Mata Sahib Kaur Not The Giver Of Pataseh!

[Kam1825]

Now i have not even thought about this topic before but one thing Javanmard i must remid you of the respect the Sikhs have for that of Mata Sahib Kaur is equivalent to theat of other feminine divens in history such as Lady Fatimah and Miriam.

Can people put the quotes from differnt sources which do and do not suggest that Mata Sahib Devi was around at the time of the creation of the khalsa

[Guest Javanmard]

Guys!!! Think mathematics!!! If Mata Sahib Devan got married to Maharaj after 1699 logically she was not there for the amrit samskar. Pure logic.

[Kam1825]

that is fine i was not aware of that at all. Again can someone please give details of historical scriptures which states mata sahib devi was at the ceremony and which say they were not

[Niranjana]

kam, you asked:

“Can people put the quotes from differnt sources which do and do not suggest that Mata Sahib Devi was around at the time of the creation of the khalsaâ€

I will reiterate and suggest the people try reading the text highlighted earlier - Sri Guru Sobha by Kavi Sainapati - this is, IMHO, one of the most reliable texts on Sikh history, however one of the most frequently ignored, particularly by modern day groups who like to dwell on Bhangoos Panth Prakash, which is, to frankly call a spade a spade, little more than Jatt propaganda. It also may well be regarded as the Nihang bible, however it is plain to see why given that it provides means to justify many of their supposed traditions and habits, strangely enough never found in any previous texts!

As per your following comment:

“i must remid you of the respect the Sikhs have for that of Mata Sahib Kaur is equivalent to theat of other feminine divens in history such as Lady Fatimah and Miriamâ€

Again, as highlighted above, it is not Mata Sahib Kaur, but Mata Sahib Devi, this insertion of Kaur is purely revisionism which has been discussed at length elsewhere on this forum (from what I recall some 2 – 3 years ago).

Likewise, the placing of Mata Jee on the same level as Lady Fatimah or Miriam is a more recent trend found amongst certain groups as a form of pseudo-feminism in an attempt to highlight contributions of Sikh women and uncannily one used to divert the inherent trend during the 18th and 19th centuries to parallel Mata Sahib with the Devi Durga, wherein certain segments of the Sikh populace under the influence of authors like Bhangoo chose to ape other tribal customs of those they regarded as warriors, namely the Rajputs and adopted a whole host of habits which were equally revisionist in view of the political climate at that time.

What I find particularly interesting is that all of these revisionist attempts fail to highlight more apparent issues such as Mata Jee correctly being regarded as the Mother of the Khalsa (whether she was there placing patashas or not has no bearing on her position as our Mother, which she undoubtedly is) however she was never in any armed combat and never went to battle, which is something that is overtly ignored when it comes to discussing Sikh women in the pathetic bid to control them through the enforcement of rigid dress codes and other means under the guise of ‘equality’ as part of the pseudo-feminist stance that supporters of such thought use as a means of justification.

Similarly, the roles of Mata Kivi Jee are frequently under represented, however the rise in popularity of Mai Bhago as the one defining role model of Sikh women is unsurprisingly one which is closely linked to more modern politically motivated agendas.

The same is also true of many modern Sikh heroes who have only risen to popularity in modern times, including some large household names, such as Baba Deep Singh, who when one scans historical texts is not someone mentioned as frequently as say, Bhai Sukha Singh or Mehtab Singh for instance.

Again, none of this lessens the contribution or respect one has for say Baba Deep Singh or Mai Bhago, however it appears only natural that with the passage of time, that certain aspects, figures, doctrines etc will be emphasised more than others, however the role of ‘silent evidence’ and ‘hindsight bias’ is something that historians and all of us need to consider in our assessments.

For the record, the above are only my current observations and by no means intended to be authoritative/final in any way, just items for discussion and/or thought, bottom line is as outlined at outset, differences found in texts do not invalidate the concept or practice of the Amrit Sanchar nor does the discrepancies on Mata Jee’s presence in any way lessen respect for her as our mother.

Regards,

Niranjana.

[shaheediyan]

Ok, if Mata Sahib was not at the 1st Amrit Sanchaar:

1 - Could it be that the adding patisa occured after her marriage to Guru Ji, in a subsequent sanchaar?

2 - Could it be that the theory that Guru Gobind Singh Ji did not in fact marry Mata Sahiba - or that she was kept as a virgin bride with the promise of having a whole nation as her children (which holds true)?

3 - If married to Guru Ji, why was Mata Ji chosen over Mata Sundri/Jito to become the mother of the Khalsa?

I am not stating an opinion here, just opening up the discussion.

Vaheguru

[Kam1825]

Niranjana if you listen to the tapes of the Sarbloh Granth Katha by Baba Santa Singh Nihang he states that Mata Sahib Devi is the Jagat Mata who is also referred to as Jagdamba, Durga, Amba, Chandi, etc

Is this not the view of the nihangs.

I dont have Kavi Sainapati Sri Gur Sobha. Any chance somebody can post/scan the relevant pages to the creation of the khalsa

[amardeep]

Kirpa Kari hum par Jagmata- Chaupei Sahib <- is this reffering to Mata Sahib Deevan according to Baba Santa Singh NIhang

[Niranjana]

Kam,

I have heard the referenced katha on several occasions, this view that Akali Nihang Baba Santa Singh 96 Crore is reiterating can find its roots in the 18th and 19th Sikh historical texts such as the Sau Sakhi.

The rationale by supporters of such notions is that Guru Gobind Singh was Rishi Dhust Daman in his past life and aided by the Devi helped protect Guru Tegh Bahadur who was Samund Rishi in his past life wherein the Devi swore to protect and aid him in Kulyug when Dhust Daman would return as Guru Gobind Singh.

As a side note, this 'story' is often quoted by anti-Dasam Granth authors even though it doesn't appear in the Dasam Granth!

Back to the point, one question which comes to mind is why would Guru Sahib marry the Devi if this story is true and he earned a boon from her in a past life, surely the outcome would have been to do puja of the Devi, moreover how does this then correlate to the supposed conjuring up of the Devi at Naina Devi mountain in the famous episode with the Brahmins, next comes why would Guru Sahib write the various Chandi Banis found in the Sri Dasam Granth Sahib - as a ode to his wife??? Likewise with the question raised by amardeep above.

Reality is that this account has several holes in it before we even analyse it any further, the notion of Mata Sahib Devi being elevated to the status of Devi Durga or more recently the Virgin Mary (believe it or not, some even try to argue for the virgin births of the Gurus and their children) or Lady Fahtima are simply innovations prompted by other agendas.

[chatanga]

ive never heard of Mata Sahib Kaur/Devi being refered to as Durga. nor in the katha i have by Baba Santa Singh.

And didnt Durga say she would appear in Kaljug as a sword, according to Sau Sakhi? This is the same "devi " that Guru Ji produced at the mountain, is it not?

[Niranjana]

Chatanga, Akali Nihang Baba Santa Singh 96 Crore Jathedar Buddha Dal, Punjab, Hindustan categorically states words to the effect "we have our father Maha Kaal, Guru Gobind Singh and mother, Adi Shakti, Mata Sahib Devi".

I'm sure even reading that statement the obvious problems with such an assertion are apparent to anyone who is even vaguely familiar with the bani of the Sri Dasam Granth Sahib, namely the Bachittar Natak.

[Kam1825]

cheers for the reply niranjana, very informative

[Kharag Singh]

to this day our perception of Mata Ji has been of a STRONG woman who contributed and made the Amrit ceremony complete by adding pataseh. If she didnt do this then what is the real story of vaisakhi 1699?

And these texts which mention this arent so readily available in the UK, so if anyone could do the seva of providing the quotes will be much appreciated.

This "story" is one of Sikhisms most fundamental events, the truth must be known!

[navjot2]

no one is providing any facts. peoples mere speculation is no use to anyone. people should stop crowding this discussion with mere opinions, be they their own or others.

[Xylitol]

just wanted to point out, that whether or not mata sahib kaur ji was married to the Guru at the time of the Amrit Sanchar, she could still have contributed to it. the lack of marriage at that time is not evidence of any sort whatsoever imo.

this is an interesting topic so far

[singho]

confusing

[Guest Javanmard]

just wanted to point out, that whether or not mata sahib kaur ji was married to the Guru at the time of the Amrit Sanchar, she could still have contributed to it. the lack of marriage at that time is not evidence of any sort whatsoever imo.

this is an interesting topic so far

It is very clear that Mata Sahib Devan was NOT there when the amrit sanchar took place.

1. She was shortly introduced to her future husband just before she got married.

2. One fails to see what a girl unknown to Maharaj's family circle would be doing there bringing patase.

Mata Sahib Devan's presence there is a later version of the event. The oldest rahitname do NOT mention her presence at the event.

[fatehsingh]

Some facts for those who need them:

After 1708 Mata Sundariji, the second wife of Guru Gobind Singh became the official leader of Dal Khalsa. She was the one approached by Farukhsyar badshah to control Banda Bahadur. It was during this time that 'Nihangs'/'Tat Khalsa' as a panth first took birth - historically speaking - from Dal Khalsa.

Mata Sahib Deva became the next successor of Tat Khalsa afer Mata Sundriji passed away.

Mata Jeetoji had passed away very soon after 1699, even before the battle of Chamkaur.

It could be either Mata Jeetoji or Sundriji who put Patasas in Amrit. My personal view is it was Mata Jeetoji from both her high spiritual values and also being the first Mahel of Guruji.

source: old & new Panth Parkash, Rattan Singh Bhangoo + Gyani Gyan Singh

[drawrof]

Thanks to everyone who has contributed here, especially fatehsingh and javanmard. Getting down to the root of things is always better than to sit there in la la land, and I'd rather be in support of actual or probable facts as opposed to 'generic' stuff....further, something interesting....we have all grown to understand or accept 1699 as being very significant, but what if...just what if...it really wasn't???

[shaheediyan]

The date is unimportant, the event - the creation of the Khalsa panth, baptism of the sword, love of the Panj Pyare, humility of the Guru -always has been and will be the lasting legacy of the Supreme King - Sri Guru Gobind Singh Sahib Ji.

[Guest Javanmard]

What on earth does it matter anyway? That initiation ritual has always been done with either salted or sweetened water before 1699. So it's not like the patase were a sort of new groundbreaking invention and who put the patase is to be honest even less relevant.

[Niranjana]

Kam,

As mentioned, please try and look up references for Sri Gur Sobha, Panth Parkash (Bhangoo’s version is available in UK libraries) and the rehitnamas (these are available in English on allaboutsikhs.com as well as books by McLeod and others). The search function on this website should also yield some quotes for you.

I attach below an article discussing the wider issue of discrepancies in accounts of Vaisakhi and the Khalsa Panth taken fro the sikh review which I trust will be helpful.

Regards,

Niranjana.

www.sikhreview.org/march2001/chronicle.htm

Creation of Khalsa as described by

Bhatt Sarup Singh Kaushish

in "Guru Kian Sakhian"

[Part II]@

Harnam Singh Shan, D.Litt.*

* Eminent scholar, former Prof. & Chair, Guru Nanak Studies, Punjab University, Chandigarh.

[605, Sector 16 Chandigarh, 160015, Punjab]

Parchian Sewa Das, dated 1708 A.D. is probably the earliest available narration, in prose, of some episodes from the life of Guru Gobind Singh. Its date of completion coincides with the date of the passing away of Guru Sahib and it seems to have been written at Nander itself. Thirty- eight of the fifty episodes (Nos. 13 to 50) contained in the work pertain to Guru Gobind Singh, but none of them describes the event as such in any form. There is, however, a passing but significant reference to it in the very first episode which after giving "a brief sample" of the Zafarnamah1 is concluded as follows:

"The letter contained the warning, ‘Beware, the Khalsa is born, the real idol-breaker Khalsa. Khalsa will punish you. You will not be spared."

"The name of the messenger who took this letter was Bhai Daya Singh. When Aurangzeb read this line of the letter, he looked at Bhai Daya Singh and asked, ‘Has the Khalsa taken birth’? ‘Yes, Sir, the Khalsa has appeared,’ replied Bhai Daya Singh. ‘It should not have appeared15. That is a novel nectar to be prepared with the use of a double at this time. I see doom ahead.’ Saying this, Aurangzeb’s face turned pale, and he died." 19

Its episode No. 47 refers to a violation of Rehat, the Code of Socio-religious Conduct and discipline prescribed for the Khalsa, at Dadu Dwara - Guru’s salutation, Khalsa’s notice, Guru’s explanation and acceptance of the tankhah20 awarded by the Khalsa.21

The abolition of the Masand System and the removal of all masands is intrinsically linked with the creation of the Khalsa, that being its primary connotation. It was one of the first injunctions of the Guru and the Sikhs were told not to have any truck with them. This is corroborated even by the extant Hukamnamas22 sant by Guru Gobind Singh to various Sikh Sangats - the first of them being the one dated 12 March 1699 (that is, 19 days earlier than the event) addressed to the Sangat of Machhiwara23 (district Ludhiana). Chander Sen Sainapat, an eminent scholarly poet of the Guru’s Court, also confirms it by stating in his Sri Gur Sobha (completed in 1711) that by abrogating their institution, doing away with their mediacy and making all Sikhs his own Khalsa, the Guru affiliated and related the entire Sikh community directly with himself.

Karan har Kartar hukum karte kiya kar masand sabh dur, khalsa kar liya24

He actually transformed it into his Khalsa, so said Bhai Gurdas Singh, another contemporary, most probably an eye-witness to the event:

Gur-Sangat kini Khalsa

Manmukhi duhela25

It was, therefore, quite right and appropriate on the part of Sarup Singh Kaushish to begin his account of that historic event with the condemnation, dismissal and summary punishment of the depraved masands.

Immediately after mentioning the above command of Guru Gobind Singh, Kaushish begins his narration of the event telling as under the date of its occurrence:

Charhde saal satrah seh pachawan baisakhi26

This is what we find neither in the Parchian of Sewa Das nor in Sri Gur Sobha of Sainapat. This is what is very wrongly given by Koer Singh in his Gurbilas Patshahi 10, completed in 1751 and so far the earliest available account of the same, commencing his narration in the relevant canto no. 9, as follows:

Yah bidhi panth banai hai27

He has mentioned it twice and both times 1746 BK.,28 corresponding to 1689 A.D., instead of 1699 A.D. universally accepted till now.

Sainapat began the writing of his work, Sri Gur Sobha, in 1701 - two years or so after the creation of the Khalsa in 1699. He completed it in 1711, within three years of the demise of Guru Gobind Singh. Having been an eminent poet of his court, both at Paonta Sahib and Anandpur Sahib, he would have been an eye-witness to all that happened on 30 March 1699 at Anandpur. But in spite of its being a contemporary historical significance and poetical excellence, it is quite silent over almost all those aspects and incidents of the event which have been noticed in the above narration of Guru Kian Sakhian and which are generally known to the people uptil now. He has referred, though, to the huge gathering on the occasion of Vaisakhi at Anandpur, without mentioning even its year, yet there is no explicit reference in it even to the thundering call for heads made by the Guru in that assemblage and what followed thereafter. He seems to have taken it for granted that unique and memorable event and the details associated with it were already known to his readers. Hence, he does not seem to have considered it necessary or useful to describe the same.

Sainapat’s Sri Gur Sobha is followed by Koer Singh’s Gurbilas which is also a versified account of the life of Guru Gobind Singh, and is probably the first available work that covers in detail almost the entire span of his life, completed within 43 years of his passing away. As hinted above, it is also the so-far-first available work in which are recorded some details of the event that led to the creation of the Khalsa. But its narration falls short not only in telling us a wrong and misleading date of its occurrence but also in several other elements and aspects of the subject. Unlike that of Sainapat and Kaushish, Koer Singh’s account is doctrinally heterodox in its nature, content and presentation. It runs counter to the tenets, teachings and writings of Guru Gobind Singh. Quite contrary to the glaring facts of history, most of these are figments of Koer Singh’s poetic fancy, leading not only to heterodoxy but also to heresy. Hence, there is very little of historical, factual and, therefore, credible element in his account.29

According to Koer Singh, the first Piara, Bhai Daya Ram, belonged to Lahore, but Bawa Sarup Das Bhalla, author of the Mehma Parkash (dated 1776), and Sarup Singh Kaushish have mentioned him as a resident of Sialkot or Shalkot, respectively. 30 He was a Sopat or Softi (not Sobti, as it is now pronounced) Khatri, according to all of them.

The next work, in chronological order, is Bansavalinama Dasan Patshahian Ka by Bhai Kesar Singh Chhibbar. He completed this poeticized work in 1769. There is no mention in it of the Sis-bhet episode nor of the very bold and spectacular method adopted by Guru Gobind Singh to select his Panj Piare (five Beloved ones).31 According to him, Guru Gobind Singh planned to create the Khalsa when the year 1750 Bk. (1693 A.D.) came to its end:

Sambat satara sai pachas pura hoya31

The last such work, that is Mehma Parkash, dated 1776, by Bawa Sarup Das Bhalla, seems to have followed Koer Singh’s Gurbilas in repeating the same heterodoxical element.32 Its account is not only insignificant but is also incredible to a very large extent.

On the other side, Bhai Sarup Singh Kaushish who wrote the above account of that great event 14 years after Bhalla, 21 years after Chhibbar and 39 years after Koer Singh, had steered clear of all such flights of poetical imagination, Brahmanical influences and heretical overtones. He seems to have followed only the first-hand information he found recorded in the Bhatt Vahis of his ancestors who remained in attendance with Sri Guru Gobind Singh and happened to be eye-witness to most of the events associated with his court and camp till he passed away.33

Basing his account on such an authentic and reliable contemporary source, Kaushish related the first "baptismal" ceremony, held at Keshgarh Sahib on the Vaisakhi Day (30 March) of 1699, in the next Sakhi, bearing no. 59, as follows:

That is, "now begins the anecdote regarding initiation with ambrosial baptism by the nectar of the double-edged broadsword."

"Guru ji asked Diwan Dharam Chand to bring a stone mortar, a steel bowl and the double-edged broadsword. Obeying the command, Diwan ji brought in the same.

"Placing the bowl on the stone mortar and putting in it the water of river Sutluj, Guru ji started the preparation of his ambrosial nectar. He began to stir the Khanda in it with his hand in front of the five Sikhs - Bhai Daya Ram and others. He recited at first Japji Sahib.

"The revered mother asked Bhai Kirpa Ram, ‘What Guru ji is doing?’ He said, ‘Revered mother’, Guru ji is preparing ambrosial nectar of the double-edged broadsword for administering it to the Sikhs.’ The revered mother was deeply moved on hearing this. She instantly came to Guru’s presence with a lawful of patasas. Paying at first her obeisance to Guru ji, she poured the patasas from her lap into that bowl. The all-knowing Guru ji did not look at her and continued with his recitation of Jap ji with full concentration. After reciting the sacred compositions of Jap ji, Jaap Sahib, Sawayyas and Chaupai, he recited Anand Sahib. When the ambrosial elixir became ready, he stood up and performed the Ardas. Concluding it with the prayer; he called out Fateh, and raised aloud the spirited chant of Sat Sri Akal.

"The True Guru, then, dripped the ambrosial nectar five times, from the edge of the Khanda into his own mouth, repeating each time the Fateh, salutation of God’s victory.

"The True Guru, thereafter, holding the Khanda in his right hand, said, ‘This broadsword with the stirring of which I am going to give you the ambrosial nectar of steel, was endowed to me by the Immanent and Eternal Being (God) on His calling me from the mountain of Hemkunt. Keep it (its replica) under your short turban. With its blessing you will gain victory in every field of activity.’

"After this, he uttered the following three couplets38 in a roaring voice:

You are the Timeless

You are the goddess of death;

You are the arrow.

You are the symbol of victory.

You are the Almighty Hero of the world.38

"After uttering the above couplets, he looked towards the Five, Daya Ram and others, who were standing in front and watching with fixed gaze the bowl of nectar. Making them sit in the bir-asan, he administered to each, by turns, that ambrosial nectar of the broadsword. Then, starting at first from Bhai Daya Ram and going up to Bhai Himmat Chand, he made them drink three sips each of whatever nectar was left over in the bowl. Returning them from Bhai Himmat Rai and proceeding towards Bhai Daya Ram, he finished the nectar by letting them take two more sips each.

"Assigning the word Singh first to his own name and thence to the names of all the Five Chosen Sikhs, Guru ji called out Fateh (the victory salutation) and raised aloud the spirited chant of Sat Sri Akal.

"Thereafter, Guru ji pronounced, ‘on your rebirth in the Khalsa Panth, your previous lineage, caste, creed, calling, customs, beliefs and superstitions, etc. stand annulled from now onwards. Transforming you into the Order of Khalsa, I have endowed you with the apparel of the Almighty God, you shall have to keep its honour. Before administering this nectar of steel, I also bestowed you with five kakaars (Ks, i.e. defining emblems). You have never to keep them away from your body even by mistake. I gave you, at the start, a blue keski, kangha, kirpan, sarbloh ka kara and white kachhehra. In the event of the loss or misplacement of any of these, get its infringement pardoned in the Sangat by going to Gurdwara without any delay.

"Now listen to the following four bajjar kurehats (negative injunctions or transgressions) by the commission of any of them a Sikh becomes an apostate and cannot intermingle with the Sikh sangat. The first is the dishonouring of one’s rom (hair) from top to be. The next are eating of kutha, using of tobacco and cohabiting with a Muslim woman. In the event of the infringement of any one of these, you must get yourself pardoned by having yourself re-baptized with the nectar of the broadsword. Do not cherish any relation or communication with the five antagonists of the Panth, that is, the descendants and followers of Prithi Chand, Dhir Mal, Ram Rai, masands and the shaven. Whosoever from any of them shall come to the Sangat and shall present himself for forgiveness for his omissions or commissions, he should be forgiven without any suspicion or hesitation. You shall not fix your faith, even by mistake, in any monastery, crematory, tomb or grave, excepting in God, the only One Timeless Being. I have blended you with gold’ - So do not harbour delusions and suspicions, differentiation’s and discriminations among yourselves".

This too is almost a complete statement on the above aspect of the event, described in a simple, systematic, explicit and plausible way, which we miss in other available contemporary - or near-contemporary - accounts, including the works mentioned above. It is very useful and encouraging to note that the basic elements of the process of the preparation of the nectar and its administration, as mentioned by Kaushish, accords in their basic formation with what is outlined in the Sikh Rehat Maryada approved in 1945 by the Shiromani Gurdwara Prabandhak Committee, Amritsar, and which are in actual practice uptil now, that is more than two hundred years after the completion of the text of Guru Kian Sakhian by Bhai Sarup Singh Kaushish.

His version is, however, deficient in missing (though hinted) one important incident of the event which is touched, as under, but not concluded in Koer Singh’s Gurbilas which tells that after baptising the Blessed Five, Guru Gobind Singh himself besought to be baptized likewise by the Blessed Five and admitted thereby to the Brotherhood:

Ja vidhi amrit tum Gur payo

taise mohe milayo bhayo.50

On the other hand, we do not find the inclusion of the above-mentioned Sarab Loh Ka Kara (steel bracelet) in the list of the 5 kakaars (five Ks. emblems) given in Koer Singh’s version. As far as I know, Sarup Singh’s Sakhian is the first such work which has included it in that list of five in so many words.

According to both Koer Singh and Sarup Singh, it was the revered mother who, after hearing from Kirpa Ram about what the Guru ji was doing, had come of her own and had poured a lawful of patasas (sugar puffs) in the bowl of nectar under preparation.51 But Bhai Kesar Singh Chhibbar’s Bansavalinama wrongly and unduly gives the credit of the sweetening of the ambrosial water to Diwan Sahib Chand, one of his own ancestors.52 Without mentioning the names of the universally accepted Panj Piare (Five Beloved Ones), Chhibbar had wound up his description of the ceremony rather casually and un-becomingly.

Bawa Sarup Das Bhalla, on the other hand, has given Mata Nanaki53 as the name of the revered mother on whose suggestion, he says, the Guru had sent for some lump sugar and after getting that powdered, he put that in the bowl: tab Satguru misri layi mangai.54

Without making any mention of the Guru’s call for the Sis-bhet and prompt response of the Five Beloved Ones, and also without giving any detail of the baptismal ceremony, he has disposed of the entire event by just stating thereafter:

Prabh nij kar pahul sangat ko diya.

Singh sangia naam padvi sabh diya.

Kesadhari sabh ko kina

Bir saroop sabh ko Prabh dina.55

- End of Part II

[To be concluded]

v

References

16. That is, the Guru alone know the purport of his thoughts and actions.

17. Nanak Dev, Sri Guru, Sri Guru Granth Sahib, compiled & edited by Sri Guru Arjan Dev in 1604 at Amritsar, Raga Ramkali, p.933.

18. That is, Epistle of Victory, Guru Gobind Singh’s historical letter, dated 1706, addressed to Emperor Aurangzeb and got delivered to him at Ahmednagar.

19 & 21. Sewa Das, Parchian, op. cit., parchi no.13; Episodes from Lives of the Gurus, Chandigarh-1995, op. cit., pp. 39 & 135/83, 157-8.

20. i.e., punishment, in the Sikh parlance.

22. That is, the edicts, epistles or letters of the Sikh Masters.

23. Gobind Singh, Sri Guru, edict or epistle dated 12 March 1699, as reproduced in Hukamnamae, compiled & edited by Dr. Ganda Singh, Patiala-1985, pp. 152-153. See also another, dated 1 February, 1700, op. cit., pp. 160-61.

24. Sainapat, Chander Sen, Sri Gur Sobha, Wazirabad-1711, canto 5, st. 32/148; edited by Dr. Ganda Singh, Patiala-1967; 2nd ed. 1980, p.24. Also see st. 2/115-16/122, p.20 & 46/162, p.26.

25. Gurdas Singh, Bhai, Var Ramkali Patshahi Daswin Ki, st.1.

26. Kaushish, Guru Kian Sakhian, op. cit., p.111. See foot-note 8 in this connection.

27. Koer Singh, Bhai, Gurbilas Patshahi 10, Amritsar-1751; edited by S. Shamsher Singh Ashok with introduction by Dr. Fauja Singh, Patiala-1968; 2edn. - 1986, canto 9, st.1, p.127.

28. (p.136) - Ibid, sts.87 & 104; pp.134 & 136.

29. Gurbilas Patshahi 10, op. cit., cantos 5, 7-9; pp.68, 71, 107-09; 115, 120-21, 127, 129-30; etc.

30. Bhalla, Mehma Parkash, op. cit., Sakhi no. 19, st. 1; p.829.

31. Chhibbar, Bhai Kesar Singh, Banswavalinama Dasan Patshahian Ka, Amritsar-1769, Charan 10; edited by Dr. Rattan Singh Jaggi, Chandigarh-1972, sts. 288, 316-318.

32. Bhalla, Bawa Sarup Das, Mehma Parkash, Goindwal-1776, Sakhi no. 17 sts. 29-40; edited by S. Gobind Singh Lamba, Patiala-1971, pp. 821-23.

33. See, for instance, the noting dated 7 October 1708 of Bhatt Narbad Singh in the Bhatt Vahi Talauda, Parganah Jind regarding the last commandment of Guru Gobind Singh in Sri Guru Granth Sahib; The Guru Eternal for the Sikhs by Prof. Harbans Singh, Patiala-1988, p.9-10.

38. Gobind Singh, Sri Guru, Shastar Nam Mala, as included in the Dasam Granth Sahib, compiled by Bhai Mani Singh in 1713 (?) at Amritsar; edited by Bhai Randhir Singh and published by Punjabi University, Patiala-1995, Vol.III, P.102, sts.3-5.

50. Koer Singh, Bhai, Gurbilas Patshahi 10, op. cit. canto 9, st. 57, p. 131.

51. Ibid, canto 9, sts. 25-26, p.129; Kaushish, Sakhi no. 59, p. 114.

52. Chhibbar, Bansavalinama Dasan Patshahian Ka, op. cit., canto 10, sts. 320-21, p. 120.

53. The holy grandmother of Guru Gobind Singh ji.

54. Bhalla, Mehma Parkash, op. cit., Vol.II, Sakhian Patshahi 10, Sakhi no. 18, st.8, p.826.

55. Ibid, st. 9, p.826.

[Niranjana]

no one is providing any facts. peoples mere speculation is no use to anyone. people should stop crowding this discussion with mere opinions, be they their own or others.

Navjot,

The inital discussion provides links from the Namdhari website which clearly showed its textual sources (in any event, Fateh Singh has reiterated these again, for those who couldn't see it).

Javanmard has made mention of logical reasons as to why this maybe the case and expanded the discussion further to highlight other aspects of inconsistencies amongst the accounts for Vaisakhi (i.e. the chatka of goats, the names of the Punj Pyare etc). His posts and mine also provide the names of the Sikh texts that one can explore for further research.

So far the only "speculation" being provided is by Shaheediyan in his question as to how Mata Sahib Devan could have been at the event, which is fine since he is not proposing this as fact, merely asking a question, other than this, we have the famous www.sikhawareness.com ongoing Shia-Sikh theme which nicely finds its way into all discussions and sees the usual pro-and-anti Javanmard camps vent their emotional steam.

[Kam1825]

Thanks Niranjana i have all the other books at home just missing the Sri Gur Sobha. Will contact Chattar Singh and Jeevan Singh to see if i can get hold of it

[shaheediyan]

Thanks for the article veer Niranjana.

A good indicator as to the confirmation of 1699 is the first Masand hukumnama being dated 12/3/1699 which fits nicely with Bhai Sarup Singh Kaushishs date of the sacred event.

[chatanga]

Mata Sundar becoming the official leader of the Dal Khalsa.Thats a new one on me. I thought Dal Khalsa came into being with Nawab Kapur Singh, whilst before there were many jathas under their own command. Can anyone expand?

Can we also assume that as Nihangs took birth at this time that there were in Dal Khalsa non-nihangs?