Is This Considered Jhatka?

[Mithar]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=46dnh9492Mc&feature=related

[Kaljug]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=46dnh9492Mc&feature=related

I think so, yes, though there might be some that disagree.

Ultimately there is no difference between this and an animal that has been killed in shikaar (with arrows, spear or rifle) as long as maryada like reciting Chandi di Var beforehand and jaikara at the point of the animals death is done.

It looks like they shot it first out of compassion because the Nihang was anticipating difficulty beheading it one blow.

What do you think, veera?

Edit: WTH kind of animal is that? It looks way too big to be a goat.

K.

Edited April 26, 2010 by Kaljug

[dalsingh101]

I know Maha Kosh states that a gun can be used for jhatka.

What was that animal anyway?

[amardeep]

Nice language used in the beginning, i dont hope that was said by a nihang

[amardeep]

On minute 1 why is the nihang jumping on the other Singhs back?

[Kaljug]

On minute 1 why is the nihang jumping on the other Singhs back?

To force out some of the blood into the sarbloh bata. The blood is used for shastar tilak.

K.

[kdsingh80]

Edit: WTH kind of animal is that? It looks way too big to be a goat.

Could be One of the big breed of Goat.Probably a large male

http://www.fao.org/docrep/004/x6532e/X6532E03.htm

[Only five]

This whole jhatka thing is just getting out of hand. It's just becoming a pointless ritual. If their getting ready for war then, the Taliban is waiting for a fight. They're arleady mocking Sikhs and Sikhs have been executed.

Only call him a Nihang who goes into battle.

[amardeep]

Well said only five

[Kaljug]

This whole jhatka thing is just getting out of hand. It's just becoming a pointless ritual. If their getting ready for war then, the Taliban is waiting for a fight. They're arleady mocking Sikhs and Sikhs have been executed.

Only call him a Nihang who goes into battle.

I think you're being too hard on the Nihangs and too soft on the rest of the Panth.

Apply your harsh criticism to the rest of the Sikh Panth - who, after all, are supposed to be Shastardhari Kshatriyas also (or did you think the kirpan was just for show?) - and you might realise that it has become weak-willed and feeble through neglect of the very practices that the Nihangs are struggling to keep alive.

Yes, it would be great if the Nihangs updated their warrior skill set, but why should they march into war while the rest of the Sikh Panth sit on their behinds and criticise their puratan Sikh maryada from behind the anonymity of their laptops in the comfort of their own homes?

K.

[dalsingh101]

Let's be frank, everyday Sikhs are more likely to aspire to financial, material goals than wanting to be battle ready on a modern madaan. Comfort, status, roof on head and 'respectabul' family are top priority.

Nihungs just want to preserve the old way of life, for good reason, but they seem oblivious to what goes on in the wider world around them. Only a fool believes they really represent anything like a valid modern force. They are a bit like the Amish, who want to live their own way regardless of the changes in the world.

Well, at least they aren't scared to kill something, push comes to shove.

It is a waste of time going on about the Sikh lack of preparedness for modern jung, I think it is only those who live in a mental fairy land, who don't realise this is the situation. Singhs have no fear factor no more, all over the globe. People attack them and see them as easy targets. Such people don't even fear any retribution like many did in the past.

Cue Shaeediyan to rapid post why nihangs are the baddest warriors around, a single member of whom could disarm and decapitate a squadron of SAS or Taliban faujis.

Edited April 27, 2010 by dalsingh101

[shaheediyan]

Actually Dalsingh, the value of the Nihang Singhs is in their preservation and understanding of Guru Gobind Singhs rehit maryada and Jung psychology. It is the mindset, faith, culture that the legendary status of Warriors is derived from, not fighting style.

I have never said that Nihang Singhs have great fighting knowlegde, albeit some who know archery, ghor svaar, and bits and bobs of sword fighting and chakkar throwing, most is lost. What is not lost is the ferocious Singh ithihaas and its understanding - which the Nihang Singhs retain via their preservation of puratan Ithihaas, Guru Gobind Singhs writings and culture.

Use of modern weapons is the easiest skill to acquire, with blade and open handed combat being much more difficult elements.

Sikhs do not have a country or a modern army, when the people of the world are busy killing each other, Singhs should at least be able to survive and defend themselves at a ground/civilian level, this is where the Nihangs will hold their own.

[shaheediyan]

Other than that, I Nihang Singhs are the asli Singh roop in my opinion, as is clearly demonstrated in most puratan ithihaas, mock them if you like.

If you bother to read Sakhian of Khalsa of old, you will see that your last sarcastic sentance in some cases was not far from the truth. I do believe that to this day, Nihangs hold the ingredients to produce yodhai, parchaarak, kirtani what have you, of the highest level.

The Nihangs have been given a bad press for more than half a century, mostly to do with educated and Sant Mat Sikhs looking at them and their traditional practices as 'backwards'. Their loss.

We are living in a strange time, where we have people who mock the original Sikh traditions on one hand (and puratan ithihaas and 10th Gurus writings) we have many intelligent youth searching and finding a whole rvaaj that has been hidden from them, and are seeing the classical beauty and wisdom in the same...

Edited April 27, 2010 by shaheediyan

[Maha Singh]

Doing Chatka doesnt mean the person has to go to war, Chatka is part of martial training, allowing the Chatkai to practise various sword strikes and acknowledge their effectiveness. In modern day, this is more of a ritual to ensure that the head comes off by bracing and pulling the goats head with rope and holding its legs, only ever using the one style of overhead strike with force over technique. True Chatka is done by letting the Chatanga walk free and not waiting for ages until its neck alines, using various types of cuts and strikes from different angles, contemplating the battlefield and techniques and then delivering the blow. For those Singhs who train on a daily basis, the meat of the Bakra will provide the neccessary protiens and nutrients to recover and grow strength in order to train up to 10 hours a day.

Although I believe modern day Nihangs are holding onto the more traditional maryada of the Khalsa, there is allot which they dont hold. If Nihangs are the vanguard of the Khalsa, their martial prowess should be second to non, but most are overweight, unfit and never engage in actual training apart from a quick sword spinning demo at Hola Mohalla. You just have to read some portions out of old texts to appreciate how much physical excercise and swordsmanship the Puratan Singhs engaged in, and how much emphasis the Guru put on the Singhs who would do it with pure concentration.

The discussion of whether Nihangs should wage a Dharam Yudh upon all those who are unjust in the world is for another thread, however protection of your own Dharam, Life and Honour is closer to home and if you cant protect that you wont be able to protect anyone elses.

[Mithar]

Maha Singh and Shaheediyan, what is your opinion on this video? do you think this is traditional Jhatka?

[shaheediyan]

I can't recall 100%, but I think Dasmesh Pita has given hukum to shoot Madho Das's Goats rather than decapitate them.

If we look at strict terminology, then Chatka refers to decapitation rather than shooting (as per original Kshatriya culture).

Whether it is parvaan or not, well, Jvala Singh has posted a number of excellent translations where 10th Master has given hukum for Singhs to hunt and eat, the hunting would obvioulsy have been done with rifle/bow.

Other than that, you are better off asking a Nihang Jathedaar for the 'official' answer to your question from the Nihang perspective.

[Maha Singh]

The gunshot was definitly Chatka and it killed the goat instantly, the beheading was obviously multiple hits. The bone of contention is obviously with the Nihangs who feel that anything that isnt beheaded in a single strike is not considered as Chatka and therefore not consumable. As Shaheediyan stated, hunting, spearing and shooting is not the common type of Chatka. Even whilst hunting a wild boar/deer it is unlikely that you will kill it instantly, it will most likely take a serious injury to the vital organs and run, and will collapse and die from blood loss, this will be the case with most wild game which is not reared in the home like for example a chicken or goat.

I doubt puratan Singhs put as much ritual to hunting as modern day Nihangs do, they ate to live and survive, even Panth Parkash states an episode where the Singhs ate Halal meat in the sakhi of Kirpan Bhet (this would obviously not be the common practise)

This will bring up the question that, if a goat isnt Chatka'd in one go, do they give the meat away to someone else?

Edited April 27, 2010 by Maha Singh

[chatanga1]

what does the word chatka mean? Ive thought it to be "sudden strike" which has loosely fcome to mean a "one-strike finish." I think.

that animal was massive and ive never seen goats like that in panjab. You get these bigger goats in mountainous areas. still ive seen buffalo decapitated in one strike so this could still be done on this goat-like creature with a good khanda.

[shaheediyan]

If the Goat isn't decapitated (clean) in a single blow, the maas cannot be used for Maha-prasaad. I am sure it would be given to the common folk for consumption. There is a difference between killing through hunting and killing for Maha-prasaad. The latter rightly has much ritual associated with it (as does Karah-Prasaad). Where as the hunted animal would mosre likely have a simple ardaas done over it. Again, hunted animals wouldn't be made to suffer unnecissarily, they would be dispatched ASAP, after the target has been hit, as per most hunting traditions.

The real question is... is normal chatka allowed for Nihangs to consume i.e. day to day diet, rather than Maha-Prasaad or hunted meat...?

[jaikaara]

refer to www.degtegfateh.0catch.com

[Only five]

I think you're being too hard on the Nihangs and too soft on the rest of the Panth.

Apply your harsh criticism to the rest of the Sikh Panth - who, after all, are supposed to be Shastardhari Kshatriyas also (or did you think the kirpan was just for show?)

Veera, remember that thing I wrote on jhatka while back and pretty much everyone thought I was writing against Jhatka. Well here, we go again. In no way, Am I against Jhatka. The Nihang Singhs are the warriors of the Khalsa Panth, they are the one's that focus more on war aspect of Sikhi. So when it comes to standing up for Sikhi in a physical way, these guys are suppose to be going out and serving justice. But what do you see, now. The nihang Singh, just like rest of the Panth, who have gone selfish sitting on their hands. Say I was a taksal Singh, I'm be like to the Nihang you go fight the oppressors and the Nihang Singh is sayin the same back to the Taksal Singh. Only reason they are telling each other this, is because they believe their maryada will die, if they weren't around anymore.

But it's the Nihang Singhs from rest of the Singhs that say we have the warrior aspect in us. They perform Jhatka regularly and probably go hunting regularly aswell. To my understanding Taksal were started to teach Gurbani and Guru Sahib gave the Nihang Singhs the duty of protecting people from oppressors. But somewhere throughout time, the Nihang Singhs got over protective of their way of life and lost the plot. Instead of working together, the Taksal and Nihang Singhs, both started their own ways and started their different marayada.

- and you might realise that it has become weak-willed and feeble through neglect of the very practices that the Nihangs are struggling to keep alive.

Yes, it would be great if the Nihangs updated their warrior skill set, but why should they march into war while the rest of the Sikh Panth sit on their behinds and criticise their puratan Sikh maryada from behind the anonymity of their laptops in the comfort of their own homes?

K.

Jhatka is to prepare a person for war, but what is it being used for now. Just for the tongue. Teaching the youth Singhs how to do jhatka is one thing, but you have older Singh that have done it couple of times, now just doing it over and over. It's become more of a party thing. Get together, watch be blow this things head off and then another cut the things head, while it's barely got any life in it.

And you said it all. THEIR PURATAN SIKH MARYADA. How many Maryada's did Guru Sahib leave for us and how many have we created? Just wait 50 years or so. We'll be just like the Christians. Already looking like them, might aswell jump into their suits because surely no one is going to drop their big heads and come up with one Maryada.

[Only five]

Although I believe modern day Nihangs are holding onto the more traditional maryada of the Khalsa, there is allot which they dont hold. If Nihangs are the vanguard of the Khalsa, their martial prowess should be second to non, but most are overweight, unfit and never engage in actual training apart from a quick sword spinning demo at Hola Mohalla. You just have to read some portions out of old texts to appreciate how much physical excercise and swordsmanship the Puratan Singhs engaged in, and how much emphasis the Guru put on the Singhs who would do it with pure concentration.

The discussion of whether Nihangs should wage a Dharam Yudh upon all those who are unjust in the world is for another thread, however protection of your own Dharam, Life and Honour is closer to home and if you cant protect that you wont be able to protect anyone elses.

Dead on. That what I was saying when I called it a useless ritual NOW. There is seriously a need to modernize the weapons the Nihang Singhs practice with, so when it comes to protecting Sikhs from oppressors, it can be done. Then keeping the Jhatka tradition will serve is purpose.

[Kaljug]

Veera, remember that thing I wrote on jhatka while back and pretty much everyone thought I was writing against Jhatka. Well here, we go again. In no way, Am I against Jhatka. The Nihang Singhs are the warriors of the Khalsa Panth, they are the one's that focus more on war aspect of Sikhi. So when it comes to standing up for Sikhi in a physical way, these guys are suppose to be going out and serving justice. But what do you see, now. The nihang Singh, just like rest of the Panth, who have gone selfish sitting on their hands. Say I was a taksal Singh, I'm be like to the Nihang you go fight the oppressors and the Nihang Singh is sayin the same back to the Taksal Singh. Only reason they are telling each other this, is because they believe their maryada will die, if they weren't around anymore.

Don't you see how this kind of bickering just divides the Panth and is lagely responsible for weakening us further?

It is the duty of all Sikhs to be Sant-Sipahis, not just the Nihangs, and expecting them to go to war while we watch from the sidelines is disgraceful - so is telling a Taksali Singh that it's his duty to learn santhiya and ithihas and you are exempt from such scholarly efforts because you are not part of his jatha.

But it's the Nihang Singhs from rest of the Singhs that say we have the warrior aspect in us. They perform Jhatka regularly and probably go hunting regularly aswell.

The Nihang Singhs do not consider themselves distinct from the rest of the Panth - they have been placed there on the outskirts by the majority SGPC/Sant Mat schools of thought in Sikhi who are largely responsible for diminishing the power and influence of the Nihangs. The Nihangs teach that they are the traditional roop of the whole of the Khalsa Panth. Just as Baba Deep Singh was at once a Shastardhari Soorbir Nihang and Naam Abhiyasi Gursikh Jathedar of Taksal, so do they attempt to keep both the warrior traditions and the bhakti intertwined.

You may feel that the Nihangs now are an outdated force, but they are the only ones keeping alive puratan maryada like jhatka alive to be taught to the rest of the Panth when it eventually is forced to learn them again. And yes, jhatka and shikaar are very much a Guru-ordained tradition (see Jvala Singh's blog for references).

Do they need to update their skills? Definitely. Should they abandon maryada in the pursuit of advanced weaponry and battlefield skills? Of course not, since these are the traditions that make the Khalsa Panth a Dharmic force.

I just feel it is unfair to expect them all to go fight battles that we are too cowardly or weak to take part in ourselves. It's especially unpleasant when a lot of the Panth goes out of its way to demean their maryada and demonise them and yet expect them to stick up for us when we are in a sore spot.

Jhatka is to prepare a person for war, but what is it being used for now. Just for the tongue.

Teaching the youth Singhs how to do jhatka is one thing, but you have older Singh that have done it couple of times, now just doing it over and over. It's become more of a party thing. Get together, watch be blow this things head off and then another cut the things head, while it's barely got any life in it.

I really don't think you understand the purpose of jhatka at all, Singh. Jhatka isn't something that is done once and then that's it, you are ready for war. It is something that needs to be maintained regularly, just as you need to practice on a heavy bag regularly to keep your boxing skills sharp. (Maha Singh has done a good job of detailing the reason for and the ideal method of jhatka above.) The Mahaprasaad needs to be eaten regularly for the protein content to increase your strength and endurance and to enable you to practice your shastar vidiya for long periods of time.

Edit: And forget this silly argument about mahaprasaad being all about "taste", veera. It's a completely ridiculous thing to say since taste is entirely subjective and that line of reasoning leads nowhere.

K.

Edited April 27, 2010 by Kaljug

[Adhyatmic]

Is Jhatka the only type of meat allowed to be consumed by Sikhs? For those living in the west do you uphold vegetarian diets?

also how tasty is MahaParsad? lol

[Guest zulu]

also how tasty is MahaParsad? lol

I heard its very very basic, they dont do a turka(people spell it differently), no onions etc nor garlic? and they only use a pinch of kala loon? is that right?