Dynamic_Banda Posted February 27, 2007 Report Share Posted February 27, 2007 Who cares what someone is or what they believe.. I dont know what is right or wrong all I know is that I want to dance in the ocean of love(akaals charan) which is graced by the great and merciful kartapurakh.. Are the naamdharis trying to take over akaal takht and make all sikhs change bani and their views.. ? I dont think so, they just have their views and share them amongst themselves no oppression no forcing nothing. just their views.. lets say we all decide naamdharis shouldnt be allowed to call themselves sikhs.. now what? do we take Satguru Nanak dev ji maharaj out of their hearts?.. ahhh maybe im chatting crap again.. who knows.. Jah Rasterfari. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niranjana Posted February 28, 2007 Report Share Posted February 28, 2007 Chatanga wrote: 1. "we will end up like the hindus, with a new sect arising evry day" Please could you explain how this has not already happened within the 'mainstream' Sikh world, be it Tat Khalsa or Sanatan camps, the former have AKJ, Tapoban, AKJ-pseudo Nihangs, Taksal, Sant Samaj, GNSJJ, Singh Sabha, Nanaksar etc and the latter whilst laying claim to have '4 traditional sampradhas' who supposedly appreciate each other's sanctity, history tells a very different story (the only group that can perhaps lay legitimate claim to not doing so would be seva panthis - anyhow a discussion for another time) and again these 'sanatan' groups also overlap with the modern Sant Samaj, Taksal and Neo-Nihangs. This is, I'm sure you'll agree far from a comprehensive list...the point being that we have been in the same phase you are accusing Hindus of being part of for many years...whether or not these groups choose to identify themselves as jathas, kirantanias, sampradhas, or the one true form and real Khalsa is irrelevant...perhaps one could consider the truth behind the formation of so many groups...a good way to start is usually to consider the financial backing (which will usually explain the political backing)... 2. "Akali Nihang" Guru Gobind Singh Please could you provide some credible evidence to confirm the use of such a title with the hallowed name of our Guru. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chatanga Posted February 28, 2007 Report Share Posted February 28, 2007 My only credible is Akali Nihang Singh Panth Budha Dal oral tradition. chatanga 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybersingh Posted March 1, 2007 Report Share Posted March 1, 2007 My only credible is Akali Nihang Singh Panth Budha Dal oral tradition. chatanga very credible............... :roll: 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malwe Da Sher Posted March 1, 2007 Report Share Posted March 1, 2007 My only credible is Akali Nihang Singh Panth Budha Dal oral tradition I have never heard any Nihang Singh refer to maharaj as 'Akali Nihang' Guru Gobind Singh. Its just not something they dont know. Infact I was told off by Nihang Singhs for doing so before and the reason was this: Akali Nihang is the title given to a Singh who has a farla, you cannot give the same title as a Sikh as you give the Guru. Although maharaj may have dress in the attire worn by Nihang Singhs and lived the lifestyle that Nihang Singhs now try to live, they maintain firm distinctions between Guru and Sikh. again, I have never heard a single Nihang Singh in from any Dals in India refer to maharaj with the title Akali Nihang; I dont know why some websites do it. Then again I havent met and spoken to every nihang singh in the world about it, just some of the main ones form Buhda Dal. Niranjana a good point you make about questioning how groups were created. One thing however that I do wish to say is that the 'sanatan' view isn't the norm for nihang singhs. Whilst they do believe in 'puratan' sikhi, I feel that the general consensus of views of nihang singhs on certain issues does not always correspond to what is on www.sarbloh.info The only jathas that Nihang Singhs are very scepicle of are those formed during/after the British Raj - perhaps due to the points you mentioned. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DSG Posted March 1, 2007 Report Share Posted March 1, 2007 I knew someone who converted to namdhari , dont know the full ins and outs , but have this question , which is if the namdharis believe the Gurguddi was given to their guru , that must mean they believe siri guru nanak dev jis teachings up to sri guru gobind singh ji and sri guru grant sahib ji , as they were one joyt light) , if so why dont they take Sri Guru Gobind singh Jis amrit? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fatehsingh Posted March 1, 2007 Report Share Posted March 1, 2007 FYI Namdharis take Khande De Pahul.. observant Namdharis wear a symbolic kirpan that is tied to the Kanga under their turbans.. this is because under british rule kirpans were banned and this law was enforced the most on Namdharis thanx to the british's sarkari sikhs... a lot of non-namdharis like to say namdharis don't wear a more visible 'knife' in a gatra so they must not have taken amrit... but again these bs propagaters don't look at themselves before blabbering.. do they actually dare to say that 90% of those in their panth who claim they r amritdhari and walk around with 6'' kirpans r fake amritdharis? Since when is Amrit measured by the size of Kirpan I am not sure.. maybe I missed the memo.. It was the Namdharis that started the initiation of women with Khande De Pahul... even today at hazur sahib women r not given khande de pahul but kirpan da amrit... also in all old historical books the wives of Guru Gobind Singh are not referred to as 'Kaur' in a single one.. this was discussed by other learned people on this forum as well.. do a search.. DSG, it may not do u as much harm as u think if u just go through some Namdhari websites because clearly u know pretty much nothing about namdharis.. I don't want to say much here because I don't want to offend ppl who cannot stand to hear anything positive about any other religion than their own.. let them too live happy in their little world.. if u want to learn more pm me.. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DSG Posted March 1, 2007 Report Share Posted March 1, 2007 Hi Thanks Fatesingh , i have little knowledge about namdharis , yes i know little knowledge is very dangerous , is it true that the namdharis believe Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji , went to exile for 110 years or so and gave guru guddi to the Namdharis Satguru? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fatehsingh Posted March 1, 2007 Report Share Posted March 1, 2007 do a search for 'itihas de anlikhe pattar' or 'baba ajapal singh' on this forum or visit http://namdhari.faithweb.com/narnatak.htm sorry like I said I do not wish to offend anyone anymore than I already have.. if u want to know for ur own sake then pm me 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chatanga Posted March 1, 2007 Report Share Posted March 1, 2007 The Baba Ajapal Singh incident has been disproved before. look that up first. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fatehsingh Posted March 1, 2007 Report Share Posted March 1, 2007 chatanga can u please pm me with the information as to by whom, when and how was the 'incident' recorded and passed down in Bhai Kahn Singh's family 'disproved'? I want to know for my own knowledge sake.. I know SGPC is controlling and 'selling' the historical Gurdwara as that of a 'Nagarchi' of Guru Gobind Singh but try going and doing Darshan of the Gurdwara and interview the care-takers Many Thanks 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chatanga Posted March 2, 2007 Report Share Posted March 2, 2007 These caretakers themselvessaid that Ajapal Singh was a nagarchi but he was NOT Guru Gobind Singh in disguise. What was the likelihood that Guru Ji would live the rest of his life in disguise? What about his wives ? Did he have no compassion for them that for the rest of thier lives they would alone? What about the calling that Guru Ji gave Sikhs to live with full bana and be recognosed in 1 lakh, only to go indisguisable himself? Sant Jarnail Singh of Bhindra once stated that on parchaar he was confronted by some naamdhari singhs whoquestioned him on certain things. He stated that after dialogue they jioned the fold of Guru Panth and Guru Granth . Its been a llong time since i heard it, but i remember it cos the naamdahris said that blue colour was to be avoided. only white colour was holy. And the patra path that you talk about. tell me how long does it take to dissemble and reasssemble the angs of Guru Granth Sahib when the naamdharis used to do it. chatanga 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fatehsingh Posted March 2, 2007 Report Share Posted March 2, 2007 chatanga u did not send me anything in pm? Apparently those sevadars were on leave when my colleague who is a historian and a writer went to do Darshan and took photos.. isn't it great how Bhai Kahn Singh's 3 generations were caretakers of the Gurdwara and they didn't know what the tyar-bar-tyar singhs of today know from 'oral traditions'? LOLLLL For me personally I can careless what bhindrawala or whoever from ur panth say about Namdharis..coz we can say the same thing and not like it makes a difference in anyway.. as for pattra path, I was not present at the scene so I don't know how long it takes, but unbinding and rebinding a Granth does not take a capable person too long.. what does it has to do with this topic? u have not explained y it is ok for people in ur panth to destroy Granth Sahibs but yet disassembling and reassembling Granth Sahib by Namdharis is a crime?... get a life chatanga dude!.. it seems like again I'm being dragged into childish 'tu tu main main' debate which has gotten really old and pointless.. so I'd like to just say that I am not interested in what anyone has 'heard' from whichever source or whatever.. I am satisfied and have faith in my Guru and find no need to insult ur Guru to feel my Guru is True.. I pray to God that one day u can feel the same about ur Guru.. whoever/whatever it maybe since there seems to b vast diversity in ur panth as mr shaheediyan suggested.. The truth is not very difficult to know, depends on the Sangat you do and how rational u r.. the Guru is nehklank and his acts are beyond our tuch-budhi to comprehend... like I said in my very first post on this topic.. everyone has his beliefs that he is satisfied with.. I'm no longer interested nor do I have the time to waste on these lawyer-like debates u all like to play online... mera thora likhiya vadh karke samajna tusi ta syanay bande ho.. God Bless -Fateh Singh 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chatanga Posted March 2, 2007 Report Share Posted March 2, 2007 my point about assembling and disasembling Guru Granth sahib is that the point was made that it reduces the time to do akhand path from about 48 to several hours. So duz this take into account the time to disasemle and reassemble the Guru Granth Sahib and who is going to check that all 1430 angs are exactly back in order ? Thats gonna take some time dude!. So maybe this was how it started, but by the end , the naamdharis had began to tear the angs and do the sanskkar after the paath. Also anothe rtradition which was stopped by the naamharis was the hurling of dastaar and have thier kes all over the place in Maharaaj Hajuri. This also stopped after Sikhs confronted the naamdharis over this. Now onto kirpan. Do naamdhairs still wear kirpans on thier kangas? or in thier gatras? chatanga 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaheediyan Posted March 2, 2007 Report Share Posted March 2, 2007 Veer Fateh Singh Ji, Whatever anyone here or anywhere else says,"our" panth includes all denominations i.e. Nihangs, Udasi, Nirmallai, Adan Shaahi, Bhindraan, Bhai Randhir Singh Jathaa, Nanaksar, Rara Sahib, GNNSJ and others I can't recollect. They all believe in 1 Sat-Guru, Jadgi Jot Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji - not "Who or What ever". On a material level, individuals may hold high respect for role models who have inspired them in their path/group. The diversity I was refering to - as you well know, refers to small historical or rehit traditions, which sad to say, many get obsessed by. Vaheguru 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chatanga Posted March 20, 2007 Report Share Posted March 20, 2007 It has been lauded by namdharis that sikhi was dead , and there were no sikhs worth thier salt, until Bhai Ram Singh resurrected it. Why did Bhai Balak Singh let it die then? from the 1st guru to the 10 th guru sikhi alwyas expanded and grew, but by time of Bhai Ram Singh sikhi was dead, so what did Bhai Balak Singh do or not do to keep it from dying? Also spare a thought for all those poor SIkhs who looked upon Granth as Guru , when the actual Guru was living incognito just waiting for someone worthy enuff to be his successor. Come to think of was Baba Deep Singh, or Bhai Mani Singh, or the 5 beloved Sikhs who passed the test of Guru Gobind Singh, not worthy of gurgaddi amongst other sikhs that could have been worthy? also wearing of shastar is v. importaant as Guru Maharaaj has said in Dasam Guru Granth Sahib,but naamdharis dont wear shaastar just cos the britsh forbade them? Jehangir and Aurangzeb said only muslim can ride horse, only mulsim can wear dastar and be shastardhari and do this, and that, non muslims cant keep this and that. My beloved Guru to the beat of a nagara said we will do all of these things. What is fasle i will call false and i will fear no-one. Its fair to say that during the british years the namdhairs were under pressure not to wear arms, but what has stopped them since 1947. Why is Bhai Partap Singh afriad of giving such a call? when there has been so much debate of the contents of Aad Guru Granth Sahib, ie raagmala bhat bani etc, why cant Bhai Partap Singh clear up the issue once and for all, since he carries the jyot that Akal Parmeshwar gave to Guru Nanak Dev Ji. which passed to Guru Gobind Singh who recited the Aad Guru Granth Sahib to Bhai Mani Singh. Why is Bhai Partap Singh not equal to this task? Bhai Ram Singh was a mahaan GurSikh. But his followers have tried to make him into something he was not and has never been , just like the bandai Khalsa tried to do with Baba Banda Singh Bahadur. I have nothing but admiration and respect for Bhai Ram Singh if anyone thinks otherwise, thats up to you. But I cant respect the veil of falsehood that his supporters have created and made a mockery of the Guru Granth and Guru Panth. chatanga 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaheediyan Posted March 20, 2007 Report Share Posted March 20, 2007 Chatanga ji, With all due respect, idiots like AK47 are doing 100 times more damage to the panth than what you think Namdharis are doing. Should accept that in all faiths of the world, divisions occur. I do not choose whether or not to befriend a Muslim depending on whether he is a sunni or shia'te, or whether Tibetan Buddists are right or Zen Buddists are right etc. Look at people as individuals. You are giving veer Fateh Singh a hard time over what? What are you going to accomplish or prove? Fateh Singh and many thousands of others have been born into their faith, which teaches them to believe in one God, jap naam and live in peace. They are innocent, why are you trying to hold them responsible for something that happened over 130 years ago? They are obviously happy in their faith, so let it be, you be happy in yours, you forget it is Vaheguru that is playing this game. Secondly at least get your facts right, Baba Partaap Singh Ji is the previous Namdhari Guru, so no point directing questions towards them. I will give you one serious suggestion, if you have questions for the Namdhari Guru, go to Bhaini Sahib, have Baba Jagjit Singh Ji's darshan and ask them these questions directly. Vaheguru 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chatanga Posted March 21, 2007 Report Share Posted March 21, 2007 Thanks for your suggestion shaheediyan, but let me clarify one thing, i have no intention of giving fateh singh a hard time. I apologise if i have said anything against him as a person. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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