Greetings from Iran!

[Guest Javanmard]

Two of these books are in Farsi and one in German

I am really sorry if they don't exist in English but at least I have given the references.

[Kam1825]

that is cool, my dad is fluent in farsi, cheers

[chatanga]

JM , can you give us a year in which the first shia type amrit sanchar hapned?

[Guest Javanmard]

It existed from the time of Imam Ali already see Henry Corbin's article entitled : A Shi'ite liturgy of the Grail.

The exact structure of the present amrit samchar is found in the futuwwah writings of pre-Safavi and early Safavi period like the Futuwwah Nameh ye Soltani. But of course they go back to traditions found already in the early hadith collections and early batini shi'a literature especially the Khatabbiyya literature.

[Beetlejuice]

Javanmard, you have provided with references to the Shia baptism ceremony. You claim, that the Amrit ceremony, has taken the idea of this particular baptism from the Shia chivalry order. Just because there are similarites between the two, how can you concludingly state that the Amrit ceremony has been taken from the Shia baptism ceremony?

[Beetlejuice]

After all, there are similarities, between the Zulus and the practices of the initiated individuals of the Amrit ceremony...

[chatanga]

and do the shias still use this ceremony?

[Guest Javanmard]

OK beetljuice , sorry to wake you up from the world of denial BUT let me give you a picture of reality.

When two unrelated people look like each other u call it similarities.

When a son looks like his father you call it heritage.

Khalsa is a Shi'a term.

The bata is the the jam e jam and the calice that Mohammad offered Ali.

The initiation ceremony uses sweetened water stirred by a dagger or a sword.

The initiate gives his head to the Imam (sir sepordan).

Certain tarighas ask the initiate to keep his hair or moustache uncut.

The kachera is always worne by the initiates and is NOT and Indian piece of clothing.

After the ceremony halva is served as prashad and it is touched with a dagger.

when the Imam is not there he is represented by the Quran or a boo of his writings.

Sounds familiar?

These are not "similiarities" this is called a derivative, influence, heritage.

And no beetlejuice just because Zulus clean their teet with datan doesn't mean their bear similarities to the Khalsa.

Wake up get real: amrit sanchar is Shi'a.

In other words you are not as special as you thought you were. Good news is: you belong to a wider network of communities ranging from Turkey to Panjab. That I think is special!

[SAadmin]

javanmard, have you seen gurdwaras in iran? if so please describe the sangat the feeling, condition of the gurdwaras. is it in good condition? have you met sikhs in iran? how are they? whats their rehni behni?

also veer , Are you refferring to the sgpc destruction of golden temple?

when you mentioned:

Unlike Amritsar the shrine is in perfect condition and any modern extention is built in the same traditional style

[Xylitol]

Amrit Sanchar came to us from Gobind in the roop of Guru Nanak Dev ji, and than later on Gobind in the roop of Guru Gobind Singh ji gave us the final form of Amrit Sanchar. It is not heritage from the Muslims. Perhaps the Shia also received their initiation ceremony from Waheguru, which would explain the similarity.

[SAadmin]

Amrit Sanchar came to us from Gobind in the roop of Guru Nanak Dev ji, and than later on Gobind in the roop of Guru Gobind Singh ji gave us the final form of Amrit Sanchar. It is not heritage from the Muslims. Perhaps the Shia also received their initiation ceremony from Waheguru, which would explain the similarity

good post bro !

[Mehtab Singh]

I am neither a scholar on Islam (whichever branch it is) or Sikhi (whichever type you might want to call it as). As per my limited knowledge, the Khalsa is never to hide his/her identity even if faced with death, whereas I've had Muslims (in fact Shias) tell me about al Taqiya as per which they are allowed to conceal their identity to save their lives. The very concept of becoming a Khalsa is to stand out and never hide, whereas al Taqiya is supportive of hiding. Does the "Shia version" of Amrit Sanchar have any such clause where some sort of reference is made to concealing your identity?

I am only asking a question as the above few posts are pretty interesting.

[Mehtab Singh]

Another question...

If the Khalsa, as you suggest, is some sort of derivative or continuation of Shia Islam, how do you explain the following from Sri Dasam Granth:

ਮਹਾਦੀਨ ਤਬ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਉਪਰਾਜਾ ॥ ਅਰਬ ਦੇਸ ਕੋ ਕੀਨੋ ਰਾਜਾ ॥੨੬॥

महादीन तब प्रभ उपराजा ॥ अरब देस को कीनो राजा ॥२६॥

Then I created Muhammed, who was made the master of Arabia.26.

ਤਿਨ ਭੀ ਏਕ ਪੰਥ ਉਪਰਾਜਾ ॥ ਲਿੰਗ ਬਿਨਾ ਕੀਨੇ ਸਭ ਰਾਜਾ ॥

तिन भी एक पंथ उपराजा ॥ लिंग बिना कीने सभ राजा ॥

He started a religion and circumcised all the kings.

ਸਭ ਤੇ ਅਪਨਾ ਨਾਮੁ ਜਪਾਯੋ ॥ ਸਤਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਕਾਹੂੰ ਨ ਦ੍ਰਿੜਾਯੋ ॥੨੭॥

सभ ते अपना नामु जपायो ॥ सति नामु काहूं न द्रिड़ायो ॥२७॥

He caused all to utter his name and did not give True Name of the Lord with firmness to anyone.27.

- pages 135-136

ਮਹਾਦੀਨ ਕੇਤੇ ਪ੍ਰਿਥੀ ਮਾਂਝ ਹੂਏ ॥ ਸਮੈ ਆਪਨੀ ਆਪਨੀ ਅੰਤ ਮੂਏ ॥੨੭॥

महादीन केते प्रिथी मांझ हूए ॥ समै आपनी आपनी अंत मूए ॥२७॥

Many Muhammads had been on the earth. They were born and then died in their own times. 27.

-page 99

ਕਈ ਕੋਟ ਇੰਦ੍ਰ ਜਿਹ ਪਾਨਹਾਰ ॥ ਕਈ ਚੰਦ ਸੂਰ ਕ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਨਾਵਤਾਰ ॥ ਕਈ ਬਿਸ਼ਨ ਰੁਦ੍ਰ ਰਾਮਾ ਰਸੂਲ ॥ ਬਿਨ ਭਗਤਿ ਯੌ ਨ ਕੋਈ ਕਬੂਲ ॥੯੫॥

कई कोट इंद्र जिह पानहार ॥ कई चंद सूर क्रिशनावतार ॥ कई बिशन रुद्र रामा रसूल ॥ बिन भगति यौ न कोई कबूल ॥९५॥

Millions of Indras, Chandras, Suryas and Krishans serve Him; many Vishnus, Rudras, Rams, Muhammadas etc. mediate on Him, but He accepts none without true devotion.95.

- page 1237

ਰਾਮ ਰਸੂਲ ਕਿਸ਼ਨ ਬਿਸ਼ਨਾਦਿਕ ਕਾਲ ਕ੍ਰਵਾਲਹਿ ਕੂਟੇ ॥ ਕੋਟ ਉਪਾਇ ਧਾਇ ਸਭ ਥਾਕੇ ਬਿਨ ਤਿਹ ਭਜਨ ਨ ਛੂਟੇ ॥੫॥੭੯॥

राम रसूल किशन बिशनादिक काल क्रवालहि कूटे ॥ कोट उपाइ धाइ सभ थाके बिन तिह भजन न छूटे ॥५॥७९॥

Ram, Muhammad, Krishna, Vishnu etc., All were destroyed by this sword of KAL; crores of measures, but without the devotion of One Lord, no one achieved redemption.5.79.

-page 1289

I am not at all well versed in the Dasam Granth, but how do you translate Mahadeen and/or Rasool? Isn't it referring to Hazrat Muhammad Sahib? Also, according to Bachitter Natak, again from my limited knowledge, Sahib Sri Guru Gobind Singh Jee was sent to start what the avtars before Him couldn't establish. So the "continuation" or "derivation" of the Khalsa from Shia Islam again raises a question.

Could you please elaborate? Thanks

[Matheen]

Without Gurbani, Amrit is just sweet water.....The initiation may be similar but what about the Gurbani, Rehat etc.

Also, there are HUGE differences between Sikhi and all variations of Islam e.g. the sanctity of Kesh in Sikhi - Muslims shave their moustaches and around the groin, the whole body when going on Haaj (whether Shia or Sunni);

Marriage to cousins is taboo in Sikhi but common amongst Shias (if you've studied basic genetics, you know how foolish this is);

Temporary marriages are allowed for Shias;

Their view of Sachkhand....;

Sunat (circumcision);

etc etc.

The point is that Sikhi is distinct from Shiaism. Of course there will be similarities - There is only 1 God after all - but Sikhi is distinct.

My 2cents worth

[amardeep]

Mehtab Singh:

Javanmard has already cleared the confusion on Mahadin several times on sikhareness:

Bachitar Natak & Mentioning Of Mohmaad(PBUH)

http://www.sikhawareness.com/sikhawareness...ghlight=mahadin

Trend of linkin all the bhagats as follower of Guru Nanak ji

http://www.sikhawareness.com/sikhawareness...29&start=15

Hmm...proof that Gurus questioned the Koran for women?

http://www.sikhawareness.com/sikhawareness...in&start=15

etc

[Mehtab Singh]

Very good read. Thanks.

ਕਈ ਕੋਟ ਇੰਦ੍ਰ ਜਿਹ ਪਾਨਹਾਰ ॥ ਕਈ ਚੰਦ ਸੂਰ ਕ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਨਾਵਤਾਰ ॥ ਕਈ ਬਿਸ਼ਨ ਰੁਦ੍ਰ ਰਾਮਾ ਰਸੂਲ ॥ ਬਿਨ ਭਗਤਿ ਯੌ ਨ ਕੋਈ ਕਬੂਲ ॥੯੫॥

कई कोट इंद्र जिह पानहार ॥ कई चंद सूर क्रिशनावतार ॥ कई बिशन रुद्र रामा रसूल ॥ बिन भगति यौ न कोई कबूल ॥९५॥

Millions of Indras, Chandras, Suryas and Krishans serve Him; many Vishnus, Rudras, Rams, Muhammadas etc. mediate on Him, but He accepts none without true devotion.95.

- page 1237

ਰਾਮ ਰਸੂਲ ਕਿਸ਼ਨ ਬਿਸ਼ਨਾਦਿਕ ਕਾਲ ਕ੍ਰਵਾਲਹਿ ਕੂਟੇ ॥ ਕੋਟ ਉਪਾਇ ਧਾਇ ਸਭ ਥਾਕੇ ਬਿਨ ਤਿਹ ਭਜਨ ਨ ਛੂਟੇ ॥੫॥੭੯॥

राम रसूल किशन बिशनादिक काल क्रवालहि कूटे ॥ कोट उपाइ धाइ सभ थाके बिन तिह भजन न छूटे ॥५॥७९॥

Ram, Muhammad, Krishna, Vishnu etc., All were destroyed by this sword of KAL; crores of measures, but without the devotion of One Lord, no one achieved redemption.5.79.

-page 1289

These quotes however still mention "Rasool" which refers to Hazrat Muhammad Sahib, right?

So the question stays. If Sahib Sri Guru Gobind Singh Jee says that "Rasool" didn't get redeemed, is it proper to compare a religion started by "Rasool" to the one completed by Sahib Sri Guru Gobind Singh Jee Maharaj? Don't get me wrong, I do not intend to show even an iota of disrespect to any prophet, just curious as you guys definitely know a lot more than me.

[amardeep]

im not a scholar on Gurbani, but i dont think that those hymns are written as an attack on those avatars mentioned.. It sounds more like it is talking about the Worship of one God, and then saying that all of these prophets and avatars eventually died, so they are not worthy of Worship, and as to the part of "but without the devotion of One Lord, no one achieved redemption" it is maybe saying that just by being a follower of some religion, you do not gain redemption, because even thought Rasol, Krishna, Vishnu were among the highest of the high, even they had to worship the One God..

so the hymns i would say are rather talkin about true active worship, than passive worship where one says "Well since im already hindu, sikh, muslim i dont have to lift a finger".

thats the way i see it

[Mehtab Singh]

im not a scholar on Gurbani, but i dont think that those hymns are written as an attack on those avatars mentioned.. It sounds more like it is talking about the Worship of one God, and then saying that all of these prophets and avatars eventually died, so they are not worthy of Worship, and as to the part of "but without the devotion of One Lord, no one achieved redemption" it is maybe saying that just by being a follower of some religion, you do not gain redemption, because even thought Rasol, Krishna, Vishnu were among the highest of the high, even they had to worship the One God..

so the hymns i would say are rather talkin about true active worship, than passive worship where one says "Well since im already hindu, sikh, muslim i dont have to lift a finger".

thats the way i see it

good point

[Guest Javanmard]

Ah as usual the same tactics of denial. hihihi

And yet again the same old Mahadi verse. Guys please find another verse it's getting boring.

Mahadin is NOT the Prophet and you know why?

1. Mahadin is neither an arabic word nor a name of the Prophet. Surely Guru Gobind Singh who was a scholar of Farsi and Arabic could have used real titles such as Ahmad or Mustafa.

2. Mohammad didn't impose circumcision in Arabia it was already practised by people before Islam and Arab Christians and Jews practised it.

3. Mohammad never fought against any king nor did he convert any king.

So you have two solutions either the author of this verse was a complete and utter donkey given the fact that none of the facts in that verse are true OR Guru Gobind Singh wrote this verse as an allegorical verse.

Again this is the 169th time people present me this verse as a lame excuse and it's getting boring.

Matheen could you please stop talking about Islam because sorry you are completely ignorant of it. Yes shariati Muslims trimm their moustaches BUT many dervishes, many Sufis and especially the Ahl e Haqq keep their moustache and even their kesh so your point is void.

Ah the same old marriage among cousins bullshit argument. Trust me most Iranians don't do it. Just because Pakistanis do it doesn't mean it's an Islamic thing. And btw there are Khatri Sikhs who marry their cousins so please get your facts right.Pakistanis in my opinion should not even be called Muslims to be honest. The Safavis should have invaded and made slaves out of them. They are a shame for anything related to Islam. Compare Iranian Shia's and Pakistani Shi'as and you'll see what I mean...In fact Iranians prefer to visit India rather than Pakistan and there is a reason for it...

Mehtab Singh taqqiya is practised in many ways but many groups within Shi'ism such as the Ahl e Haqq show clearly who they are. A Ahl e Haqq will NEVER cut his moustache and their dervishes would rather die than cut their kesh so your taqiyya argument doesn't count.Many Ahl e Haqq died at the hands of Mullahs and attained shahidi because they refused to cut their kesh so please try another excuse.

Xylitol yes of course it's Vahiguru who started the amrit ceremony as Imam Ali and then it was passed down to Guru Nanak and Guru Gobind Singh. 8)

I haven't visited the gurdware and I am not interested. I met members of the Tehrani Sikh community and to be honest they are just the same asd the other SGPC types. Most of them never heard of Bhai Nand Lal and are not interested in getting their kids to study Persian music to play the poetry of Bhai Nand Lal. The same materialistic types I have met in India and the UK. I wonder what they're doing in such a cultured country like Iran.

[chatanga]

JM, why did the mullahs try to force haircut on th ahl-hagg, and what duz this term mean as well?

[Guest Javanmard]

Ahl e Haqq means People of the Truth or Satpanthis. The mullahs in general used to hate mysticism and the Ahl e Haqq are mystics. But now thanks to Allamah Tabatabai and Khomeini they are more open to mysticism because Tabatabai and Khomeini studied and defended erfan and defended mysticism. But every now and then some idiot mullahs try to ban mysticism and music but then again it's a lost battle. Iranians can't live without Hafez and mystical music.

[Beetlejuice]

Which orders keep their hair and for what reasons Javanmard?

[chatanga]

and is mystsicism and iranian music an underground thing? are the relgious police oredered to arest anyone who is a mystic or plays music?

[Guest Javanmard]

The police are fine, even the pasdaran it's the paramilitary who are a problem. They can't arrest people just like that but they invent some reason to arrest people but that's just in cities like Qom or Mashad where they have a strong power base. In Tehran they keep a low profile. Power is very complex in Iran. It's not like there is an anti mystic conspiracy. Let's just say that hardcore members of the government are like that. They are a few but they are strong.

[chatanga]

i would have thought that the support of Khomeini would have meant that the others would support it as well, or at the very least , not go against it.

and are you gonna bring us sum pics back as well?