Pheena Posted December 16, 2004 Report Share Posted December 16, 2004 Why does everything have to be so black and white all the time? ...life is colourful, varied, exotic if you want it to be (unless you wish to become a impotent fanatic and castrate yourself of the richness of creation). Why not learn to balance everything, and rather than take everything to logical extremes. We are not binary creatures. Veer ji, we could say that sex an expression of ones Love, which i do not disagree with. but if we limit the experssion of love to sex only, then it is limiting Love to a sensory perception. Can love only be expressed sexually? I am not against having sex, nor am i telling someone to castrate theirselves from the richness of creation. I am simply saying As Love between 2 individuals beings to grow, sex will diminish. It is not about being a impotent Fanatic, it is simply that the Love will no longer be expressed by a sense of touch, but by the extra senseory perception of the Heart. It will no longer be limited to our bodies, but to our souls. As Love Grows so does our methods of expression. It is not about repression, or cutting of your sexual organs inorder to remove sexual thoughts from your mind. it is about the evolution of Sexuality as Love Grows. Love evolves from the level of expression thru sex to the expression of Heart. It no longer resides at the level of Body, but at the level of Spirit. It is jumping from the understanding of Shades of Black and white to the Colorfull Spectrum of our True Potential. I am not saying don't have sex, it is your decision, nor am i telling someone to repress sexuality. Nor am i saying to indulge in it. I am not against Moderation, be Moderate, more power to you. I am simply expressing the potential taht Love has which takes you beyond the expression of Sex between 2 individuals. Perhaps this will clarify what i am trying to say: Once I was on a journey and someone asked me which word in a man's vocabulary was the most valuable. My reply was, "Love". The man was surprised. He said he had expected me to answer "soul" or "God". I laughed and said, "Love is God." Raising on the ray of love one can enter the enlightened kingdom of God. It is better to say that love is God than to say that truth is God, because the harmony, the beauty, the vitality and the bliss that are part of love are not part of truth. Truth is to be known; love is to be felt as well as known. The growth and perfection of love lead to the ultimate merger with God. The greatest poverty of all is the absence of love. The man who has not developed the capacity to love lives in a private hell of his own. A man who is filled with love is in heaven. You can look at man as a wonderful and unique plant, a plant that is capable of producing both nectar and poison. If a man lives by hate he reaps a harvest of poison; if he lives by love he gathers blossoms laden with nectar. If I mold my life and live it with the well-being of all men in mind, that is love. Love results from the awareness that you are not separate, not different from anything else in existence. I am in you; you are in me. This love is religious. The doors of love only open for the person who is prepared to let his ego go. To surrender one's ego for someone else is love; to surrender one's ego for all is divine love. Love is not sexual passion. Those who mistake sex for love remain empty of love. Sex is only a passing manifestation of love. It is part of nature's mechanism, a method of procreation. Love exists on a higher plane, and as love grows, sex dissipates. The energy that has been manifested in sex is transformed into love. Love is the creative refinement of sex energy. And so, when love reaches perfection, the absence of sex automatically follows. A life of love, an abstinence from physical pleasures is called brahmacharya, and anyone who wishes to be free from sex must develop his capacity to love. Freedom from sex cannot be achieved through supression. Liberation from sex is only possible through love. I have said that love is God. This is the ultimate truth. But let me say as well that love also exists within the family unit. This is the first step on the journey to love, and the ultimate can never happen if the beginning has been absent. Love is responsible for the existence of the family and when the family unit moves apart and its members spread out into society, love increases and grows. When a man's family has finally grown to incorporate all of mankind, his love becomes one with God. Without love man is an individual, an ego. He has no family; he has no link with other people. This is gradual death. Life, on the other hand, is interrelation. Love surpasses the duality of the ego. This alone is truth. The man who thirsts for truth must first develop his capacity to love—to the point where the difference between the lover and the beloved disappears and only love remains. When the light of love is freed from the duality of lover and the beloved, when it is freed from the haze of seer and seen, when only the light of pure love shines brightly, that is freedom and liberation. I urge all men to strive for that supreme freedom. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sukhi Posted December 17, 2004 Report Share Posted December 17, 2004 alright, welcome to another never-ending useless Sukhi post, filled with tons of meaningless questions and little to none answers. i'm goin in chronological order from the last post made on this page, to the last one made after my last post. capeesh? Pheena, why do we want to be liberated from sex? what does getting liberated from sex do if you're not attached to it in the first place? and if love can be expressed through sex, then it seems to me that sex isn't necessarily a bad thing. what i'm having issues with is how you say that sexuality has nothing to do with love and sex. sex is a direct result of lust and arousal. so if sex is an expression of love, then that lust/arousal is also an expression of love, isn't it? furthermore, in order to have a family and make that family possible, you need to have sex and lust to get things going... Shaka Laka Baby, there's reason no one really thinks much of Freud's theories these days. i'll give you one guess to figure out why. DB, tha's the first time i've seen so much sex in a post on SA. it's almost pornographic (kinda like the imagery of what Narsingha the guy does when he's makin those websites...*shudders*... i'm gonna have nightmares tonight for sure... scratching and biting...). anywho. do you wanna shed some more hair on how kaam is dependent on intention in all those forms of sex? and just a question... you mentioned how one form of vishnu sex, Krishan junior sex, is more playful and can involve more than 2 *ahem* participants. uh... wanna eskplain how that works with the current view of Sikhi as a monogamy-supporting faith? GKaur, from what i've seen, kaam is good or bad depending on intention. now i'm just waiting for a certain someone to eskplain that idea in a lil more detail. and tha's it for now. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pheena Posted December 17, 2004 Report Share Posted December 17, 2004 Pheena, why do we want to be liberated from sex? what does getting liberated from sex do if you're not attached to it in the first place? and if love can be expressed through sex, then it seems to me that sex isn't necessarily a bad thing. what i'm having issues with is how you say that sexuality has nothing to do with love and sex. sex is a direct result of lust and arousal. so if sex is an expression of love, then that lust/arousal is also an expression of love, isn't it? furthermore, in order to have a family and make that family possible, you need to have sex and lust to get things going... you are right, If you are not attached to sex, then there is no need to be liberated from. You are already liberated from it, because it is not a requirement, a need or a desire, for it has no effect on you having or not having sex. Your inner harmony is not disturbed by having sex or not having sex. In my understanding that is beign unattached to sex. Have i said something which might have given the hint otherwise? :? I don't think sex is a bad thing, i said Sexuality is the problem. If Sex becomes your Desire, or it becomes your Want, or it becomes your Need. Sooner your thoughts will become Sexual in nature. Sexuality will be visible in your everyday life. For Sex you need a Partner. If you want to have Sex and that Partner is not Available? What then, Frustration? Anger? Those emotions signal the attachment one has with sex. The question is Why does one Desire, Want or Need Sex? Is it just the Satisfaction of the Desire to have Sex? After one has Sex what has he acheived? After Satisfying the Desire to have sex has the Desire been fullfilled? If it has been fullfilled for it to never rise again, then having Sex has become your liberation of the Desire. Then you can look at another Woman or Man without being Sexual, you can look at the Beauty of a Woman or a Man without Perversion. Satisfying the Desire, the Mind has the mind Received Satisfaction? Can the Mind receive Satisfaction? We have been having sex for countless lifetimes and yet again we stand at the same door step of the same desire. Has it been Fullfilled? I Said Love has nothing to do with Sex or Sexuailty. The quote i posted gives a good reasoning. They are just the passing manifestation. As for sex being a result of Lust and arousal. Did you read the part where i said, do you need to light your whole house on fire or just a Fireplace to keep warm. Control, Moderation. The mind is very Cunning, give it one inch and it will take a Mile unles you keep a constant watch over it. Light the fireplace and it will burn down your house. If one has the Power to Control their Sexual Prowness, then i see no reason for them to liberate themselves from it. The already are in Control of it. Can you control your sexuality. Harness the Power, Control the Desire, Tame the Mind, then all becomes you slaves at will. The question is WHO is in Control of having Sex? Are YOU or your MIND/Desire? I am not telling anyone to hate sex, or become repressive about it or to renounce it or to be in denial of its existence, or to be ashamed of it. Life is about experience, Enjoy It, Experience It, Respect It, Love it, but do not become attached to it or lose yourself in it. Know the Greater purpose of Life. Be Wise of it. Also know that Sex is not the Ultimate. Unless we are bringing Tantra into this discussion. Which is a whole new chapter. http://www.newfrontier.com/nepal/whatis.htm Not sure of the Validity of the site, but its worth a click. Tantric Theology The basic statement of Tantrism was that if the world was a reflection of the cosmic order, then people should seek enlightenment through experiencing it. Rather than pursuing asceticism, which was seen as a repudiation of the tactile, Tantrikas believed that a higher spiritual awareness could be achieved through indulgent (but controlled) sensory experience. The thought was that, if the world was an expression of divinity, then all in it must be divine, worthy to be worshipped rather than renounced. It was an apparently hedonistic creed, and its appeal must have been immense. What was common of all the other different systems of the Hindu religion was that they were all ways to achieve freedom from perpetual reincarnation. The different systems accomplished this in different ways but all, with the exception of Tantrism, shared a philosophy of rejection. Among these were Nyaya, which advocated logic and clarity of thought, and Yoga, as well as Vedanta whose practitioners raised their spirituality through meditation. Tantrism turned all of this on its head. It offered its practitioners freedom in one lifetime, not through study or meditation (at least in the lower stages), but rather through indulgence, and experiencing all that religions denied. ... Sexual intercourse was seen as a way to combine the male and female energies, which were seen as originating from the Cosmos. The manifestation of this duality are the deities Shiva (male) and Shakti (female). 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tableji Posted December 17, 2004 Report Share Posted December 17, 2004 i dnt think kaam is not just about sex.....i think its about any desire that makes u go crazy...whether it be lobh, moh...that can still be kaam...if that desire makes you crazy... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sukhi Posted December 23, 2004 Report Share Posted December 23, 2004 you got me to thinking, Pheena, by making that comment about how we've been having sex for countless lifetimes. if we've been having sex for countless lifetimes, then it's not necessarily sex that we should be focussed on. nor is lust the problem itself. the problem is desire. not just for sex, but for everything and anything in general. we suffer because we desire. (i feel so buddhist saying that.) so where does this place sex? if we stop desiring everything, then we won't be able to live a normal family life. are we supposed to control what we desire and how much we desire it? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Narsingha Posted December 23, 2004 Report Share Posted December 23, 2004 ...its about balance...and the right position (..eerm...mentally, spiritually and of course physically) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 23, 2004 Report Share Posted December 23, 2004 ...its about balance...and the right position (..eerm...mentally, spiritually and of course physically) totally agree... also we been missin you at sanatan thread my friend :wink: 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pheena Posted December 27, 2004 Report Share Posted December 27, 2004 you got me to thinking, Pheena, by making that comment about how we've been having sex for countless lifetimes. if we've been having sex for countless lifetimes, then it's not necessarily sex that we should be focussed on. nor is lust the problem itself. the problem is desire. not just for sex, but for everything and anything in general. we suffer because we desire. (i feel so buddhist saying that.) so where does this place sex? if we stop desiring everything, then we won't be able to live a normal family life. are we supposed to control what we desire and how much we desire it? Narsinga said it best, Moderate, Balance yourself mentally, spiritually and physically. You are absolutly correct that it is desire that is the problem, not sex. Discarding all idea of separateness Nanak says there is no need to renounce or run away from the world. Wherever you are, He is. Nanak has given birth to a unique religion in which householder and sannyasin are one. He alone is entitled to call himself a Sikh who, being a householder is yet a sannyasin; who, being a sannyasin is still a householder. You cannot become a Sikh merely by growing your hair or wearing a turban. It is difficult to be a Sikh. It is easy to be a householder or to be a sannyasin, but to be a Sikh you have to be both. You have to remain in the house -- but as if you are not there, as if you are in the Himalayas. Keep running the shop, but maintain the remembrance of His name ever throbbing within; you can count your cash but take His name along with it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sukhi Posted December 28, 2004 Report Share Posted December 28, 2004 hmmm.... khaniyo tikhi, vaalo nikki... i'm startin to think that line's about to become my motto for the next lil while... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost Posted March 7, 2005 Report Share Posted March 7, 2005 I went to London Sikhi Week today and a question came up that relates very much to this thread :shock:. The panel (if they can be called that :? :roll: ) could not answer the question. :!: :evil: :arrow: the question was :idea: : are Sikhs allowed to use contraception? what do you guys think? :wink: :shock: :shock: 8) 8) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guv Posted March 8, 2005 Report Share Posted March 8, 2005 i say it's all good. what did the panel say? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sukhi Posted March 8, 2005 Report Share Posted March 8, 2005 Casper tell us what the panel said and we'll tell you what we think. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Narsingha Posted March 8, 2005 Report Share Posted March 8, 2005 I went to London Sikhi Week today and a question came up that relates very much to this thread :shock:. The panel (if they can be called that :? :roll: ) could not answer the question. :!: :evil: Who was on the panel? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost Posted March 8, 2005 Report Share Posted March 8, 2005 o sorry for the delay, i forgot where this thread was!! four person panel.. dont know who they were.. sorry i aint in the scene! 3 male, 1 female (she was the only sensible one!) the response by the crowd was an applause and massive laffin!! hehe male 2: O Waheguru! male 1: are we talking about ppl who r married or not? crowd: married to make it easier on u guys male 2: im not gona say nething jus incase someone writes in the sikh times! male 3: we had this question before male 1: (shrugs shoulders) we have? male 3: yeh, the answer is male 2 (interrupts): this isnt from baani, this is ur own opinion rite? male 3: yes my own opinion. If u have sex it is simply to have a baby ur not supposed to have fun male 2 (interrupts): waheguru ji ka khalsa waheguru ji ke fateh discussion finished. lol.. the quotes arent exact.. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beast Posted March 8, 2005 Report Share Posted March 8, 2005 If u have sex it is simply to have a baby ur not supposed to have fun yes. but use a condom when u want fun. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost Posted March 8, 2005 Report Share Posted March 8, 2005 lol 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
challenge_everything Posted March 8, 2005 Report Share Posted March 8, 2005 lol not to have fun! LOL 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
challenge_everything Posted March 8, 2005 Report Share Posted March 8, 2005 or is the singh saying that sex isnt fun unless u use a condom? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sukhi Posted March 8, 2005 Report Share Posted March 8, 2005 methinks the singh is saying that sex should be limited to procreation purposes. i think contraception is fine. there's a lot of people who think that purposely trying to kill a new life is considered paap and whatnot, but if you don't even let the gametes fuse to create a living mass, then what's the issue? besides, are you gonna tell me that a couple should get married and never have sex? what if they're young and aren't ready to have kids? does that mean they shouldn't have sex at all? but then again, i think it depends on what other people think about sex in the first place. to each his/her own. but in my opinion, there's nothing wrong with contraception. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tableji Posted March 8, 2005 Report Share Posted March 8, 2005 each his/her own , like i sed in a diff post...that applies to everyone in everything... in my opinion sex isnt only limited to procreation, it also kinda validates the relationship....as with everything, shud be in moderation..... thats the problem i guess, when discussing topics as such , ppl tend to take things to extremes.....jus because u do something , doesnt mean its gna take u away from guru.... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gupy Posted March 8, 2005 Report Share Posted March 8, 2005 WHAT A GREAT QUESTION : contraception Surely all the people tallking about reducing kaam and love without need for sex would say contraception is a pure act of sin? Does anyone know what the official stance on this issue is by various organistaions (i.e. Taksaal, AKJ, Nanaksarias, etc...), do they give one? I'd imagine in this social context it may be a issue of 'rehit' ? And one last point: isn't it the case that 'sexual desire' is what Guru warns you against, NOT SEX ITSELF??? Obviously in which case contraception is all good (it's even free these days!!! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sukhi Posted March 8, 2005 Report Share Posted March 8, 2005 i'm not sure but i think AKJ is defo anti-contraception. mebbe someone else knows fo sho...? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tableji Posted March 9, 2005 Report Share Posted March 9, 2005 i'm not sure but i think AKJ is defo anti-contraception. mebbe someone else knows fo sho...? depends on where what type of akj, not all akjs are the same...each group also contains very few individual ppl, with their own individual ideas...also alot of ppl like to say what they think is right, eventho they dnt really follow it lol... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pheena Posted March 9, 2005 Report Share Posted March 9, 2005 How about someone define the purpose of Cotnraceptives before this discussion goes further. There are 2 that i know of 1. Having Sex without the worry of getting pregnent. 2. To Regulate the Period of a Woman or reduce it in intensity Lets define the purpose or the intent of using contraception so we can better distinguish whether they can be used or not. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sukhi Posted March 9, 2005 Report Share Posted March 9, 2005 we should probably differentiate the kinds of contraception available too then. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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