Sau Sakhi 64

[tSingh]

I think people generally oversimplify this one (including the mighty Gyani Sant Singh Maskeen Ji if I've understood him correctly).

You do not become sattvik simply by eating dal and chaval. It would be great if it were that simple. Tamogunik food, generally makes you feel bloated and lazy. Doesn't mean you'll be angry, only apathetic (thats the quality of tamogun, apathy).

Sattvik on the other hand can only be effective when you've become MUCH more subtle inside, which requires a bit of earnest practice and self-control.

In otherwords, when everything (not just yr food) is being toned down and calmed, then you'll find that sattvik has a real effect as I've experienced. You feel very light (if you go too sattvik like I did at uni way back, you go so light you faint or go really dizzy which was quite fun), and your mind is incredibly calmed...its almost dreamy but very alert of what happening inside. Loads of poise and calmness.

Yet I'm sure if you ate like 15 roti and 2 pans full of makhani dal then there's no effect - other factors are involved. So if a veggie is some crazed angry marxist like one of my freinds, who also drinks a lot of booze and coffee, you end up being a puney hothead (hehe).

Eat loads of meat like the Japanese do and still maintain a bit of meditation, you'll be calm and probably quite sleepy.

[shaheediyan]

Yes, that is what i was sort of alluding to also.

It's the change in the character that creates the "gun" change and the change in the lifestyle i.e. food, temperament etc, not the other way around.

I wasn't aware that the Japanese slept?

[drawrof]

I believe the japanese do sleep like most species, but I am not sure that they sleep as much as punjabi's as punjabi's are tribal orangutangs

[guv]

You do not become sattvik simply by eating dal and chaval. It would be great if it were that simple. Tamogunik food, generally makes you feel bloated and lazy. Doesn't mean you'll be angry, only apathetic (thats the quality of tamogun, apathy).

The aspect of the khalsa that is tamogun is the yudh khalse. Correct me if I'm wrong. If tamogun is laziness & apathy, how does that fit the model?

I believe the japanese do sleep like most species, but I am not sure that they sleep as much as punjabi's as punjabi's are tribal orangutangs

Will you be my guru?

[shaheediyan]

"The aspect of the khalsa that is tamogun is the yudh khalse"

Actually, I think it's Rajogun. In Sanjam Kriya, the middle finger (which represents worldy affairs/powers) is touched to the thumb.

The index finger is use in meditation for bhagati (as per sant lok), and the finger is used in meditation by those with untoward agendas.... i.e. the dark side.

Just what I've heard.

[tSingh]

tamogunic in the spitirual sphere only! Not aware of subtlety, not raging mind full of activity but a numbed one-mindedness ready for some slapping and chopping.

[drawrof]

I would ask that tSingh Kindly provide references from gurbani proving that sikhi has a japanese root/foundation. I have only seen jap and not jap an....in gurbani. I have even checked bhai gurdas ji's vaaran on sikhitothemax.com and I don't see anything. Thanks veerji!

[drawrof]

Guv veerji,

I can not be your guru. This is blissfo'me of the guru khalsa institutionings and I feel that DAS is not enough of a gursikh to be elected 5 pyaray. Hence, I suggest you go and get pesh from panj pyaray but please confirm whether they jap-naam or jap-an as some veerji's on this forum would like to thinks!

I am still your veer and will proceed with my astar when I give you a hug!

[tarkhansingh]

ok lets say the Nihungs have the Rajomatic lifestlye, ie... the chatka'ing of bakaray and the practising of Shastar vidiya. however...

am i the only one that seems to think Nihungs are have just beocme shastardhari nirmalay. i mean they just stress do bani do simran etc. Read about the old school nihungs, guys had arms the size of tree trunks, practise shastar vidiya none stop, were just a ferocious force in war, no one would dare going up against them without an army behind them. Look at the nihungs nowadays, not a force at all, try comparing them to any army, and there is no comparison. The Khalsa Fauj brought down the whole Mohgul Raj, could the Nihungs do that now? no way by the looks of it. Nihungs have gotten soft. This is where i applaud the efforts of Niddar Singh in UK who seems like one of these old school guys, dude works during the day, spends all the rest of his time teaching shastar vidiya.

Don't get me wrong, I plan to take khande di pahul form nihung singhs this year, just pointing out what i see. Tsingh would love your input on this one.

[tSingh]

Well, I'm not really qualified to comment on Nihangs. I don't believe one size fits all, ever, and expect alsorts of mutations. Plus I'm thinking of that old painting of the Nihang outside Akaal Boonga with a mala and in dhyan asana, so I recognise that some Nihangs (particularly the likes of Baba Darshan Singh and Baba Mit Singh down in the deccan) were Sant Mahapurush in that sense without losing their edge...but I would generally agree with you, that if we remove AKJ beliefs of some kind of 'naam shakti' from the equation, then the Nihangs would have to possess a sustained mindset that was ever pitched ready to slap and chop. I mean one of the things I took from Usatd Ji was always checking out yr environment, keep yr hands close to yr shastar, don't let anyone get too close in all senses. He taught it, but you watch him and he's always doing it. His websites are doing it, covering yr back all the time while making chops! To think like that all the time is very demanding...but its being ever ready to chuck everything you've got into it. That does not mean by proxy nihangs are 'demons' as some are suggesting, since they are fundamentally driven by ideas of dharma as opposed to adharma of Raavan, etc. It is in this sense that I've said that nihangs are generally more concerned with mukti through shaheed, rather than pavittar man, tan and virtues of sat, santokh, dyaa, etc in the spiritual sense. Doesn't mean they haven't got these virtues, but they manifest in a different rajoguni and tamoguni manner. As the Udasis said, 'they're aim is opposite to ours'.

[tarkhansingh]

So lets talk in terms of someone coming into Sikhi, like myself. One must evaluate or try to come to terms what Maharaj wants them to do, to either focus on the martial side (rajoguni) or the tamoguni side.

I remember one singh was telling me about a Nihung Baba who is now a Jathedar of a Dal, which im not sure if i should name or not... but When Baba ji was of a young age he was a sevadhar for a Sant Mahapursh, I think maybe he had roots with the Nirmala sampardiya. He was a sevadhar for this Sant and really didn't care about Nihungs or anything about them. This singh asked the Nihung Baba why he became a Nihung, and he said the Sant he was doing seva for sent him to the Dal. The Sant took him and said, your seva is here, not with me. From then he remained with Budha Dal, and is still carrying on seva today. So this shows that this Nihung Baba was guided by a Sant to show him where his seva was needed.

How does one find where his seva is needed? How did you tSingh understand your place was with the Nirmala Sampardiya?

Nowadays there really isn't a Dharam Yudh you can just jump into, and although there is a need for 'protectors' which the Nihungs should be (and arnt really doing it that well) do you think they have gone 'extinct' ?

[tSingh]

Knowing which seva is for you is about knowing what it is that drives you. The traditions are there, and they are valid. I think Ustad ji is the person to talk to about why such traditions are important to maintain. I agree with you that the context has changed, the idea of 'defending the faith' nowadays has become something far more complex, particularly since the vast majority of the 'attacks' over the last 60 years have been ideological in implication (punjabi language, bias against sikhs per se, the actions of congress being understood by some to be to destroy sikhi, etc). I mean does a man dressing up as Guru Gobind Singh Ji (who also happens to dress up like Captain black and a klingon on other occasions) constitute a threat to Sikhi? No i don't think so. But he has been very disrespectful and I can sympathise why people demanded action against him. This means that the response of Nihangs depends on their views about the implied bias or veiled threat. Most samprdas I've seen we're way back and still are congressi. They don't believe that congress are out to destory sikhi (some I've spoken to see the 80s as dirty politics, partly a legacy of the Akalis diminished understanding of Sikhi, mixing in religious sentiments, and then one gigantic and incredibly demented act on the part of the ailing Indira Gandhi. The nihangs were active at the village level need for justice. Nirmalay, Udasis and Sevapanthis only saw themselves getting bumped off by kharkoo when they appealed for a bit of vivekbudhi.)

So then for some it becomes an issue of authenticity. Do I wish to accept my own ideas on what Sikhi is? Do I feel confident with that? Or do you turn to models of Sikhi, some clearly more distorted over time than others. I think thats the bit where people look back to as early as possible...and that requires a bit of research too. For some UK Nihangs this is about the correct ideological, philsophical and practical model of Sikhi in its larger context. While the practical side of it seems to be still there, I presume (and as I say I'm not the person to ask) the ideological and philosophical/metaphysical elements have faded away over the last 100 years.

The Nihang jathedar, well clearly the Sant recognised that his understanding of Sikhi was different. Of course there is Jathedar Nihal Singh Ji who is effectively a Sant, some of his practices I've heard of are Sant like, and like Raja Janak he is grihasth. Not surprisingly his dal all hold a similar understanding of Sikhi and have moved away from the tamoguni elements. Vice versa there were Nirmalay who were initially faujis but started questionning what it was all about. But I'm sure you'll feel it when you're over there!

[tarkhansingh]

well tSingh, the nihal jathedar was coincidently the very Baba Nihal Singh Ji.

Recent times have shown a lot of change in Nihung Marayda, which I am sure you are aware of. You are more familiar in the Nirmala Sampardiya, so what if/any changes have occured recently in terms of practise? You said i think for Nirmalay or Udasis, it really depends on the Mahant running the dera, so that would mean a lot of different changes wouldn't it over time?

[tSingh]

Changes, your talking maryada, Im talking mindset. Not so much differences in what they do, but in how they think. Generally its fixed around the nirmala tradition of vedantic learning, deeper exploration of the terms, etc. But each great Nirmala historically has worked with what they've studied and emphasised certain aspects e.g. Pandit Ishar Singh Kashiwale uses more Advaiata language, Pandit Tara Singh Narottam emphasises the bhakti element through the many conceptual delineations of vaishnav schools (i.e. the 12 ras, the different bhaavs, etc)...so it changes that way. Plus over the last 100 years some maryada changes have occured in nominal things like peaches being saved for a rainy day, less traditional arti, etc. Also the main thing is that each parampra at some point has developed its own kind of angle, in the sense that some are more overtly shastardhaari than others, the Santpura Nirmalay for example back when they were in Gujranwala (I think) pre-partition celebrated their 'amritdhari jathas' with group photos, etc. There was even once a smaller parmpra of women nirmalay in one akhara, so its a two-way thing also.

[wahegurubol]

Sau Sakhi 64

“Stand in a line, if you are to bare weapons and wish to up hold the duty of a warrior, then hunt keeping the warrior duty in mind and eat meat. If you wish to follow the vegetarian way, or the way of Saints, then meat eating is forbidden. He who contemplates God’s name and is of the of Sato Gun character, he should not eat meat, for meat eating promotes Tams Gun. He, who wishes to fight for righteousness and protect the weak in battle, has to spill many people’s blood and should be ready to sacrifice himself. He should hunt, eat meat, and should have no fear because he is but doing his warrior duty. But, remember this, eating meat for just pleasure of tongue or vice is a sin --’â€.’

(‘Sau Sakhi Steek’, by Partap Singh Mehta, Vol.2, Pa. 136-137)

Considering sikhs in this modern-age.. do you think sikhs of present-times need to eat meat..when especially majority of us are not even training to be warriors.

secondly, can warriros who eat meat still get mukti , can they still concentrate on simran, bani ..etc and shold they hunt the meat themselves or buy from the local store !

i dont eat meat personally.

[jassasingh]

well if u die in battle field u will get mukti in the end ... because dieing in battle field will get u in avstha that sadhu will get after hundred years of jaap and taap ... and here diet doesn't matter ...

[Niranjana]

Considering sikhs in this modern-age.. do you think sikhs of present-times need to eat meat..when especially majority of us are not even training to be warriors.

Absolutely, for a balanced diet, there is nothing wrong with the comsumption of meat.