chatanga1

This is in reply to material posted by a Guest in other thread. I will speak from personal experience and my personal beliefs in Guru Ji. I do not care about the authenticity of Charitropakhyan from historical perspective. Since, the Chaupai Sahib is well approved by all the Panth, Charitropakhyan comes along with it. Baba Nand Singh ji took the rehraas from Hazoor Sahib, which includes the dohra about 405 Charitars. If there was anything controversial , Baba Ji will not have approved it. That alone is enough for me personally to have faith in words of Guru and Sant Mahapurush, I will not  change that at any cost, no matter how many historical sources this and that you provide me.
There are two questions that I would like to address, and some questions that I would like to ask Anti-charitropakhyan people in the end.
1) How can Guru Gobind Singh Ji write erotica ?
2) If this is bani, why is it not read in front of sangat in diwans ?
 
Ans 1 : Can Guru Ji write erotica ? It really is the fault of those who view it as erotica. When they make such a statement, they are basically assuming that Guru ji is on the same mental level as them. They assume that Guru Ji is affected by Lust, that Guru Ji will get excited when they will write such erotic material or tales. They assume that Guru ji like us find the form of woman attractive or get desires just like them. These people view Guru as a normal human being with desires like them. They think that Guru ji finds this material sexy, just like they do. They are making all these assumption based on their human nature. They do not know anything about the nature of their Guru. They are judging Guru based on their limited experience of reality & bondage of sexual desires, and their own insecurity. Just like no one can know about God, no one can know about the Nature of Guru. We can only say he is beyond and beyond. Neo Singh often does a good job in describing such states of non-duality untouched complete awareness, as evident from Akal Ustat.
          Now I will give my own example. I went through medical school. I have touched breasts, I have done manual vaginal physical examinations with my hands touching each and every portion you can imagine, I have done Pap Smear examinations taking samples from the cervix, I have assisted in deliveries of babies and witnessed the tearing & all the emotional drama. I have witnessed the female form in its fullest, deepest & grossest state. I have dissected bodies, penises and vaginas.   Do you know what was the state of my mind during my exposure ?
                        It was neutral. There was no sexual feelings associated with anything at all. Instead the opposite happened. My libido had decreased to zero after doing those pap smears and handling crazy mothers during delivery. I was not excited at all at the sight of breast or female form.  I was just in that state. The atmosphere was very professional & such thoughts never arose. Thus, if someone like me , who is lowly nothing, can experience this state of non-attachment to female body & loss of libido after so much exposure, do you think that Guru Gobind Singh Ji  who is the creator himself, the one who created Maya will be affected when writing sexual descriptive tales.
 
Ans 2 :   If this is bani, why is it not read in front of sangat in diwans ?
Consider this bani as something which is for certain advanced Sikhs who hold positions of great responsibility spiritually and politically, or saints who need to learn the antics of great maya before they can reach their ultimate goal.  Only those who are medical students & Doctors are allowed to witness & perform the procedures on female body that I mentioned above. Not every joe blow can come in and touch a woman's breast. This is years of rigorous training for a transformation of a medical student into a doctor or surgeon. Think of medical student as someone who risen above sexual desires and surgeon as a brahmgyani who reached his final destination.
If you teach this bani to someone who has not even read Guru Granth Sahib or has not even risen above the Lust, it will definitely seem as erotica. And all these people are only projecting their own insecurities , fears and weaknesses through their anti-charitropakhyan stance.
 
3) Why so many graphic details ?
 When you want to bring a piece to life, details are included from a poetic standpoint.  The details of sex positions, the voices of bed squeaking, ejaculation of sperm, deceit, or others etc recreate the scene and bring it to life. If you are getting excited reading this then you have a lot of work to do. Obviously, this was not meant for everyone. If you are getting weak in your knees reading this obviously you need to do a lot of work. Go apply Guru Granth Sahib in your life before you get to reading these so called erotic tales.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

whether i do or not, talk with respect when you take his name.

"defend" DG? so you are leading an offence against DG is what you are saying?

whether i do or not, talk with respect when you take his name.

whether i do or not, talk with respect when you take his name.

So what is wrong with the sakhi?
Can you please provide evidence that Sri Charitropakhian Sahib jee was read to prostitutes? Even if it was, even SSGGSJ verses can be misinterpreted to perform anti-Gurmat activities. So should we stop believing in SSGGSJ?
Bhul chuk maaf

Closing statement :
Gurbani is Gurbani, whether from Aad, Dasam or Sarbloh Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.
If we believe that all ten gurus are the same, then so is their bani. 
Whilst we all agree that Aad Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is our Guru, Dasam and Sarbloh deserve no less respect.
We've pretty much cleared up the issue of why the rule exists in the RM regarding parkash of Dasam at the same level as Aad. Hopefully the sangat worldwide will appreciate this and one day we will be able to have darshan of Aad Dasam Sarbloh wherever we go, by Guru's grace.

But this situation is STILL more better prospect than your 5 lions 1000 sheep rule.

They have to want to be part of the Panth as well. If the Khalsa or mainstream Sikhs are wanting more rights for Sikhs/Panjab in India, or Khalistan, are the Sehajdharis going to support this being a mix of Hindus/Sikhs?
I was hoping that Sikhs would have got over this kind of thinking. Like it or not the indian state is too strong militarily, we can't beat them in armed confrontation, as per your 5 lions 1000 sheep thinking. The mentality should be numbers. 5 lions can never outvote 1000 sheep, or 6 sheep for that matter, and that is why we will always have the disadvantage. Its the main reason we lost our western-Panjab Sikh heritage to Pakistan in 1947.
 
Remember that 5 lions can be ruled by 6 sheep.

one thing i have heard from many Sikhs, not caste specific, is the number of Biharis coming to Panjab for a better life and detesting any improvement/progress made by them, when the Sikhs have done the same thing coming to the West.

How many times have I heard jatts use the term "bihari bhaiya" in a derogatory term. 
We all need to unute under the Nishaans of maharaj whether you are tava face, peasant, wood worker, road sweaper & even shoe cobbler. 
Crystal

Since amardeepu likes such news, I have a collection on my USB:
 
 
Over 200 Dalits Convert to Sikhism in MP
NDTV correspondent reported last May from Guna, Madhya Pradesh
In Madhya Pradesh’s Guna and Vidishia district more than two hundred Dalits have converted to
Sikhism in order to free themselves of discrimination by the upper castes - a tradition that has
been prevalent for years. Though this has not yet led to a change of mindset, more Dalits look all
set to convert to Sikhism. 80 year old Dangal Rai is now Dangal Singh. All his life, he says, he
has suffered discrimination from upper castes Hindus and has now decided to convert to
Sikhism.
We were not allowed to enter the temples and were shunned by everybody, said Dangal Singh.
The village of Deomari is VIP constituency in every sense of the word. It is part of Jyotiraditya
Scindia’s parliamentary constituency and also part of the Raghogarh assembly constituency
represented by Chief minister Digvijay Singh. But here, too, Dalits have been traditionally
discriminated against and four families in this alone have converted to Sikhism. Many of the
villagers say their first introduction to the religion came when migrant labour from the village
went to Punjab.Conversions have since been reported from 11 villages in Guna district and four villages in
Vidisha district. In January 2002 alone 42 people converted. In March at least 200 people
converted, said Giani Bhajan Singh, Guru Singh Sabha, Guna. (MP)
Dalits here are still learning to tie the turban and the basics of their new religion but the outward
changes have yet to bring a change of the mindset through which others see them. Even today,
after conversions, we still have problems. We are still shunned and humiliated. said Nishan
Singh. Pracharaks have yet to instil the heroic spirit of Sikhism.
[Courtesy Sarbhpreet Singh]

The Dalit tag still sticks despite converting to Sikhism




By Imran Khan, Patna, June 9 : It is a centuries-old ignominy they wanted to escape by converting to Sikhism in Punjab and found new respect there. But back home in Bihar, the tag of Dalit refused to leave them.



Many Dalit labourers who migrated to Punjab for work years ago and converted toduring their stay there are upset that they are still being categorised as Scheduled Caste in government records after they returned to their native villages in Bihar.

Sanjay Singh, who converted to Sikhism during his years-long stay in Punjab and sports a colourful turban and a long beard, says local and district administration officials in Bihar are not ready to accept him as a Sikh. Guru the founder of Sikhism, preached against discrimination and prejudices on the basis of caste, class and status.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/hard-talk/25333-dalit-tag-still-sticks-despite-converting.html

"The government officials are still treating us as Rishideo of the Musahar caste (the poorest Dalit community known as rat eaters), not as Sikhs, despite our efforts to convince them," Singh told IANS, adding that he was yet to be termed a Sikh in the government records despite repeated requests.

Singh said that about two decades ago his close relative Naren Rishideo left for Punjab to earn a livelihood and converted to the Sikh religion, becoming Naren Singh. His example was followed by most of those of his caste men working there.

"We tasted dignity, respect and equality after we converted. Before that, we were treated as low caste, sometimes even inferior to animals, by the upper caste and backward caste people in the village," Sanjay Singh said.

He said most of the women members of their families have now started using the Kaur surname.

Rup Singh and Manish Singh, who also converted to Sikhism, are no longer keen to be known as Rishideos and want that they should be treated as Sikhs in government records.

"We changed our religion to get rid of the stigma of untouchablity and to live a life with pride. We were happy to return to our village. Local people, barring a few, accepted us as Sikh, but in the government records and caste certificates we have the same old Dalit tag," Rup Singh told IANS.

Soon after they returned to their village Halhalia in Araria district, nearly 400 km from Patna, they were shocked to learn that despite the change of religion they would have to fight another battle to upgrade their social status in official records.

"All the Dalits who converted to the Sikh religion are still Dalits in the caste certificate and we are being denied the status of the Sikhs," Rup Singh said.

Manish Singh, another convert, says that they are no longer Dalits after embracing the Sikh religion and they should instead be treated as minorities as Sikhs are a minority community in the country.

A large number of migrant labourers from Bihar who converted to Sikhism in Punjab and stayed back there hardly face any identity problem, but the converts who returned to their native villages in Bihar are facing a different discrimination, Manish Singh said.

Araria district magistrate Anjani Kumar Verma, when asked about the problem, told IANS over telephone that he was not aware of the matter.

"So far no such complaint has come to my notice. If there is anything like it, the district administration will do justice with them," Verma said.

Over 200 Dalit villagers of half a dozen villages including Kamta Balia, Gurumuhi, and Parmanpur under the Khwaspur panchayat (village council) have already converted to Sikhism. They have set up a gurdwara with support of the Shiromani Gurdwara Parbandhak Committee (SGPC), while some Sikhs from New Delhi are helping them to maintain it.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=25333


--- IANS
 

A VILLAGE OF AMRITDHARIS (this time Punjab)

PANTHIC.ORG  | Published on December 12, 2007

Amritdhari Residents of the Chabrewal Village
Rupnagar, Nurpur Bedi (KP) -  Recently, a local Punjabi newspaper published an inspiring article about a particular Punjab village in the foothills of the Shivaliks that has rapidly accepting the Sikhi way of live, en masse - a trend that is opposite of what is happening in rest of Punjab.  Perhaps this unique village can inspire others accross Punjab to return to their Sikhi roots.
Village Chabrewal is a small village in Nurper Bedi situated in the hills of Shivalik.  Because of its small size, this village goes unnoticed by the rest of the world and it enjoys a simple lifestyle--remaining aloof from worldly facilities and luxuries.  During one time, this village, which is mostly populated with the people of the Gujjar clan, was known for its people’s smoking and drinking habits--but now, it has been completely transformed by conversions of people who have chosen to adopt the Sikh faith.  Amritdhari men and women can be spotted easily upon entering the village.
The population of this village remains scarce, at about 250, but Mela Ram has now become Mela Singh, Jog Raj has now become Jog Raj Singh and Dolat Ram has now become Dolat Singh.  At least one member of every family has taken up the Sikh way of life by adopting the path shown by Guru Gobind Singh Ji.
According to Jog Raj Singh, the Chief of this Village, Sikh influence was brought here by a person named Mela Ram.  Mela Ram, Son of Babu Ram, was the first person to be baptized into the Khalsa Panth. Afterwards, he inspired many others as well.  Not only have the ordinary villagers taken up the Sikh way of life, many of the village’s amritdharis are eminent public figures.
Prof. Jaswinder Singh who teaches religious studies at the Kalgidhar Kanea School Kahnpur Khuhi said that Baba Dalip Singh Samirowal and Baba Gurcharan Singh, who performed seva of a historical shrine relating to the life of Guru Gobind Singh Ji, played a big role in nurturing Sikhi in this village.   In addition, Sikh Missionary College (Anandpur Sahib), Baba Channan Singh Suara and Principal Prem Singh Heerpur have continued to hold Gurmat related classes for the people which have helped many people.  Jaswinder Singh said that 1999 was a crucial year for the village as during this year, a large number of people became attached to bani and bana.
This area of the Shivalik Hills has been blessed with ‘charan-choh’ (presence and touch of the Holy Lotus feet) of Guru Gobind Singh Ji.  At Gurdwara Kataar Sahib, Guru Gobind Singh Ji blessed the father of Baba Sangat Singh Ji with a kataar.  Seva of this Gurdwara Sahib was organized by Baba Labh Singh Ji who handed the control of this shrine to the Shiromani Gurdwara Parbandhak Committee.  Sikh Sangat visits this historical shrine in big numbers during the annual nangar kirtan and on special monthly programs.
(Original story appeared in the Punjabi version of Ajit)
 
RECENT NEWS of Madhya Pradesh:
 

So if you are mona you are automatically a alcoholics,  smoker, meat eater,  drug user, adulterous, perverts, prostitute? 
That's great logic or Sikh way  (sarcasm off). Unbelieveable....  I would trust a mona than religuous self righteous condescending person with kinda mindset. 

​I would go the other way with the missionaries in that they have very little knowledge of Gurbani and place no little or emphasis on spirituality. They are even against naam simran which is incredible. Nor do they see Guru Granth Sahib as a living Guru. It seems like their focus is to disrupt sikh practice, and coupled with a hindu-phobia they make themsleves look ignorant/boorish at times.
 
The traditionalists see Gurubani as living but I feel have an over emphasis on spirituality. The doctrine of Miri-Piri has become imbalanced and i meet some youths every now and again, who cannot do anything at local gurdwara because they don't do enough naam japna.
 
 

​Can we agree that logically the more potential converts lay in the Hindu religion?
It also has something to do with the way the Hindus saw us after 1947. They didn't want the Sikhs to be as we are, but to become Hindus again. They see us as Hindus, warrior Hindus, but now the threat of Islamic Persia/Middle East/Central Asia is no longer existing, they may have seen Sikhi as a past relic?
 
This make sense ?

I just feel outraged how someone can claim such BS like this. Where I used to live loads of goreh tried to start shit but once a Singh let's of a jaikaara the jackals run...
 
Dalsingh let's face it the glory days of sooormeh khalsa is long gone. People are scared,scared to get in trouble with the law or if their wife finds out. I believe there are tons of coward amritdharis, disgusting. If you can't defend yourself or others you have no right to wear a kirpan that's worse as an attacker may take the blade and use it against you. The worst paap is to let someone take your own shastar and use it against you,beisti di gal.
 
Crystal 

Maharaaj did infuse courage into ordinary people.  Quote
 On seeing the valour of Lal Chand boatman one Lal Chand sweet-meat seller picked up weapons and reached there. The Pathans knew that the first one is a boatman but the second one is a sweet-meat seller. How has he got the courage to fight?
 
Unquote [1]
[1] - Gur Balam Sakhian
Quote
 Their forces consisted of veteran soldiers and warrior Pathans.While the Sikhs constituted poor unskilled rustics, barbers and carpenters.
 Unquote [2]
[2] - Sri Gur Panth Prakash
 
Satguru jee has the power to convert cowards into hardcore warriors. One must never doubt that.
Having said the above, one must also learn shaster vidya.
Bhul chuk maaf

​'Kirpan' comes from 'Krpaan' a sanskrit term for sword...i came across this word in Saptshati Chandi Paath of Rishi Markandey
 

Piara Singh Padam in his book Rahitname says at page 35 that noRahetnma lists the five items or Kakars together. Still none of these items can be ignored. Anywhere else word Kakar is not found till after arrival of the Britsh. After the British disarmed and disbanded the Sikh army keeping arms was prohibited. Baba Ram Singh Namdhari was forced to advise his sikhs newly administered Khande Di Pahul in 1857 April to keep a Sota or thick bamboo staff instead of a Sri Sahib. Other Sikhs too resorted keeping atiny replica about two or three inches long in their turban. Ultimately in early 20th century after the Kirpan morcha British Govt. agreed only to allow a nine incches long 'Karad' that we now call a Kirpan. The actual Kirpan ordained by tenth Guru ji after Khande the Pahul was around two and a half feet minimum. So, except for a few Jathedar or Nihangs most Singhs are wearing including this writer the version of 'Kirpan' not specified by tenth Guru ji but by the British authorities.

​How do you know, Baba jee lied? It is possible that he might have received wrong information or the manuscript did exist at one point in time. 
You might be aware that there was a stone near Jagannath mandir, which narrated the sakhi about first master's visit to the temple. It was destroyed by some idiots and now it does not exist. Similarly, there was also a tree which existed in a gurudwara. The tree was uprooted and it does not exist now.
Bhul chuk maaf

​David did that "famous" elevation thing as well.
Coming onto this control of air thing, did anyone seen this Derren Brown thing when he went to the dojo and knocked students over even though he was about a foot or two away from them?
 
 

@Sher How long have you lived in Punjab? How many villages have you stayed in and for how many days? All you are doing it quote online news reports. That is not the correct way to judge how a particular society is working. I have lived in Punjab and moved around in many villages all my life. Caste observations are there but I am restricting myself to Gurdwarey issue. Its nowhere like you are portraying. 
I have been dragged into endless arguments online where people like you keep on coming up with online links and talk out of no practical ground knowledge. I remember a hindu guy from England who had seemingly endless online and he would quote chapters and chapters trying to prove that Hinduism was the best religion and the vedantic spirituality was the highest point in world spirituality and so on and so forth. He himself had never even once visited India! And I tried to counter him saying that Hindu society was very oppresive towards lower castes and that they had trampled over the lower castes for thousands of years. But he would refute my arguments and come up with online links and chapters and chapters of books. I used to wonder how much time and energy he had to do such online research. I gave up. And you know what happened? He had been talking for a while about trying to find a Guru for himself in India. He made a journey and stayed with his relatives in Delhi. He visited some teerth asthaans. He kept up his journalling on the forums. And what turned out? All his illusion about the India society and its glorious vedic ideals turned out to be false. He then started condemning common Indian Hindus and called them as unread and uneducated and this and that. He still would not accept that his utopian ideas based solely on his online reading and offline books were wrong in the first place. He just took to blame Indian Hindu masses for their Intelligence and understanding.
 
I am feeling that this present conversation is going to take a similar direction. I hardly ever post on these forums because in this present times of Kaljug version 2.0 (reloaded) even a smallest spark can start a wildfire; everyone is ready to argue and fight. I shall drop the topic here. I have said that as far as visiting gurdwarey is concerned and partaking in langar, the situation is nowhere as is being presented by you. I say this based on real life experience of 40 years in Panjab. I do not need to study any report online to make a judgement. Yes the caste observations are there but I commented on Gurdwarey situation.

​Yes but the moghals refered to all non-muslims as hindus. the word hindu did not have the same connotation  as it does now.
​the udasis were absent arms and hence able to perform this sewa. the Dal Panth was not.
 

​What does the quote prove? The sehajdahris were required at some stage to take amrit and commit formally to Khalsa rehat. Not to spend their whole lives absent rehat and claiming to be sehajdhari.
If anything the quote seems to be exactly the thing to spur on sehajdharis to strengthen their sikhi.

​Sher, how long have you been on this forum? I'm sure that you know by know not to misrepresent Gurbani here.