SikhKhoj

"The extant text of Rehatnama Chaupa Singh is a conflation of at least three different sources. It cannot be the work of a single author. The manuscript evidence points to a text
comprising of four parts: the preface, a set of prescriptions of conduct, a narrative of Guru Gobind Singh's life, and a string of transgressions that need to be punished. The core of the text is constituted of the preface and the part that follows it, while the remaining two sections were appended later. The counting of the sentences in the section that follows the preface was eventually extended to the appended parts, creating the impression that they were always part of a single whole."

We need to settle the above issue first, ascertain which the real Chaupa Singh rehat is and then discuss its contents. Seems nearly impossible because we have near to no scholars left in our nation. Only people who argue on trivial matters and look down people not following the same Rehat.

Singh123...:
"Guru Tegh Bahadur carried shaster"
Do you have any particular sources? I have not found this yet but it could be well possible.
And btw, there is a strong oral tradition that Guru Nanak Ji taught Shaster vidya to Baba Buddha who in turn taught Guru Hargobind Sahib. Are there any written sources for this?

Respect is given on basis of merit, one of the descendants of Guru Nanak, Khem Singh Bedi tried to become a Guru. He sat parallel to Guru Granth Sahib. So would you respect him just because he is an descendant?

Guru Nanak Jis sons weren't given Gurgaddi, means being son/daughter of Guru is not enough. It is the Karams and Sidhaant that count.

There are some descendants of Guru Nanak near Dera Baba Nanak. I heard there are descendants of Guru Angad too.

Guru Hargobind killed Painde Khan but also shielded him so he could remember Allah. He did both Baba Deep Singh and Bhai Kanhaiyas job.

We ought to preserve the Gurdwaras of historical importance. May sound harsh but the normal local Gurdwaras shouldn't be our priority.

We should help by making people from NWFP (10,000 Sikhs) move to Punjab, like Gen Zia Ul Haq when he reopened Panja Sahib etc.

Besides that, we should focus on the Sehajdhari Sindhis who can adopt full Sikhi and also move to Punjab, because that is potential too. Because as you said, Gurdwaras without Sikhs is not ... right. We hardly have 20,000 sikhs in Pakistan and half of them live scattered around NWFP (which doesnt have that many Gurdwaras compared to Punjab). So we should help them and FATA sikhs (who have to pay monthly Jizya to taliban) to move to Pak Punjab different parts and take part in upkeeping the Gurdwaras.

SGPC won't, Takhts won't nor will most Sampardas. It is Khojis like you & amardeep that need to get started on this. Somehow. Maybe a 'mass collaboration' with like minded people under guidance of some professors. Don't know about the funding though, travel to search for and inspect manuscripts will take both time and money (and dedication).
 
 

Fascinated? lol. low standards

Pritpal Singh Bindra died last month. No news about it, seems like no one cared. He was very dedicated and translated a lot of important texts into English: Bhai Nand Lals work, the Charitropakhyan, Guru Kian Sakhian, Bhai Gurdas Kabits.
Whatever his views were, I respect his dedication & seva. He sold his business to work for the Panth.
Akaal Purakh Bhai Bindra nu apne charna ch laave

I heard he wanted to do rishta of his daughter with some Sikh leaders son but they refused.

Anyways Ambedkar and his followers later converted to Buddhism, and there are less than 2% buddhists - that shows something. But indeed we could've gained lots of more converts to Sikhi had it not been for our moorakh leaders.

We have to talk about Sikhs here and there, the number of sangats per state because we simply do not have demographics.

Dabistan says this: "ln short during the time of each Mahal (Guru) the Sikh increased till in the reign of Guru Arjan Mal they became numerous and there were not many cities in the inhabited countries where some Sikh were not to be found."
It is an important statement. It does say 'some' Sikhs but also 'countries'. 
 
​There were many, thats the only thing we can conclude safely from the many Sangats established all over India. The Sangats established by Guru Nanak and later the Manjis were quite widespread, information is available about many but many have since been converted into temples and other things. SS Kohli who visited nearly whole of India in the footsteps of Guru Nanaks udasis met lacs of Nanakpanthis all over India in the 1960s. I'll be posting a quote soon.
 
Invalid point. Starting in the 8th century, Muslims invaded and raped the Indian subcontinent for centuries. Despite 800 years of brutalities only 30-35% of the Indian population is Muslim (if you count India, Pak and Bangladesh). So just because it took 3-5 centuries for Iran or Syria to convert, you can not conclude that it wasn't mostly force. 

Since paapi, as usual, is polluting the other topic with his mindless and baseless allegations, this topic has been created. Solely for discussing the historical importance of Sahejdharis based on puratan granths, traditions and other information we have.
* Sevapanthi chiefs have always been sahejdharis. You can check their names from Bhai Kanhaiya onwards. They never became 'amritdhari'.
* Sant Gurbakh Daas was the head priest of KesGarh during the early 1700s (source: Mahan Kosh).
* Many other sahejdhari sikhs led congregations according to the remnant Hukamnmas of the Guru. In 1704, Mani Ram, a sahejdhari, was appointed as the head of congregation in Haryana (Hukamnama Guru Gobind Singh).
* Even Sau Sakhi says there are 3 type of Sikhs: khand, charan (non existent after 1708) and sahejdhari.
I have backed up my every claim by quotes & sources. Come back with historical proofs and don't quote Desa Singh Rehatnama because I am sure people like you drink sharab and then quote Desa Singh Rehat.
 

SikhSangat is a site for beginners (and moorakhs). They got some strange rules. They go like we support Dasam Granth because Akal Takth says so but then they are anti-meat, while Akal Takht Rehat allows us to consume Jhatka.

I have read that post you mention. Was quite sick to write something like that. I don't like this gender equality getting into everything.

I agree but I feel that AKJ/Taksal stance is taking over Sikhi overall in west. And when they don't agree with others they threaten them.

Typical Saadh making up rehats & contradicting Gurbani. I don't know when our people will open their eyes, evaluate so called traditions on the touch stone of Gurbani and reject the anti Gurmat traditions that have crept into our faith post Guru Gobind Singhs Joti Jot.
Guru Granth Sahib is above every Rehat(nama), other 'ithasik' Granths & 'puratan' traditions out there.

ਮਃ ੧ ॥
First Mehl:
ਜਿਉ ਜੋਰੂ ਸਿਰਨਾਵਣੀ ਆਵੈ ਵਾਰੋ ਵਾਰ ॥
As a woman has her periods, month after month,
ਜੂਠੇ ਜੂਠਾ ਮੁਖਿ ਵਸੈ ਨਿਤ ਨਿਤ ਹੋਇ ਖੁਆਰੁ ॥
so does falsehood dwell in the mouth of the false; they suffer forever, again and again.
ਸੂਚੇ ਏਹਿ ਨ ਆਖੀਅਹਿ ਬਹਨਿ ਜਿ ਪਿੰਡਾ ਧੋਇ ॥
They are not called pure, who sit down after merely washing their bodies.
ਸੂਚੇ ਸੇਈ ਨਾਨਕਾ ਜਿਨ ਮਨਿ ਵਸਿਆ ਸੋਇ ॥੨॥
Only they are pure, O Nanak, within whose minds the Lord abides. ||2||

I see too many hippy Sikhs rejecting Sikhis missionary spirit nowadays. Perhaps they should familiarize themselves with the concepts of Manjis, preachers set out by the Gurus to different parts in Asia & the countless references in Gurbani to 'aap japeh avreh naam japavai' & other tuks hinting towards the need of telling people about the truth.

Our way of 'preaching' differs in the sense that we not claim exclusivity to the Truth, nor do we apply force to gain converts (Islam) nor do we bribe people to change their religions (Islam & Christianity). We also do not take advantages of natural disasters to spread our religion either because we believe in Nishkam Seva (Christian missionaries were rejoicing at the current Nepal disaster because it was 'a God given oppertunity to bless Nepalis with Christs message').

Paapi, on one hand you claim to be a Taksal and Bhindranwale lover and believer in Dasam Granth but on the other hand you are respecting Muhammad. Gurbachan Singh clearly says in his Katha that Muhammad stole the Quran from a Hindu Sadhu. How can a thief be a prophet?
Satkirin, don't let 2 individuals influence your view that Sikhi does not believe in equality for men and women. I don't know why you keep coming up with that because historically and theologically this gender discrimination is not part of our faith.

1. Post 20th century the Singh Sabha mindset has hurt the 'Sikh' numbers by sidelining and ignoring the Sehajdharis and Nanakpanthis.
For example: There was  a time when nearly all non Muslim Sindhis were Nanakpanthis, but the radicalisation post Singh Sabha made them move away. Ofcourse many of them also venerated Jhule Lal besides Guru Nanak Ji but still.
Years ago I was also shocked at the 2001 census having only 20k Sikhs for Bihar, the birth place of Guru Gobind Singh. But since I have discovered that Bihar once had a quite significant population of Sikhs (Nanakpanthis), which withered due to our own neglect and partly the Udasi sadhus 'reverting' to Hinduism post SGPC to prevent their Dharamshalas from getting under SGPC control.
Even today some indigenous Sikhs of Bihar can be found near Lakhmipur and other areas visited by Guru Tegh Bahadur.
2. I also used to believe that most Sikhs inhabiting foreign countries were of Punjabi descent, but I think a critical reading of the Janamsakhis is needed to ascertain this. The person who gave the elephant to Guru Gobind Singh Ji was a native Assami King, his ancestors having converted at the times of Guru Nanak.  The Raja Shivnabh of Sri Lanka also converted. More than a hundred Nanakpanthi native Arab families existed in 1930, Sikh since Guru Nanaks times (source: Mushtaq Hussain alias Prithpal Singh). Remember Salas Rai Johri the jeweller? His descendants are Nanakpanthis but in dire need of parchaar just like many other tribes and people but our SGPC is doing nothing, in a few generations they will also be back to Hinduism. Bihar used to have above 300 Dharamshalas, all with native Bihari Sikhs, such as Bhai Bhagwan during Guru Har Rais time (ex Buddhist).
While one may not take this statement too seriously but the Dabistan also talks of Sikhs living in most corners of the world. But you could argue that it talked of Punjabi Sikhs, which I doubt but fair enough.
3. So from the above we can assume that lots of non Punjabi Sikhs used to exist. But where did they all go?
a) reverted back over generations due to lack of parchaar, just as we are seeing right now with Johris.
b) many of them were not in Khalsa form and thus were neglected
 
4. We did not forcibly convert others. While forcing is the un Sikh way, I wish more was done to convert non Sikhs during the Misl and Ranjit Singh Kaal, but sadly we are too secular... We are even butt hurt at ex Sikh Christians returning back to Sikhi to avoid political disturbances in Punjab. This explains why we are only 10-20% of the total Punjabi population.
5. Indian census is not reliable, they do not count poor tribal Sikhs as Sikhs, who are atleast 2-3 million in number. Search for Sikligar, Vanjara, Lobana, Johri, etc.
 
 

We haven't forgotten Chota and Vadda Ghalughara which happened 250 years ago, how can we forget this Teeja Ghalughara which happened 25 years ago?

Have they forgotten 93 and Taj Attack 2008? Why don't they forgive Kasab and move on?

^ That. Like Kesar Singh who CHANGED the first Amrit Sanchar ceremony narration to fit in his grandfather putting patasey in Khande di Pahul. And that is an early, 1769 source ;)
Or how several authors have linked historical figures to their own got (gotra) to big up their communities (RE: discussion on Mani Singh Shaheed).
Instead of getting excited like a nav viahio tivi try to analyse the source

British (amongst others) corrupted the Sau Sakhi, its a known fact. Said to be written by Sahib Singh from Raam Koers narration, most Sau Sakhis differ to each other in content due to different people corrupting versions at different times, i.e. the Naamdharis to justify their Guru, the Maharaja Dalip Singh supporters corrupted it with a prophecy of him returning, etc. Different people added different things to it over time, and you can see different Samvats (years) in the work. The work, or earlier versions, were relied upon by many writers such as Kavi Santokh Singh though.

Some people used to claim it was written by Guru Gobind Singh but Bhai Kahan Singh Nabha refuted this.

And yes it is said it was Panj Sau Sakhi, but divided into five and given to different Singhs.

He has some valid points and did dig out interesting information, but some of his 'findings' are imaginary and far fetched.

He did some good research on Guru Nanaks central Africa visit (which is a big possibilty since the Guru did visit as far as Egypt) and some other points. Also Puratan Granths do confirm the Gurus visits to Habh Desh (central Africa).

Now if we see that the Guru was in Baghdad around 1511 and came back to Punjab around 1521 we wonder what the Guru did so many years in those Arab countries? It is sad, that with an exception of a few incidents, not much is known about the Gurus visits to the east (or even other parts of the world).
We have a handful of Sakhis about the middle east while the Guru is reported to have stayed there for a few years.

(The memorial in Turkey has been proven to not have mentioned Nanak but Khanakh.)

I have found an internal error, I am pretty sure that this is fake.

BTW another line which seems recent

"ਜਾਗੇ ਪਹਿਲੇ ਪਹਰ ਮਾਹੀ ਦਾ ਦੀਦਾਰ ਹੋ ਗਿਆ "

Dal yes I meant transcribe, I use something very unprofessional - Google Transliterate (haha). Yes, I will post more scans just got some things going in personal life.

1. Jaat doesn't only mean caste, it has several other meanings in gurmat; creation, personality (ਸ਼ਖ਼ਸੀਯਤ) etc.
2. I found the amoorat very interesting aswell, it negates moorat by putting a in front. Didn't find it in Dasam Granth.
3. ਵੇ, ਭਰਮੇਯ and ਕਰਤੇਯ weren't found in the Dasam Granth.
4. No ਤਰਹਿ & ਤਰਾਵੈ in Dasam Granth. Closest I found was: ਉਤਰਹਿ and ਤਰਹਿਗੇ.

Chatanga, yes I have the whole text.
Fateh spelling is interesting indeed, even 'sri satguru ji ki fate hai' isn't that common. "the single letter of "n" to denote na" yes , just like in Jaap Sahib for example.

The rest later, when I have more free time. Analyse it meanwhile Dal

Yes it is highly inspired from Dasam Granth

Yes DalSingh you are right. For example older Granths tend to use ਵਾਹਗੁਰੂ , but we can't know for sure what the original text said because sihari bihari mistakes are mde while copying, still we will try. I will post more but I am somewhat busy these weeks, I will definitely post more from this granth by the end of this month, but when I transliterate it, the sihari biharis get lost and I can't get them in properly, any tips?


Well Chatanga veer, esp the line B seemed somewhat modern. The work has been highly influenced by Dasam Granth but that doesn't make it authentic does it. Sometimes it feels as if the writer forces Dasam Granth language or Puratan language just to show off its 'authenticity'.

The thing is that this manuscript would have been written between 1699 and 1704, and there are no other texts we could compare this too. There is the Gur Sobha which some place in 1711, but others place that in 1741, same for Parchian Seva Das. What book do we compare this to (language wise)?

Guru Nanak Patshah says in Bani:
ਗਣਤ ਗਣੀਐ ਸਹਸਾ ਦੁਖੁ ਜੀਐ ॥
ਗੁਰ ਕੀ ਸਰਣਿ ਪਵੈ ਸੁਖੁ ਥੀਐ
Astrological calculations about one's future create suspense or sorrow in one's heart;
But by seeking the Guru's refuge, one always remains in peace and comfort.