v and palm_w1 Veer ji's.

Let me make one thing clear I don't have any motive other than to learn more about Sikh community and to improve the community of the problems I feel it has so as to provide my future generation a community I think I belong too and would love to be a part of it.

Let me put as question the following:

-- 'Can a non AmritDhari Sikh become a Gurdwara priest'

If not then whats the difference between that 'AmritDhari Sikh and Brahmin in Hindu society'.

-- 'Can a Sahjdhari Sikh perform Kirtan at Darbar Sahib, Amritsar'

If not then whats the difference between a Sahjdhari Sikh and Shudra in ancient Hindu society as in today's Hindu society Shudras are allowed to go into the temples.

I don't talk BS but it seem you do.

A community cannot grow beyond these pit falls if people like me won't question. Might is right seems to be the motto now a days in Sikh community. Whether you take up the election to Gurudwara's board or Akal Takhat.

ur very welcome newAgeSikh.

ur goal to participate in the community and try to improve upon our problems is a noble goal. i wish u luck in it.

but before you continue on this quest, maybe you should try really learning about what the problems are as well as gain some sort of understanding of Gurbani.

and i believe that ur two questions have already been answered, so i'm not gonna bother repeating what was said.

[palm_w1]

newAge, i have to agree with commander that ur analysis is totally flawed. shudras are allowed into hindu temples now (some neway) but they cannot become brahmin and therefore cannot run the temples. U r born brahmin, simple as. no other way to become one.

any1 can become amritdhari. shudra, brahmin, sikh, chinese, the list is endless. therefore anybody could go onto become a giani or run a gurudwara. ironically enough i don't think u even need to be amritdhari to run a gurudwara. many people on gurudwara commitees are not even kes dhari, never mind amritdhari.

so in answer to ur question:

'Can a non AmritDhari Sikh become a Gurdwara priest'

yes. tell the person to learn about sikhi. take amrit, and i am sure no1 will be to fussed if he becomes a giani. i don't think sikhs actually have priests per se.

"Take a careful look at your posts. You assume, mock, deride and insult. There is no humility in your manner. These are not the ways of a Gursikh."

i agree with this analysis. yet u say u r just looking for answers. that is what leads me to believe u have ulterior mtives.

[Guest]

Guru Nanak tried to prove to the world that don't be obssessed with rituals, tries to search for truth.

New-Sikh-age

What do you this ritual is? Because if I take your examples then brushing out teeth will be another ritual Sikhs follow?

He showed at many places bu the 'Haridvar Incident' or 'Macca Incident'.

How do you relate Haridwar incident and Macca to Amritdharis Sikhs being narrow minded?

SO by looking for truth is the work of a true Sikh. By just accepting what some AmritDhari Sikh says is not being a true Sikh.

And denying what they say is also not truth. Truth exists in our Sikh history, Rehatnamas and Gurbani and we try to recall truth by doing Sikh Ardas on a daily basis. Do you think it says that wearing turban and keeping beard are rituals? If not, then how did you come to this conclusion?

I need to still find the truth behind why to wear turban or keep beard because as Guru Nanak showed us that blindly following ritual will make us no better than the Brahmins of ancient India.

You have two things to prove here. First prove that wearing turban and keeping beard is ritual. Second, prove that Guru Nanak Sahib message of not following absurd rituals makes keeping beard and wearing turban another ritual?

Are you trying to say that Bhaji Mati Das, Bhaji Sati Das, Bhai Taru Ji, Baba Deep Singh, Bhaji Mani Singh and other great Gursikhs were following rituals not Gurmat?

Also, how come social degradation of few Amritdhari Sikhs makes all Amritdhari Sikhs narrow minded? Are you being open minded?

The AmritDhari Sikhs are more narrower than Brahmins of ancient India.

I don't think you have experience of worldwide Amritdhari Sikhs, so stop judging them all. Where do you live? San Jose? Do you think San Jose holds all Amritdhari? If not then how come you can make such a bold statement?

[Infernal Monk]

Hey "NewAgeSikh" hope you know that there is no priestly class in Sikhism like in Christianity. Any one can perform the service provided they know what they are doing. See that is the key phrase because not everyone knows how to lead the service. Those gaini's we have are there because Sikhism is what they have studied and they are much better suited at performing service. And the reason why many of them have hair is because on their path to learning about Sikhism they realized the importance of kes. See the logic there? So anyone can perform the service provided they know what they are doing.

And if I may point out, every single thread you have posted complains about the turban and beard. I'm beginning to think this is less and less about you learning about Sikhism and more about getting rid of the turban and beard.

[Xylitol]

'Can a non AmritDhari Sikh become a Gurdwara priest'

There is no priestly class in Sikhism. Anyone qualified may do the duties.

The purpose of Gurdwaras is to bring people closer to God and Guru. I feel that the persons conducting services should themselves be far enough along in their paths that they at least follow the Guru's hukum enough to get Amrit chuk. Numeruous times in Gurbani the importance of giving our head to the Guru is mentioned. Those who haven't even followed this basic rehit of getting Amrit chuk and abstaining from tobacco/alcohol, extramarital sexual relations, kes cutting, and mas should not be up on stage lecturing to us about how to be better sikhs.

If you want to do this then I suggest you get amrit chuk, abstain from kurhaits, do your paat and simran, and become educated. Reform yourself along the lines that our all-knowing Gurus set out for us, and then become a giani so you can help others do the same.

Much of your questioning seems to based on a lack of understanding on what Amrit is. Amrit joins us with the Guru. Without Amrit, we have no Guru. This is written in Bhai Gurdass Ji's Vaars. Those are also Gurbani and were called the 'keys to the Guru Granth Sahib' by the Guru himself! Without a Guru, we cannot become one with God.

I hope I have not offended you. That was not my intention at all.