dalsingh101 Posted July 21, 2009 Report Share Posted July 21, 2009 McLeod died last night. http://www.samaylive.com/news/sikh-histori...way/639707.html 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amardeep Posted July 21, 2009 Report Share Posted July 21, 2009 This is a loss for sikh academia. May he rest in peace Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaheediyan Posted July 21, 2009 Report Share Posted July 21, 2009 (edited) Vaheguru. Putting his scientific approach to studying/understanding religion to one side, I will be forever grateful for all the preservation, translation and promotional (be it unintentional) work he has done in the field of Sikh studies. Most didn't agree with his opinions/views/findings, but even the intelligent amongst them, are grateful to McLeod for intitiating debate - creating the will amongst the Sikhs to search and find answers with more vigour and passion. I communicated with McLeod over the last few years, and even after establishing our differences, I found him always/without fail, to be a complete gentleman, always responding to my requests/questions in a timely manner and always speaking with greatest respect and passion for the subject he loved - even if not theologically/spiritually understood). One thing is for sure, Mcleod loved Sikhs as a people - even if he didn't believe in Atmik Marg - unfortunately - he never made that connection (the beautiful flower grows from the seed). The problem was/will always be peoples inability to understand that one is allowed to not believe in divinity in order to study Sikhi - from a factual point of view - one can still contribute greatly - which McLeod did - as with many other things in life - we should learn to take the best and leave the rest. McLeod had no hidden agenda, be it Christian, RSS or whatever. He simply dedicated his life to amazing research (the subject which he loved) and shared what he found, along with his understanding. Amongst the academic world, I know that McLeod had many friends and admirers, both open and silent, alongside many enemies (some of whom were jealous at his success). I hope that someone will be able to fill his shoes in the field of Sikh historical studies in the English language. Vaheguru. Edited July 21, 2009 by shaheediyan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaheediyan Posted July 21, 2009 Report Share Posted July 21, 2009 Books by McLeod: Textual sources for the study of Sikhism by W. H. McLeod - Religion - 1984 - 166 pages The Sants: studies in a devotional tradition of India by Karine Schomer, W. H. McLeod - History - 1987 - 472 pages THE MEANING OF 'SANT' IN SIKH USAGE WH McLEOD The Sant whom we were seeking proved rather hard to find. Normally, Sant Hazara Singh remains in the village ... Discovering the Sikhs: autobiography of a historian by W. H. McLeod - Sikhs - 2004 - 245 pages 1 WH McLeod ... Sikh history and religion in the twentieth century by Joseph T. O'Connell, Milton Israel, Willard Gurdon Oxtoby, W. H. McLeod, J. S. Grewal - History - 1990 - 496 pages The Sikhs: history, religion, and society by W. H. McLeod - Religion - 1989 - 161 pages ... WH McLeod ... Historical dictionary of Sikhism by W. H. McLeod - Religion - 2005 - 297 pages This expanded and updated second edition of the dictionary is an excellent place to learn more about Sikhism. Sikhs and Sikhism - Page 269 by W. H. McLeod - Religion - 2004 - 843 pages ... WH McLeod ... Essays in Sikh history, tradition and society by W. H. McLeod - Religion - 2007 - 304 pages ... WH McLeod ... Gurū Nānak and the Sikh Religion by W. H. McLeod - Religion - 1968 - 272 pages Punjabis in New Zealand: a history of Punjabi migration, 1890-1940 by W. H. McLeod - History - 1986 - 199 pages Punjabis in New Zealand: a history of Punjabi migration, 1890-1940 - Page 139 by W. H. McLeod - History - 1986 - 199 pages 9 WH McLeod ... The B40 Janam-sakhi by W. H. McLeod, Dayā Rām Abrol - Reference - 1980 - 271 pages B40, a janam-sakhi of Guru Nanak, compiled in A.D. 1733 by Daya Ram Abrol. Prem sumārag: the testimony of a sanatan Sikh by W. H. McLeod - Religion - 2006 - 129 pages ... WH McLeod ... Exploring sikhism: aspects of Sikh identity, culture and thought - Page 134 by W. H. McLeod - Religion - 2000 - 288 pages ... WH McLeod ... Exploring Sikhism: aspects of Sikh identity, culture and thought - Page 36 by W. H. McLeod - Religion - 2000 - 288 pages ... WH McLeod ... The evolution of the Sikh community: five essays by W. H. McLeod - Religion - 1976 - 119 pages Bibliography: p. [111]-114. Gurū Nānak and the Sikh religion by W. H. McLeod - Sikhism - 1976 - 259 pages Sikhism by W. H. McLeod - Religion - 1997 - 334 pages Sikhism explores how their distinctive beliefs emerged from the Hindu background of the times, how a number of separate sects split off, and how far the ideals... Gurū Nānak and the Sikh religion by W. H. McLeod - Biography & Autobiography - 1968 - 259 pages Sikhs of the Khalsa: a history of the Khalsa rahit by W. H. McLeod - History - 2003 - 482 pages On the development of Sikh ethics. Historical dictionary of Sikhism by W. H. McLeod - Religion - 1995 - 322 pages A thorough survey of Sikhism and what Sikhs refer to as Gurmat, or the teachings of the Guru. The B40 Janam-sakhi by W. H. McLeod, Guru Nānak, Daya Ram Abrol - 1980 - 271 pages Popular Sikh art by W. H. McLeod - Art - 1991 - 139 pages The book includes a series of 54 miniature posters actually purchased in the bazaars of New Delhi, which tell the story of Sikh history as popularly conceived. The Sikhs of the Punjab by W. H. McLeod - Sikhs - 1968 - 31 pages Sikhism by W. H. McLeod - Religion - 1984 - 176 pages Popular Sikh Art by W H McLeod - 1991 Includes index. Sikhism and history by Pashaura Singh, Norman Gerald Barrier, W. H. McLeod - Religion - 2004 - 280 pages Page 171 ... WH McLeod ... Punjab to Aotearoa: Migration and Settlement of Punjabis in New Zealand ... by W H McLeod, S S Bhullar, New Zealand Indian Association, Country Section - 1992 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalsingh101 Posted July 21, 2009 Author Report Share Posted July 21, 2009 McLeod had no hidden agenda, be it Christian, RSS or whatever. He simply dedicated his life to amazing research (the subject which he loved) and shared what he found, along with his understanding. That is a bold statemnt to make. Many would disagree. Some argue that he was projecting his hostility towards his original faith (Christianity), after his collapse of belief onto Sikhism. Anyway, RIP. I disagreed with much of what you wrote but at least you kept some of our own complacent 'scholars' on their toes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaheediyan Posted July 21, 2009 Report Share Posted July 21, 2009 For your information - he had no hositility (nor reason for) towards his original faith. I know this through talking to him - not through biased, rude, insulting and character assasination articles written on him. He had no need to hide anything - he wasn't looking to make friends or enemies - simply to immerse himslef in an area of study - which when he started it - was academically weak. He believed all life and culture to be equal and valuable - this was the reason he became disorientated with not just Christianity, but also with most faiths (which pretty much offer their route as unique and correct). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaheediyan Posted July 21, 2009 Report Share Posted July 21, 2009 A Gentleman and A Scholar by JAGPAL SINGH TIWANA Dr. W.Hew McLeod is my favorite author on Sikh history. In fact, he is primarily responsible for my interest in the subject. Before reading him, my knowledge of Sikh history was only what I had learned from my dharmic ( religious) teacher at B.N. Khalsa High School, Patiala, or what I heard at home and in the gurdwaras. His books provoked me to read more on the subject. In the early seventies, I read his name for the first time in Choice magazine, as the author of Guru Nanak and Sikh Religion. Choice is an organ of the American Library Association. It reviews books for academic libraries. Libraries select any book recommended by Choice with no hesitation. Thus, his book came highly recommended. I ordered one copy for our college library, and one copy for my personal use. It is indeed a scholarly work. The best part concentrated upon the teachings of Guru Nanak. Guru Nanak Dev University had it translated into Punjabi and published it as Guru Nanak da Updesh. Then, in 1976, came McLeod's second book, The Evolution of the Sikh Community. Overall, I enjoyed the book, but could not easily digest some of the new ideas it presented. McLeod puts a question mark on traditional concepts which are not supported by documents. He does not reject them, but only says they need more research. However, a mind nurtured on centuries-old traditions cannot easily accept a question mark. Even now, it takes me a week or so to appreciate his ideas which question the traditional approach after churning over them many times. I wrote a review of The Evolution of the Sikh Community which was published in The Canadian India Times in 1978. When I read that review now, it looks so childish and simplistic. We invited McLeod to Halifax in 1992 as a guest of the Maritime Sikh Society. He delivered a public lecture, "The Sikh Struggle in the Eighteenth Century and its Relevance Today", at the International Centre, Saint Mary's University and he gave a talk in our Gurdwara on "Sikhs in New Zealand". He then attended a reception in his honor at a restaurant that evening. Everybody was deeply impressed by his friendly, unassuming and modest nature. If he is brilliant as a scholar, he is equally decent as a human being with no ill-will or animosity towards his critics. Within a few weeks after he left Halifax, Dr. Pashaura Singh's thesis came out. A flood of criticism rose against McLeod from a section of Sikh writers, since he was the supervisor. I must admit I developed some doubts about McLeod's research motives. I, myself, started believing that he was indeed a Christian missionary who wanted to hurt the Sikh faith, and had ulterior motives. In 1994, I visited India to attend the wedding of my nephew. I took this opportunity to talk to the following Sikh scholars on McLeod's approach: 1 Prof. Pritam Singh, former head of Dept. of Punjabi, Mahendra College, Patiala; 2 Prof. Harbans Singh, Editor, Encylopedia of Sikhism; 3 Dr. J.S. Grewal, former Vice Chancellor, Guru Nanak University and former Director of the Indian Institute of Advanced Studies; and 4 Principal Sant Singh Sekhon. All of them said, without hesitation, that McLeod is an honest scholar. He has absolutely no motive to malign Sikhs. This was also the view of S. Khushwant Singh when I met him in February 2003. I was also advised to check the qualifications of people who were criticizing McLeod. There are always some good and some bad points in the works of every scholar. Those who focus merely on the negatives are biased and less than honest. Prof. Pritam Singh was my main source. He told me that when McLeod was working on his doctorate on Guru Nanak, he came several times to interview his next-door neighbor, the celebrated historian, Dr. Ganda Singh, and also interviewed him (Pritam Singh). Dr. Ganda Singh found McLeod absolutely sincere and earnest. Pritam Singh said that as long as Ganda Singh was alive, his critics did not have the courage to attack McLeod. Ganda Singh stood too tall and well-respected in the profession. He wrote an article in defense of McLeod in a journal, The Punjab, Past and Present, which he edited. It was a befitting reply to some critics of McLeod. Who knows better how to read, research and write history than Ganda Singh? Harbans Singh has included several well-researched articles of McLeod in Encyclopedia of Sikhism. A scholar who comes recommended by such fine minds as Ganda Singh, Harbans Singh, Khushwant Singh and J. S. Grewal has to be accepted and respected. I made my decision. I recall that I had my first lesson in history from my history Professor, S. Kartar Singh Shergill. I once mentioned to him that Nehru says so-and-so about the Moghul Emperor Babur in his book, Discovery of India. He shot back at me, " Nehru is not a historian. Read Panikar or Majumdar!" He said that, like any discipline, history, too, is a specialized field. A historian is properly trained to conduct research. Historians take pride in their qualifications. If a historian cannot write with authority on physiology, botany, or geography, the same is true in the field of history for others. Now, whenever I am asked to read a book on Sikh history by a critic of McLeod, I always check the qualifications of the author and compare his standing in the profession with Ganda Singh and others mentioned above. I then form my view accordingly. I also check the publisher of his books, if he has written any. Such famous publishing houses as Oxford, Princeton and Cambridge Universities have published the works of McLeod, Khushwant Singh and J. S. Grewal. Do I accept wholeheartedly everything McLeod writes? Certainly not, especially in the area of Sikh scriptures. He lacks proper qualifications here. If his interpretation of Gurbani clashes with that of Sahib Singh or Jodh Singh, for example, I, of course, readily prefer the views of the Sikh scholars who are the real experts in the field. As I mentioned earlier, McLeod has been accused of being a Christian missionary who came to Punjab to destroy Sikhism in order to promote Christianity in its place. No one ever cared to find out what kind of missionary work he actually did, though his critics claim to be better informed. When this kind of character assassination was in full swing in the early nineties, Dr. I. J. Singh of New York asked McLeod to clarify his position. This he did in an article in the Sikh Review. McLeod did come to Punjab as missionary of a church in New Zealand, but soon his interest in religion started to wane. As a trained historian, he found the history of Sikhs very fascinating. He taught Punjab history at Baring College, Batala, spent his extra time learning the Punjabi language, and then did his Ph.D. on Guru Nanak from the University of London. He left the college, and lost all interest and contact with the Church. After this explanation, some responsible critics stopped repeating the missionary charge. If McLeod had any motive for destroying Sikhism, he would have readily accepted that Guru Nanak was the chela (disciple) of Kabir as given in some of the works by Western writers. He not only rejects this view, but rather doubts whether Kabir and Guru Nanak had ever met. He does not believe that Guru Gobind Singh ever worshipped goddess Durga, and doubts if the Chandi Charitr, a questionable section of Dasam Granth, is the composition of Guru Gobind Singh. His book, Sikhism (1997), is full of complimentary passages on Sikhs. Lately, McLeod is getting acceptance from his open-minded detractors. His support as an expert in the court cases on turban and kirpan issues in Canada won him appreciation from many, especially the World Sikh Organization (Canada). His book, Textual Sources for the Study of Sikhism, has won him laurels from all directions. He has admirers amongst Kiwi Sikhs for tracing their New Zealander roots in his books. A while ago, when some friends started bashing McLeod on the Sikh Diaspora forum (with which I'm involved), Navtej Singh Randhawa from New Zealand came swinging in his defence. He wrote: "I am a fourth-generation Sikh-New-Zealander and I can assure you that if it wasn't for Dr W.H. McLeod's rather legendary research work on our Sikh community here in New Zealand , I would have never known about our early Sikh and Punjabi heritage in this country. Some of the historical facts are so fascinating that we are just startled by the details. Now I can very easily refer to some concrete data and collections from his books, Punjabis in New Zealand and Sikh Migration to New Zealand. My grandfather and great-grandfather worked with him on these projects. My grandfather tells me that if it wasn't for this scholar, we would have lost a very valuable piece of history from our heritage." The new generation of Sikh scholars hold McLeod in high esteem. He is the most quoted author on Sikhism today. After Ganda Singh, he is indeed the Baba Bohar (the mighty Banyan Tree) of Sikh history. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amardeep Posted July 21, 2009 Report Share Posted July 21, 2009 beautiful article, thanks for sharing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amardeep Posted July 21, 2009 Report Share Posted July 21, 2009 some of the books on the list can be read online such as this http://books.google.dk/books?id=Mj28AAAAIA...lt&resnum=1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SAadmin Posted July 21, 2009 Report Share Posted July 21, 2009 May his soul rest in peace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaheediyan Posted July 21, 2009 Report Share Posted July 21, 2009 I just found this book list supplied by Hew whilst searching though some old e-mails, I'm posting it, but most probably are available in the above list: Books by W. H. McLeod as at 17 May 2008 Guru Nanak and the Sikh Religion. Oxford: the Clarendon Press (1968). First Indian ed., rev. Delhi: OUP (1976). Third impression 1988. Oxford India Paperbacks 1996, 1998. Guru Nanak de udesh. Punjabi translation of Part V of Guru Nanak and the Sikh Religion. Amritsar: Guru Nanak Dev University (1974).* The Evolution of the Sikh Community. Delhi: OUP (1975). Oxford: the Clarendon Press (1976). viii, 119p. Oxford India Paperbacks 1996, 1998. Henry Steinbach, The Punjaub (1st ed. London, 1846) 2nd edition, with introduction by W. H. McLeod. Karachi: Oxford University Press (Oxford in Asia Historical Reprints) (1976). * Early Sikh Tradition. A study of the janam sakhis. Oxford: the Clarendon Press (1980). The B40 Janam sakhi. An English translation with introduction and annotations of the India Office Library Gurmukhi manuscript Panj. B40, a janam sakhi of Guru Nanak compiled in A.D. 1733 by Daya Ram Abrol. Amritsar: Guru Nanak Dev University (1980). Textual Sources for the Study of Sikhism. Manchester: Manchester University Press (1984).* Chicago: University of Chicago Press (1990). Chicago edition still in print. Punjabis in New Zealand: A history of Punjabi migration, 1890 1940. Amritsar: Guru Nanak Dev University (1986). Order from Singh Brothers, S.C.O. 98, City Centre, Amritsar 143001. The Chaupa Singh Rahit nama. The rahit nama attributed to Chaupa Singh Chhibbar and the associated prose rahit nama attributed to Nand Lal. Gurmukhi text and English translation with introduction and notes. Dunedin: University of Otago Press (1987). * The Sikhs: history, religion, and society. New York: Columbia University Press (1989). Who is a Sikh? The problem of Sikh identity. Oxford: the Clarendon Press (1989). New Delhi: OUP (1989). Popular Sikh Art. A selection of bazaar posters with accompanying text. Delhi: OUP (1991). Illustrated. * Punjab to Aotearoa: migration and settlement of Punjabis in New Zealand 1890-1990. With S. S. Bhullar. Hamilton: New Zealand Indian Association Country Section (Inc.) (1992). Illustrated. Historical Dictionary of Sikhism. Lanham, Md., and London: Scarecrow Press (1995). South Asian edition New Delhi :Oxford University Press (2002). Second edition revised and enlarged published by the Scarecrow Press, 2005. Sikhism. London: Penguin Books (1997). Available only in India. Gandhi and Indian Independence. With Richard Webb. Auckland: Macmillans (1998). Sikhs and Sikhism. One volume containing reprints of Guru Nanak and the Sikh Religion, Early Sikh Tradition, The Evolution of the Sikh Community, and Who is a Sikh?, all originally published by the Clarendon Press, Oxford, and also by the Oxford University Press, New Delhi. New Delhi: Oxford University Press (1999). 259+317+127+140p. Exploring Sikhism: aspects of Sikh identity, culture, and thought. Collected articles. New Delhi: Oxford University Press (2000). 288p. Sikhs of the Khalsa: a history of the Khalsa Rahit. New Delhi: Oxford University Press, 2003. 482p. Discovering the Sikhs: autobiography of a historian. Delhi: Permanent Black (2004). xii, 245p. Prem Sumarag: the testimony of a Sanatan Sikh. Translation of an eighteenth-century rahit-nama with introduction. New Delhi: Oxford University Press (2006). 129p. Essays in Sikh History, Tradition, and Society. New Delhi: Oxford University Press (2007). xi, 291p. 1.2. Booklets The Sikhs of the Punjab. A text for use in secondary schools. First N.Z. edition published by Graphic Educational Publications, Auckland (1968). Second N.Z. edition by Whitcombe & Tombs, Auckland (1970). Indian edition by Lyall, Ludhiana (1969). U.K. edition by Oriel Press, Newcastle on Tyne (1970). * The Way of the Sikh. For children 10 12 years. Amersham, U.K.: Hulton Educational Publications (1975 and four reprints). * A List of Punjabi Immigrants in New Zealand 1890 1939. Hamilton, Country Section of the Central Indian Association (1984). Illustrated. * Most of these books are still in print. Those marked with an asterisk are out of print. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalsingh101 Posted July 21, 2009 Author Report Share Posted July 21, 2009 I must say, this is most McLeod friendly Sikh forum I have encountered...lol Normally his name is like a swear word. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SURYADEV Posted July 21, 2009 Report Share Posted July 21, 2009 I must say, this is most McLeod friendly Sikh forum I have encountered...lol Normally his name is like a swear word. maybe its because this forum sees somthing in McLeods work that others are blind to see!!!!!!????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matheen Posted July 21, 2009 Report Share Posted July 21, 2009 maybe its because this forum sees somthing in McLeods work that others are blind to see!!!!!!????? Or maybe because it's possible to disagree without ranting and raving? Anyway, he's in dharmraja's hands (or on the way there, lol) so Waheguru kirpa rakhan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mithar Posted July 21, 2009 Report Share Posted July 21, 2009 (edited) I don't care about being PC so I got nothing good to say about this guy. Edited July 21, 2009 by Mithar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
singh2 Posted July 22, 2009 Report Share Posted July 22, 2009 I must say, this is most McLeod friendly Sikh forum I have encountered...lol Normally his name is like a swear word. . I do not agree with many of Mcleaod' observations on sikh history but he did a lot in identifying and digitizing many manuscripts of our religion of which our so called scholars were unaware. He handed over the list to SGPC. This was done by him before 1984. Incompetent and faithless sikh scholars of the types of Gurtej singh, Jasbir singh mann, Jagjit singh , daljit singh of IOSS considered it an attack on their hold of sikhism. They created a vicious atmosphere and lobbied with Akal takhat to penalize an old Gursikh Piar singh and pashaura singh on filmsy grounds and got them excommunicated. The same heretics later on made mockery of akal takhat directives by creating a phnatom of kala afghana and misled Sikhs by disowning their own scripture. Sikhs are not thankless people. They remember the contribution of people of other religions for sikhism however small it may be. So will they remember Macleod as well. May his soul rest in peace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaheediyan Posted July 22, 2009 Report Share Posted July 22, 2009 Well Saide Singh2, thanks. Pyar Singh and Pashaura singh were good friends of McLeod, and are excellent academics in their own right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalsingh101 Posted July 22, 2009 Author Report Share Posted July 22, 2009 I do not agree with many of Mcleaod' observations on sikh history but he did a lot in identifying and digitizing many manuscripts of our religion of which our so called scholars were unaware. He handed over the list to SGPC. This was done by him before 1984. What are you talking about here? I know he (thankfully) made a copy of the Chaupa Singh Rahit Nama which was lost in the 1984 attack. What other manuscripts do you think he digitized or made aware to our scholars? They created a vicious atmosphere and lobbied with Akal takhat to penalize an old Gursikh Piar singh and pashaura singh on filmsy grounds and got them excommunicated. For someone who likes to bandy the title heretic about when discussing the DG, you really do show these guys a lot of slack. Pashaura was questioning accepted notions on the SGGS ji. What bigger blasphemy can you get? Also, are you suggesting that the Akal Takhat caretakers are so dumb that the IOSS conned them into penalising those 2 without any basis? If true, we may as well give up on the Akal Takhat. Are they THAT useless that they couldn't read Pashaura's work and draw an appropriate conclusion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amardeep Posted July 22, 2009 Report Share Posted July 22, 2009 His translations of all the rehitnamas, B40 janamsakhi, prem sumarag and his analysis of janam sakhi are ground breaking when it comes to sikh academia in the west... We should be thankful that he did this.. When Maharaj could highlight the good sides of aurangzeb in zafarnamah, then why dont we look at Mcleods good deeds instead of focusing on the bad? May he rest in peace Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
singh2 Posted July 22, 2009 Report Share Posted July 22, 2009 What are you talking about here? I know he (thankfully) made a copy of the Chaupa Singh Rahit Nama which was lost in the 1984 attack. What other manuscripts do you think he digitized or made aware to our scholars? There are many many manuscripts he digitized. You need to come out of closed mindset to know his contribution in this aspect. Had these been not available with SGPC sikhs had very weak case for recovery of looted manuscripts in 1984. For someone who likes to bandy the title heretic about when discussing the DG, you really do show these guys a lot of slack. Pashaura was questioning accepted notions on the SGGS ji. What bigger blasphemy can you get? Please list the issues here for which Pair singh and pashaura singh were summoned. Do not generalize. Do you think that dasam granth is not important and it can be abused by these heretics at will? IOSS has committed much more serious blasphemy than Piar singh and P singh. Also, are you suggesting that the Akal Takhat caretakers are so dumb that the IOSS conned them into penalising those 2 without any basis? If true, we may as well give up on the Akal Takhat. Are they THAT useless that they couldn't read Pashaura's work and draw an appropriate conclusion. Many times people are conned by their own as they have access to them. Do not worry. Slowly but surely blasphemic acts of this organization will be brought to notice of sangat. Wait and watch. Already there is a change of Guard at IOSS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaheediyan Posted July 22, 2009 Report Share Posted July 22, 2009 Amardeep, the issue regarding Piar Singh and Pashaura Singh is not as simple as people make out. Study the whole issue properly, from both sides, you will be surprised at the politics. I have posted some info previously on this forum showing holes in the conspiracy against them - 1st and foremost, actually read their works in detail, then study the accusations made. Traditions such as the Guru Harsahai and Goindval Pothis existed in the Panth long before the advent of modern academia. Its just that these areas were not studied before. They are simply presenting research and findings as per western method, they have always kept complete bharosa and sharda in Aad Guru. They have chosen to study areas falling under textual criticism such as canon formation and Hermeneutics amongst many others - as academics they are bound to present an unbiased and serious analysis - one does not have to agree with the findings - the findings simply provide a basis for more Sikhs (or otherwise) to study these areas and provide further evidence of subject - I don't see anything wrong in promiting study of these areas - if Sikhs don't do it, others will. By not allowing our own people to perform detailed studies on our faith adn history, we are leaving ourselves open to a world of trouble from biased and non-afflilated academics. They had no hidden agenda, were not part of any RSS/British infiltrative movement - they were simply western trained academics and practicing Gursikhs. I have found out some amazing information through their research - which is still generally unknown in the mainstream. Akal Takht is a tough issue for me personally, whilst it holds traditional authority, after the SGPC takeover from the original custodians and removal of Sri Dasam Granth Sahib right up to the current Badal supervised appointments, this area remains sensitive for many people... Read Pashaura Singhs Bhagat Bhagats of Guru Granth Sahib - excellen book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
singh2 Posted July 22, 2009 Report Share Posted July 22, 2009 Amardeep, the issue regarding Piar Singh and Pashaura Singh is not as simple as people make out. Study the whole issue properly, from both sides, you will be surprised at the politics. I have posted some info previously on this forum showing holes in the conspiracy against them - 1st and foremost, actually read their works in detail, then study the accusations made. Traditions such as the Guru Harsahai and Goindval Pothis existed in the Panth long before the advent of modern academia. Its just that these areas were not studied before. They are simply presenting research and findings as per western method, they have always kept complete bharosa and sharda in Aad Guru. They have chosen to study areas falling under textual criticism such as canon formation and Hermeneutics amongst many others - as academics they are bound to present an unbiased and serious analysis - one does not have to agree with the findings - the findings simply provide a basis for more Sikhs (or otherwise) to study these areas and provide further evidence of subject - I don't see anything wrong in promiting study of these areas - if Sikhs don't do it, others will. By not allowing our own people to perform detailed studies on our faith adn history, we are leaving ourselves open to a world of trouble from biased and non-afflilated academics. They had no hidden agenda, were not part of any RSS/British infiltrative movement - they were simply western trained academics and practicing Gursikhs. I have found out some amazing information through their research - which is still generally unknown in the mainstream. Akal Takht is a tough issue for me personally, whilst it holds traditional authority, after the SGPC takeover from the original custodians and removal of Sri Dasam Granth Sahib right up to the current Badal supervised appointments, this area remains sensitive for many people... Read Pashaura Singhs Bhagat Bhagats of Guru Granth Sahib - excellen book. An excellent analysis. A sikh needs to tell the truth. Akal takhat was misled by these few persons for self glorification. These people used their links and influence on akal takhat for misleading them. They could not succeed in case of Gurinder singh Mann as his family was rich and inflluential in Punjab. What about their own character. Please read below to know. It is in Punjabi. http://www.sameydiawaaz.com/Main/Html/Lekh...016.12.2007.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyhp32 Posted July 22, 2009 Report Share Posted July 22, 2009 (edited) This forum never fails to surprise me! Unlike some of the people on this forum I came across McLeods work a few years after they were published. Mcleod was no friend of the Sikhs and his association with Peshaura Singh and Piar Singh do not come as a surprise. McLeod was known for his outrageous statements. The first one I came across was his statement that 'Jats are disappointed that there has never been a Jat Guru' No statement could be more mischevious and no doubt he made this statement up without any basis. His next one was about creating doubt about the vaisakhi of 1699. He was the first scholar to have questioned the veracity of the foundation of the Khalsa. He also stated that the 5 K's are are derived from Jat culture and were a later development and were not ordained by Guru Gobind Singh in 1699. This pet theory of McLeod was ably destroyed by Jagjeet Singh in the late 80s. Another equally mischevious statement made by McLeod in his early works was that there is a shabad of Guru Arjan Dev in the Kartarpuri Bir about the 'Mundan' or ritual hair cutting ceremony of the then young Guru Hargobind and that later the objectionable lines of this shabad were erased when the Kesh requirement came into vogue (from jat culture!). This theory was also demolished when Bhai Jodh Singh who had done a page by page analysis of the Kartarpuri Bir in his Kartapuri Bir de darshan and he stated that no such erasures were present and no shabad alluding to a mundan ceremony of Guru Hargobind was present in Kartarpuri Bir. McLeod was such a great scholar that he conjectured that even though the Dhirmalias had the KB in their possession yet being opponents of mainstream Sikhi they still chose to delete a shabad which would be inconvenient for the Khalsa! He also doubted that Guru Nanak ever went to Mecca thereby doubting not just the Janamsakhis but the first Vaar of Bhai Gurdas. Edited July 22, 2009 by tonyhp32 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaheediyan Posted July 22, 2009 Report Share Posted July 22, 2009 Right on cue! Thanks for the tribute. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyhp32 Posted July 22, 2009 Report Share Posted July 22, 2009 (edited) Well I had to put the other side of the story in light of the subjective Mcleod love-in that seems to have taken place here. So someone who doubted the first vaar of Bhai Gurdas is in your view a great scholar. McLeod even went to the length of getting a 'new' translation done of the Baba Nanak inscription in Baghdad to disprove the first vaar of Bhai Gurdas! So why the bias against Kala Afghana? Is it because he is brown skinned and Mcleod was a gora and we all know goray can never be biased! Edited July 22, 2009 by tonyhp32 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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