marriage and sex

[Sukhi]

i know that some people are gonna jump on you for your comments on drinking and nashe and blah blah blah. but i'm gonna take your example and expand on it.

like you said, every Punjabi Sikh "knows" that drinking alcohol is "bad". well, every Punjabi Sikh knows that disrespecting women who should be their equals is also bad. why else would they hide the fact that they disrespect their women and treat them like shit?

of course women aren't men. i'd be deluding myself if i believed that. but you've got to be kidding yourself with the rest of your comments.

who gave men their power? and who says that women have no power? just because some people don't readily identify women as having power, it doesn't mean that they don't have it. both sexes have power, regardless of what other people believe and how it's used. (trust me on this one, if your momma didn't have power in the house, your upbringing would've been very different.)

mentioning a couple of Kaurs doesn't mean that you should automatically attribute all other women with those qualities. similarly, thinking of the Gurus doesn't necessarily make me associate pure virtues with all men. (hahaha!) my purpose in bringing up those examples of Kaurs was to show you that the Gurus DID think women deserved respect and honour because they had equal rights to receive the same privileges and status that men enjoyed.

i don't understand how easily you can dismiss the idea that Sikhi has a quality of male-female equality. this aspect of Sikhi may not have been explored as much as other aspects in Sikhi, but it's there for sure. and i'm not gonna rehash all my examples for you. nor am i gonna do your research all over for you.

you said that you had researched Sikhi and couldn't find any examples of male-female equality. that's strange considering i've done the same and have found many examples of it. maybe it's because i went looking for it, and you didn't. or maybe our methods differed.

but i sincerely doubt that it's possible for you to reinterpret Gurbani to support your idea that the Gurus didn't promote male-female equality.

you dismiss culture very quickly as well. and that's a mistake too many people make when looking at things relevant in Sikhi today. culture affects a lot of things in our lives from the way we perceive ourselves to the way we perceive the world. no doubt that life seems very different to a person who was raised in Nordic culture to a person raised in Buddhist culture.

therefore, which teachings were deemed important and which teachings were thought of as minor also depend on culture and the people who are part of it.

there's no doubt that people back in the day weren't too excited about giving women their rightful place in society. and i've no doubt that as the teachings of our Gurus were diluted from generation to generation, the emphasis put on certain things was increased and decreased as seen fit by those in power. and i'm certain that by a certain time, older cultural beliefs didn't leave too many women in control of many things.

the religion does have an unambiguous stance on the topic. but i'm not sure you can grasp the extent to which cultural beliefs can affect religion and religious beliefs.

you ask how it's possible to rectify certain problems when we keep blaming culture. well, it starts with things like leaders taking positive steps, which the Gurus did. and from there, it moves onto the people themselves, who should make those changes.

and some people did make changes. they did challenge their cultural beliefs. and they ended up carrying their beliefs of equality past cultural boundaries. but many people didn't make the effort and some communities got lost in the eternal battle for male-female equality.

the point is to start somewhere, with perhaps only one family and to let it grow from there. which it has.

yes, this culture of male domination was the same as when the Gurus founded our religion. and they did address it. (how many times do i have to say that?!)

and they didn't just deal with a few simple breaches of rights. they dealt heavy blows to the woman-hating culture of the time. and i don't know how much damage they did to the culture back then, but i can definitely tell you that it must've been enough to scare others who didn't have the same ideas.

okay, so you don't know why men should have power except that's how it's always been.

well, then... we should all continue to believe that the world is flat. why? cuz that's how the world was thought of for far longer than the tiny bit of time in which we realized that the world wasn't like that.

but that wouldnt be right cuz we've gained knowledge from the latter idea.

well, we've gained a lot of knowledge and benefits from thinking of women and treating them as equals as well.

and i don't agree with you on whether the Gurus had a problem with it or not. if they didn't have a problem with it, then they wouldn't have bothered with gettin rid of the burka (or whatever being veiled was called back then) or sati, or making a point of having women lead dharamsalas or a whole lot of other stuff.

so you have a problem with the power imbalance. well, fyi, many other people have issues with it too. but we don't get upset and decide that women are no longer equal to men because some idiots don't know how to treat women properly. we hold onto our beliefs and fight for them in our own ways, as small as they may be.

what have you done to propagate equality among the sexes, sexysingh? where do you think your beliefs on extra-marital affairs is going to take you in terms of changing things for the betterment of women?

personally speaking, i think i agree very much with Pheena's suggestion to your future wife in response to your original query. there shouldn't be a double standard. that's one step to getting rid of the inequality that exists between men and women where there should be none.

what is the truth?

is the truth that women as treated as powerless because they truly are powerless? or is the truth something else? is the truth that women are subjugated because they have come to believe that they truly aren't equal to men and so continue on generation from generation in a cage partially built by their own beliefs?

maybe.

is the truth that women have been treated without equal status to men because those in power don't like the idea of having to change their beliefs to accomodate the truth?

maybe.

whatever the truth is, it most definitely won't change the current status of the situation:

1. that the Gurus fought for male-female equality through their actions and the words they said.

2. male-female equality does not exist as it should in many parts of the world.

3. many people do nothing to propagate equality among the sexes.

4. that it's wrong for you to expect to cheat on your wife and not let her do the same to you because you think your dominant and powerful.

i'm not blaming culture. but i am implicating that culture forms a lot of our ideas and beliefs and those beliefs lead us to our current views on inequality among the sexes.

sorry for the long post, but i had nothing better to do than bore you all...

[Dynamic_Banda]

religion is a part of society.. yet society is not a religion., that is why there are variations on belief amongst followers of the same religion but in different areas.

Women in the west are seen as equal meaning to be the same as, women in the east are identified as women and are seen as equal meaning to be neither less or more in value. The reason the east has that view is because its always had an understanding for those who feel they are the same as (such as sukhi) they had third gender (lol now she gonna kick my a$$- bring on the wrath of sukhi), in the west everything was seen as poloraized one or the other true or false.. Good or bad.. man or woman.. with that kind of mind frame, and a tendency to catagorize everything into boxes for administration purposes.. its a roman influence.. everything had to be labeled and numbered..

Eastern methods were to incorporate numerology or use astronomy or just not give a shit about numbers and facts and just hold onto the root values. hence most of indian dates, stories myths and everyhing can be interlinked and interwoven as their basis is the concept not the fact.

For this reason a woman is admired, women are held in positions of awe, a woman is worshipped as the creator of the home and preserver of the family. The same is seen in maharajs bani.. Women are valued for their ability to bring joy and pleasures to a home (hence the whole rituals which go with the marriage ceremony and so on) and I could go on but Im not going to bother..

Yes women did also go beyond their roles as wives and preform great acts of heroism, such as kill people and lead battles and so forth.. however where these women in a grist setting ? or those regarded as kasi fauja (casterated warriors- third genders). History has shown that these women also had great honour and valour which is why the maryada of giving women amrit began, acknowleding that they too had a place in the khalsa (military army of the panth not khalsa as in how modern sikhs see it).

Sexy singh is therefore correct in noticing that women are not as equal as we may like to believe, however like i mentioned above from which mind set are you judging their equality ? western thought or eastern ?

Sukhis response is a wicked example of girl power spice girls ideas, and its valid argument.. However I would like to turn the tables for a second. I want to know why men are not treated equally ?

Why is it that women control men ? I know alot of men like to think they are in control but one phone call from the wife and the have to go back home, the only time they are allowed out is if their destination is en route to a suit sari shop or a sahelis house..

Why are women only allowed to experience the wonder of child bearing and child birth. Why when men also have nipples can only women create milk ? Why when men can conqour the world can only a woman create a home ? Why do men not have a clitorus ? In fact I believe it is men who are treated unequaly not by society but by God.. ! God is a feminist or a lesbian.

Funny thing is now after reading the above paragraph most womens reply will be damn right.. women are bad a$$ and you better accept it..

jai bajrang bali..

[Beast]

"Every panjabi (sikh) knows if you drink alcohol you are not being a good sikh. Ditto for the various nashe out there."

lol

[palm_w1]

Equality...strange notion...

...unless a man starts to menstruate and a woman starts to develop sperm, only then can they be considered "equal". (Discounting transgender individuals, androgens, and assuming that genetic manipulation has not been applied).

Each gender has its own strengths and weaknesses. The idea is to synergise and potentiate the other's good qualities to ensure the end result (whatever it may be) is of top quality. This notion of 'equality' seems very strange when men and women are inherently DIFFERENT. They may be 'equal' in a socio-economic sense (but even this is only relative to time, place and circumstance) - but lets not kid ourselves.

Every relationship by nature has/will have 'ups' and 'downs' - they are both important.

Trouble is that most people who seem to get into 'relationships' (casual or otherwise) are emotionally immature, lack life experience and shouldnt be allowed to vote let alone exercise their genitalia. As a consequence, we see kids having kids...

..all this breeds insecurity, emotional underdevelopment and in extreme cases this results in abuse (physical, mental, emotional, and sometimes even spiritual).

It seems an easy way to appear "cool" is for blokes to state that they think women are 'equal' and think that men and women have 'equal rights' in marriage. Its a great way to pull a girl, but its a load of tripe...

(Women ar far superior - its just that in the vast majority of societies today, the male is 'dominant' as we still have a long way to go before we completely shed our inate 'caveman' genes).

seems like you are trying to justify keeping women as subjugated persons in indian culture while trying to argue some how that in their subservience they are free and very important. this is not the case. perhaps it has something to do with your jathabandi and their views.

Also i think it is ok for men to try and raise women up in society, most progressive socities already do this. Maybe this train of thought is used as a chat up line down ur sides but i can't really see how it works. its backward mentality like this that the taleban lot used to oppress women in afghanistan and somehow say they were doing them a favour. the notion of equality may indeed seem strange, especially when it threatens ones powerbase.

[Sukhi]

DB... you know what you're gettin into so i'm not gonna bother rehashing my "threats". (SA mods, i hope you don't think i'm too dangerous and kick me out.) btw, thanks for making me into a mahadevi with no gender/some funkadelic new one.

anywho... back to the original topic.

i was just waiting for someone to call me a western spice girls feminist biatch cuz of the way i was arguing against sexysingh.

my points are not to degrade women's roles in society. i don't think every woman needs to go out there and beat men senseless cuz of whatever reason. i don't think that if a woman chooses to stay at home that she's not being respected.

my point is merely that although women and men are different, they have equal worth.

the point isn't about getting all families to educate their women and send them into the work force in attempts to "liberate" the women. but rather to acknowledge the fact that they have the right to choose whether they wanna kick financial butt outside the home or slap their kids silly at home. tha's all.

DB... as far as i have seen, men haven't really been treated unequally. lol... and you need to quit smoking that weed! you should be thanking God for sparing men the experiences of child birth and everything associated with it. lol... but mebbe you should take those issues up with God. i'm just a reg'lar ole mahadevi. dun got all the answers in the world ya know.

BUT i do know what you're talkin about. and i agree with you. both men and women should be treated with respect. i know it sounds funny, but i don't support wives who abuse their husbands or manipulate them. tha's just not right. but this topic isn't about hubby abuse. get over it. lol...

[sexy_singh]

sukhi i think we are stuck in a violent agreement and im not diplomatic enough to understand our way through it. i just wonder, dont u look at religion and realise that it never considered woman to be an equal. Its as if god himself wished it that way. Muhammad, budda, jesus, moses, the gurus .. all men .. why doesnt god ever send a female prophet.

with respect to the sikh guru granth sahib, are any of the writings from a female saint or poet? religion is so shockingly slanted towards men. you mention the positive qualities admired of women. but has religion ever truly granted woman the place of equal. whos religious discourse have u have u heard .. that came from a womans mouth or pen?

the fact is, religion exists for one primary purpose and that is to control people to make societies. when we are making these societies its usually useful to have those who have little power and get them to do our bidding. women take that role. no one has really challenged that - no religious figure anyway.

us sikhs forget that religion is made for teh common man, to overcome his stupidity and ignorance and make him do essentially good -- for the good of all. but instead us sikhs claim religion is for the elite spiritual and all of this stuff. it isnt for those enlightened ppl. religion isnt. maybe faith is. but they are seperate things.

the sikh gurus must have known this, and if they wished for the masses to follow on the path of sex equality they would have taken steps to ensure the people at least widely knew what was "right" and "wrong". however this didnt happen.

i really dont know how to make this any more clear, the way i see it. but at least im getting one thing across and that is sikhism has way too much overhyped PR - especially about sex equality .. and this is undeserved. yes, teh early sikhs didnt grudgingly commit nasty crimes against the wmoen. they even campaigned for removing some of these. they rescued women and did all these cool things that we admire them for. im not disputing that.

we deny sexuality, and we deny feminine sexuality. one of the few ways women can have power. we give the women fixed roles of mothers and house keepers. and we rejoice because our faith gave us equality. but i dont think that was the case.

[Beast]

why does Gurbani sometimes refer to God in feminine terms?

[Narsingha]

With regards to female saints and Gurbani, there is a version of Adi Guru Durbar that is known as "Bhai Banno Wali Bir" that contains ballads by Mirabhai, the female Rajput Princess who is considered to be a saint....

This version of Adi Guru Durbar is considered equal to the copy of which is devoid of Mirabhai's ballads (well, within the Sanatan Sikh world it is....cant speak for the rest).

[Dynamic_Banda]

There is also the autobiography of Sukhi Spice.. DVD can be bought from amazon.com and the how to become a woMAN and not just a woman published by the SUKHIPANTHI conciousness society

[Sukhi]

sexysingh, i got one name fer ya: Joan of Arc.

narsinghi, tha's the first time i've ever heard of a variation called Adi Guru Darbar. is the only difference merely that Mirabhai's ballads are included?

DB... you're goin down. waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay down.

[sexy_singh]

beast. interesting point. why do you think?

sukhi nah joan doesnt count, she was just rehashing someone elses stuff.

ps. i agree that while sikhi never took rights away from women like other religions, i dont know if it actually *gave* rights to them either

[Beast]

Because God is formless? Or maybe some deeper metaphorical meanings where God is manifest in a female form

[Sukhi]

oh sexysingh, i forgot to address one of your comments in your previous post. the one about sexuality and how we're denying feminine sexuality and blah blah blah.

uh... i dunno bout who the "we" is in your statement. so if you could clarify, i'll get back to being my reg'lar argumentative person as usual.

secondly, the second i mention a female prophet, you have an argument to raise against her. well, tha's fine and dandy. i'll just list another female prophet/saint/whatever and you can continue dismissing them.

saint theresa of whatchamacallit. the one who could levitate. tha's all i remember. (i'm sick, gimme some credit here!)

[Pheena]

ps. i agree that while sikhi never took rights away from women like other religions, i dont know if it actually *gave* rights to them either

Lets say sikhi never gave right to women. So we should dominate them? So our Actions become Justified because, hey its not my fault that i am dominating Women, it is my religions fault because it never said i couldn't. So we need Religious Scriptures to spell out every single thing out for us. Do we need the scriptures to tell us the Obvious? We need a Sharia Law in Sikhi to Dictate our Lives Moment by Moment from Politics to Personal Affairs?

Lets say Sikhi did give Rights to Women, then no sooner we reaize this that we try to find loop holes. That hey Sikhi says Women can only do this, this and that, but not this. Then what, are we not back to square ONE? Again it is all about being Dominent. Marriage is not about Dominating, it CANNOT be. If it is about LOVE, if there is a hint of LOVE in Marriage then Dominatino cannot exist in such Love. Love is about Surrender, not Domination.

Can you not find the Answer in your heart, Can you not look at yoru Mother who is a Woman and see the Importence of her existence. Treat your Wife with the Same Respect as you would treat your Mother. Would you let you Father abuse her or belittle her existence because he is a Man? Would you let your Father disgrace her by cheating on her? How would you feel if he did? If you would not let this happen, then you have no right to do this to your wife because she will one day be a Mother and her child will be in your same position.

A Kingdom is like One Body which needs every Single part to do the work for it to exist. The Queen is the Heart of the Kingdom, without it there is no Feeling to feel the Pain and Love, no Compassion, no Love. King is the Swift and Sharp mind which reasons with Logic and intuition. Both are Equal in their Importence, but without the heart the Mind is Cold and Dry, the Heart is needed to Soften the Mind and see life with Compassion. It is a then that the Dual attributes becomes One and form one Soul, One Soul which is both Compassionate and yet strong enought to withstand its ground.

[sexy_singh]

beast, ok, actually can you point me to these feminine references.. im curious.

sukhi, well its true isnt it? the little tart with the mini skirt has more power over guys than not. its also good in a way that our older women dress conservatively. you dont wanna see some big auntys legs for example..

[Sukhi]

okay now you've got me really confused... what are you talking about?

Pheena that was a great post.

[Beast]

beast, ok, actually can you point me to these feminine references.. im curious.

sukhi, well its true isnt it? the little tart with the mini skirt has more power over guys than not. its also good in a way that our older women dress conservatively. you dont wanna see some big auntys legs for example..

lol, that requires me to make some sort of effort!

Lemme try and find some references

[Beast]

thoo maeraa pithaa thoohai maeraa maathaa ||

You are my Father, and You are my Mother.

thoo maeraa t(h)aakur ho dhaas thaeraa ||

You are my Lord and Master; I am Your slave.

thujh bin avar nehee ko maeraa ||1||

Without You, I have no one at all. ||1||

kar kirapaa karahu prabh dhaath ||

Please bless me with Your Mercy, God, and give me this gift,

thumharee ousathath karo dhin raath ||1|| rehaao ||

that I may sing Your Praises, day and night. ||1||Pause||

http://www.sikhitothemax.com/Page.asp?Sour...amp;PageNo=1144

[sexy_singh]

hmm i dunno man .. that seems like a fairly standard usage of the word father-mother, ie parent ... do you have any other references

im asking because someone told me that Waheguru is described as the "ultimate man" somewhere .. and that us humans are all sorta female .. the person also used a biological argument about hormones and stuff saying no one is born 100% male- its just some are more female than others. i dont know much about it so im looking into a deeper.

oh and pheena, i think your argument sounds reasonable. if they'd explictly set out rights that women should have then that might have been used against other rights of women in the future.

okay now you've got me really confused... what are you talking about?

im talking about denying feminine sexuality in our culture. dont u think it happens? i mean on one hand its the dress ..and on another the strong attitudes against male-female relationships outside of family relation. dont these attitudes serve to control or limit the female sexuality?

on a less serious note, i replaced the woman in my dreams with waheguru and now i dont know what to do.. thanks a lot beast!

[Beast]

hmm i dunno man .. that seems like a fairly standard usage of the word father-mother, ie parent ... do you have any other references

im asking because someone told me that Waheguru is described as the "ultimate man" somewhere .. and that us humans are all sorta female .. the person also used a biological argument about hormones and stuff saying no one is born 100% male- its just some are more female than others. i dont know much about it so im looking into a deeper.

...

on a less serious note, i replaced the woman in my dreams with waheguru and now i dont know what to do.. thanks a lot beast!

lol, happy dreams!

well, Bani is a personal thing. I'm not gonna tell you I'm right or vice-versa.

ps I've got a decent grounding in biology so I'd be interested to hear more abt the hormone thing!

[sikh_fauge]

I kinda know where your coming from sexy singh.

The only thing i would say is this..dont intentionally hurt someones sentiments..and since cheating on your wife would most definitely crush her (and might even push her to do the same) dont go there!

[sexy_singh]

exactly sikh fauje, in the end, thats what has sealed the argument for me. I thought it would be fun to have a fling .. just as a backup thing to keep me from putting too much expectation into marriage. the mere possibility of having that choice if we dont click. but now , listening to you guys, especially pheena and dynamical, im convinced i have some sort of duty to my wife.

in fact, what really brought that home was the fact the girls i talked to (my mate and sukhi ... i assume sukhi is a girl?) really cared that a husband would be loyal and wouldnt have affairs. I mean naturally i expect the same of my wife. but you'd think its totally different for girls - from their perspective. just the fact that it means so much to them, and to be honest, as important as sex is to me, it isnt all *that* much important.

so amazingly enough, i think i've learned something really valuable out of all this wishing to be a terrible-power-abusing-sex-driven-person. I've learnt that while the whole feminism thing is easy to do on your sleeve .. and its easy to call people out and feel just a bit more superior in your smugness .. its another thing to understand what MATTERS to females - and try to make sure, I myself dont trample those things. paradoxically, to get there, i had to argue for cheating on my wife. and even though i didnt really think it was cheating (maybe its a guy thing - "its just sex"), your responses are enough to convince me that it IS cheating.

pheena, you know, one would think the sort of posts you make, that they'd really get to me, and i'd take them as judgements on my character. but the way you expressed exactly what you though, and still remain humble - that was wicked. i actually went back and read through the whole thread .. and your replies .. they are spot on. thanks for the advice

a lot of the time i felt like i was playing devils advocate. but i think thats necessary sometimes, because often in our discussion forums - the average guy is not keen on highlighting his far-from-perfect ways .. but its important that it is done, because there are a lot of people in that group and a lot of issues and problems are related to them.

so when i find my wife, im gonna treat her as an equal. and thats not an empty rhetorical thing like narsingha mentioned. it will be something real, because i understand what is at stake and that im responsible for the state of our relationship - how happy and positive it is.

i really wanna more know about the way feminity and masculinity works in gurbani - it sounds like a rich and meaningful thing to study.

and finally, the discussion has allowed me to see another important concept. humanity is frought with inequalities. like we read in japji sahib, some are made high, some low. the ones who are higher must be responsible for their use of power .. and how they go about it ... and those are lower must fight and take heart in their position. they are the underdogs. its much easier to become content when you dont have a superiority complex to deal with. you just have to convince yourself that you ARENT inferior. then the hard part is doing your bit to remove harmful effects of inequality. everyone has to face the challenges of power.

[Narsingha]

sexy_singh, read (not watch) the Kamasutra.....

Also, you appear to have grossly misinterpreted the point I was making, nonetheless, I never suggested that any woman is "an empty rhetorical thing". I stated that a woman is in fact superior to a man according to both Indian and Khalsa Kyshatriya traditions :roll:

If you are so worried about this concept (considering the lengthy posts you have adopted), perhaps you should get married as soon as possible. Then take it from there rather than worry about the consequences on an internet forum...

[Sukhi]

oooooh my goodness. there IS a God. lol!

well, sexysingh, i was gonna suggest that you make a new thread in another section of our forum to discuss femininity and masculinity in sikhi and not keep it in here simply because this thread is pretty off topic.

i'm glad that even though i haven't convinced you of equality in a different sense, that you understand that cheating on your wife is wrong.

and it's not a guy thing. i think a lot of guys have agreed with the fact that having sex with someone other than your wife IS cheating. it's not just sex, dear ole sexysingh. lol...

now make a new thread so we have something new to discuss. quick!

[sikh_fauge]

but dont we all cheat to an extent?