dalsingh101 Posted July 13, 2009 Report Share Posted July 13, 2009 From Chahar Gulshan by Rai Chatarman Saksena completed in 1759-60. Translated by Irfan Habib in Sikh history from Persian sources. Mata Sundari: She was a wife of Guru Gobind. They say she also served him [or kept him company]. From the time she quarrelled with Ajit Singh (my note: this was an adopted son), she established a separate spiritual seat and people were drawn towards her. When she died people turned to Sahib Devi. Sahib Devi also known as Kunwara Doli (virgin bride). They say she is the daughter of one of the hill rajahs. He had sent his daughter for [marriage to]Guru Gobind. Guru Gobind died before her arrival. Thereafter she did not agree to marry anyone and lived in Delhi. After Mata Sundari's death she succeeded to her spiritual seat. After one year, she too died. Footnotes: (1) The Sikh tradition is that Sahib Devi was the daughter of a Sikh of Rohtas, and was married by the Guru after he had given up family life (Macauliffe. 5. pg 143-144) (2) According to Sikh tradition Sahib Devi died very soon after her husband and thus predeceased Mata Sundari, who died in 1747 (Macauliffe. 5. pgs: 254, 256-257) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalsingh101 Posted July 13, 2009 Report Share Posted July 13, 2009 Duplicate post. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaheediyan Posted July 13, 2009 Report Share Posted July 13, 2009 Thanks Dal Singh. But thats hardly a convincing source - they have their facts wrong for starters i.e. Guru Gobind Singh died before meeting Mata Sahib Deva. One mid 18th c source independant still does not compare to what Sikh ithihaas and Guru Gobind Singh Jis wives samaadhs. The simple explanation for the above is that the account was said to be written around the same period as Mata jis death, hence the writer wrote only about the wives he was aware of in Delhi during that time. Mata Jeeto (Ajeet Kaur) had passed away many decades earlier (a Gurdwara still exists in her memory), so the writer would have been unaware of her. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalsingh101 Posted July 13, 2009 Report Share Posted July 13, 2009 All I draw from it is that Dasmesh Pita had more than one wife. The closeness in terms of date means it was unlikely that the author would get broad facts wrong (i.e. multiple wives) but of course smaller details could get confused. Your hypothesis is valid. I would also like to explore the possibility that Mata Sundari and Mata Jeeto may be the same person. Before coming on such sites, these questions never meant anything to me...lol BTW, I am open minded on the matter. No decision made yet. And no rush to do so either. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaheediyan Posted July 13, 2009 Report Share Posted July 13, 2009 The Mata Sundri = Mata Jeeto theory is a new one, started up by Neo-Victorian educated Sikhs who wanted to emulate their masters/brothers culture/ethics. Before this century, the number of wives that Guru Hargobind Sahib, Guru Har Rai and Guru Gobind Singh Ji had was never a debate. Its the kind of thing that Afghana folk would promote. All Sampryadas and ithihaas agree on the number of wives our 3 Gurus had. The reason the likes of me and you have had a problem with history such as this is because of how far removed we have become from real Indian/Sikh culture (pre-British Raj), its not our fault, we try and correct the world and reconcile it to our narrow understanding/education of ethics and culture based on the community we have been brought up in. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalsingh101 Posted July 14, 2009 Report Share Posted July 14, 2009 Shaheediyan I have no problem with accepting Dasmesh Pita had 3 wives. It doesn't diminish him in my eyes one iota. We have to be careful though because next, people will be saying Dasmesh Pita worshipped Kali Devi based on some puratan sources. But you are right, there are some tendencies to project modern liberal values on Sikhi at times. I was raised up in the shadow of the Singh Sabha literature movement. I am now having to revisit things I previously took for granted..... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
singh2 Posted July 14, 2009 Report Share Posted July 14, 2009 Shaheediyan I have no problem with accepting Dasmesh Pita had 3 wives. It doesn't diminish him in my eyes one iota. We have to be careful though because next, people will be saying Dasmesh Pita worshipped Kali Devi based on some puratan sources. But you are right, there are some tendencies to project modern liberal values on Sikhi at times. I was raised up in the shadow of the Singh Sabha literature movement. I am now having to revisit things I previously took for granted..... Dal singh101 Can you please cite those sources here. You have a tendency to pass a deriding remark like this and then disappear. We had a plenty of discussions on this subject already. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SAadmin Posted July 15, 2009 Report Share Posted July 15, 2009 I understand singh2 veer is very passionate about maintaining respect of sri dasam granth. We all appreciate his passion towards sri dasam granth being bani. But with that being said, we must ask him also to stick to this topic. I can split the topic in to new topic if he wishes so? Please advise the title of new thread singh2 veer? Any off-topics will be deleted...! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
singh2 Posted July 15, 2009 Report Share Posted July 15, 2009 I understand singh2 veer is very passionate about maintaining respect of sri dasam granth. We all appreciate his passion towards sri dasam granth being bani. But with that being said, we must ask him also to stick to this topic. I can split the topic in to new topic if he wishes so? Please advise the title of new thread singh2 veer? Any off-topics will be deleted...! N30singh ji The thread can be named as History of Dasam Granth a sacred scripture of sikhs 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koi Posted July 31, 2009 Report Share Posted July 31, 2009 Shaheediyan I have no problem with accepting Dasmesh Pita had 3 wives. It doesn't diminish him in my eyes one iota. We have to be careful though because next, people will be saying Dasmesh Pita worshipped Kali Devi based on some puratan sources. But you are right, there are some tendencies to project modern liberal values on Sikhi at times. I was raised up in the shadow of the Singh Sabha literature movement. I am now having to revisit things I previously took for granted..... I thought Mata Sahib Kaur Ji did not marry Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chatanga1 Posted January 13, 2011 Report Share Posted January 13, 2011 Hi everyone just me, this discussion was locked on sikhcontrolfreaksangat but there was aquestion/query that i had. i would like topresent that to the sangat here. BhaiGurdas Ji writes " Eka Naari jati hoe" what is the meaning of the "A" after the Ek. Ek would mean one. Also english translations give the word Jati as celibate, but can Jati also mean steadfast as well? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SURYADEV Posted January 13, 2011 Report Share Posted January 13, 2011 Hi everyone just me, this discussion was locked on sikhcontrolfreaksangat but there was aquestion/query that i had. i would like topresent that to the sangat here. BhaiGurdas Ji writes " Eka Naari jati hoe" what is the meaning of the "A" after the Ek. Ek would mean one. Also english translations give the word Jati as celibate, but can Jati also mean steadfast as well? Original jati means celibate, but (i think esp in sikh theology/philosophy) it also means steadfast. You can be a jati and be married or in relationships. Krishan Maharaj was considered a jati along with several other avatars including those who were married. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest zulu Posted January 14, 2011 Report Share Posted January 14, 2011 (edited) Interesting to note that the Damdami Taksal also consider the concept of multiple wives amongst the Sodhibans Sikh Gurus to be true... from: http://www.damdamitaksal.com/his_gurus.htm Satgur Har Rai Sahib Jee (Sodh lineage) wives: Mata Krishan Kaur Jee, Mata Chand Kaur Jee, Mata Ram Kaur Jee, Mata Kaut Kalyani Jee, Mata Thoki Jee, Mata Anokhi Jee, Mata Ladho Jee, Mata Prem Kaur Jee Could someone verify this? first time I have heard guru har rai having more than one wife(sorry for my ignorance)....not judging or being rude just wondering. If so any written accounts of it? Thank you Edited January 15, 2011 by zulu 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest zulu Posted January 15, 2011 Report Share Posted January 15, 2011 anyone? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amardeep Posted January 15, 2011 Report Share Posted January 15, 2011 I think this information comes from Sant Gurbachan Singh Bhindewales book "Gurmat rehat maryada" 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chatanga1 Posted January 19, 2011 Report Share Posted January 19, 2011 (edited) but (i think esp in sikh theology/philosophy) it also means steadfast. ive been looking into this word jati, and it seems to indicate that it actually means true to one's word. That is, whatever promises a man makes, or whatever words come out of his mouth, he will keep their jat, ie he will honour it. looking at the monk who self imolated, i am beginning to think that this man was a jati, ie true to his word and steadfast in his faith. have any of you heard the term jatt-satt? what does this mean to you? from Mahan Kosh: ਜਤੁ - jatu - जतु ਸੰ. ਯਤ. ਸੰਗ੍ਯਾ- ਇੰਦ੍ਰੀਆਂ ਨੂੰ ਕਾਬੂ ਕ਼ਰਨਾ. "ਜਤੁ ਪਹਾਰਾ ਧੀਰਜੁ ਸੁਨਿਆਰੁ." (ਜਪੁ) ੨. ਸੰ. ਜਤੁ. ਗੂੰਦ। ੩. ਲਾਖ (ਲਾਕ੍ਸ਼ਾ) ਜਤੁ ਪਾਹਾਰਾ ਧੀਰਜੁ ਸੁਨਿਆਰੁ ॥ Let self-control be the furnace, and patience the goldsmith. further use of this word is Aad Guru ji translates as follows : self-control, celibacy, self-restraint, abstinency, modesty. looking back the line by Bhai Gurdas : eka mari jati hoe dusre dhee bhen jane im thinking it could be looked at as: One is self-restrained to his woman, regarding others as mothers and sisters. Edited January 19, 2011 by chatanga1 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.