If an amritdhari

[Mystical]

I found something from here.

His Khalsa, like him was to fight against all forms of religious bigotry and political tyranny. In Sarbloh Guru Durbar, Akali Nihang Guru Gobind Singh speaks of the ten virtues to be adopted by the Akali Nihang Singh Khalsa warrior and ten vices to be abandoned.

Ten Guna (Virtues) of Akali Nihang Singh Khalsa:

1. Compassion

2. Charity

3. Forgiveness

4. Cleanliness

5. Control of mind

6. Purity

7. Appreciation of truth

8. Spiritually accomplished being

9. Warrior

10. Devotee of God and none other

Ten Oguna (Vices) that the Akali Nihang Singh Khalsa must avoid:

1. Mentality against contemplation and meditation

2. Indiscriminate violence

3. False pride

4. Laziness

5. Miserliness

6. Heartlessness

7. Stupidity

8. Wearing dirty clothes

9. Impurity

10. Evil heart.

The Akali Nihang Singh Khalsa was to be a spiritual warrior of Akal (immortal God). Bhai Nand Lal Goya, the personal scribe of Guru Gobind Singh, defined the Khalsa thus:

‘Khalsa is he who forsakes slander.

Khalsa is he who fights at the vanguard.

Khalsa is he who slays the five [ie. controls lust, wrath, greed, false attachment and ego].

Khalsa is he who burns [destroys] superstition.

Khalsa is he who forsakes [overcomes the trappings of] ego.

Khalsa is he who runs from another’s woman [abstains from adultery].

Khalsa is he who does not look at another’s woman.

Khalsa is he who is absorbed in God’s name.

Khalsa is he who obeys the Guru’s word.

Khalsa is he who takes the weapon blows on his face [meaning fights at the vanguard].

Khalsa is he who nurtures the poor.

Khalsa is he who destroys evil beings.

Khalsa is he who contemplates God’s name.

Khalsa is he who attacks the Malesh [meaning 'the filthy', ie. Moghal armies of Aurangzeb].

Khalsa is he who attaches others to Nirankar God's name.

Khalsa is he who breaks all restraints [of caste, superstition, ignorance, etc.].

Khalsa is he who rides the war horse.

Khalsa is he who wages war [both the external and internal war against his own mind].

Khalsa is he who bears weapons.

Khalsa is he who kills the evil one.’

(‘Rehitnameh’, Piara Singh Padam, Pa.59)

http://www.sarbloh.info/htmls/guru_akalinihang.html

[Kavita]

doesn't answer my question. Common sense is very subjective and depends on culture and society. Common sense among Aztecs and Mayas meant that human sacrifices were ok. Common sense among Romans made slavery and gladiator fights normal. Common sense cannot be used when it comes to divine laws because it is not universally valid. Either the codes are complete or they're not.

So I am still waiting for an answer...

[amardeep]

people are still not answering the question.

if i take amrit, and i beat up my wife and worship several Gods, am i still considered a member of the Brotherhood, or am i a tanakhana then?

[Xylitol]

read Gurbani. All answers to those Q's are in there. searching yourself will increase your gian of Bani.

[Kavita]

Gurbani does not give rules for the khalsa. I am asking per the codes used by the Panth. Is an amritdhari who killed his father still part of the khalsa as long as he doesn't commit the bajjar kurahits?

Why is it so difficult to answer such a question. It's not like this situation hasn't happened before.

[ds123]

Kavati Ji,

Why are you so worried about this question if you are not even a sikh?

No Offence Inteded.

[Kavita]

I am asking a simple question. So does amardeep. what I am or who I am is of no importance. It's a simple question. If you guys can't answer to it then there is a problem...

[Xylitol]

i've already answered your question.

it IS written in Bani.

if that's not good enough than feel free to try to raise controversy over absolutely nothing elsewhere.

[Matheen]

Kavita & Amardeep - No, they aren't still part of the Khalsa.

[amardeep]

thank you matheen.

now killing ones father or worshipping idols, beating up your wife, stealing and cheating is not one of the Bujjar kurehits, so what is the importance of labeling haram halal hajamat hukah as Bujar Kurehit, if you'll still become a tankhana by doing these other mentioned things?

[Kavita]

Matheen on which grounds do you claim they are not part of the Khalsa if they haven't broken any bajjar kurahit? Please provide reference from rahit maryada.

[DSG]

Let me add these are my opions only may be wrong may be right ,

firstly i believe the question you asked is a hyperthetical question because

1. Not everyone is blessed in being a khalsa , not everyone believes in God , not everyone practices religion.

2. The people who practice there religion , have something telling them inside , this is the path for them and then seek further knowledge by reading literature , doing 'path' , taking amirt etc..

3. When one enters the religious path , he/she would not beat up his wife/husband , idol worship, stealing etc.. unless the person is only a sikh from the outside and not within.

A person born into a sikh family does not make him/her a sikh , they have to be baptised , follow and practice the Gurus teaching

[Kavita]

We are talking about rahit maryada not ethics. The SGPC president Jagir Kaur murdered her own pregnant daughter and she still is part of the Khalsa Panth. She has not committed any of the bajjar kurahit. So please provide me textual evidence from the rahitname that says that a thief or murderer could be excluded from the Panth. It's not a difficult question.

[karmjeet]

Dear Amardeep and Kavita,

The word "Khalsa " is a stage that all of us strive to reach or achieve. The Khalsa itself means the purest of the pure.

By Becoming an Amritdhari and just avoiding the 4 Bajjar Kurejits one doesn't become a Khalsa. There are other qualities that He need to have.

There is a shabad by Guru Gobind Singh Ji where he mentions all the prerequisites in order to be considered a Khalsa. Can please someone post that shabad ?

Once you read that Shabad your queries will be answered.

[karmjeet]

http://www.gurmatveechar.org/audio/katha/0...rega.Khalsa.mp3

In the above mentioned Katha , Sant Kartar Singh Ji of Damdami Taksal clearly explains who is a Khalsa, here he also mentions the Shabad that I was talking about.

And ya Bibi Jagir Kaur is not a khalsa , u will find out urself after listening to that Katha...

[Kavita]

Again I am not talking about ethics. I am talking practical codes and laws. Please provide quote from rahit maryada.

[Guest]

Again I am not talking about ethics. I am talking practical codes and laws. Please provide quote from rahit maryada.

May i ask "kavita" where are those pratical code and laws derived from? Most of them if not all derived from gurbani, so source of all pratical code and laws in essence are from gurbani.

According to gurbani-

Here is an example of sikh from gurbani, guru ji giving updesh to jaigaso:

Gur Satgur Ka Jo Sikh Akhaai So Bhalke Uth Har Naam Dhiyawai.

Udham Kare Bhalke Parbhati Isnan Kare Amritsar Naawai.

Updes Guru Har Har Jap Jaape Sabh Kilwikh Pap Dokh Leh Jaawai.

Phir Chare Diwas Gurbani Gaawai Behndean Uthdean Har Naam Dhiyawai.

Jo Sas Giras Dhiyae Mera Har Har So Gur Sikh Guru Man Bhaawai.

Jis No Dyal Howai Mera Soami Tis Gursikh Guru Updesh Sunawai.

Jan Nanak Dhur Mange Tis Gur Sikh Ki Jo Aap Jape Awreh Naam Japaawai. (305)

===

Here is an example of khalsa from gurbani (sri sarbloh granth), guru ji describing khalsa:

Atam Ras Neh Jannehi Sio Haie Khalsa Dev,

Prab Meh Mo Meh Tas Meh Ranchak Naeh Bhaid(v) ||

The one who has entered the sphere of atma(self), he alone is worthy of the title of the khalsa, he becomes one with me the guru and ultimately God.There is no difference.

Khalsa and sikh are two different terms if we do vichar on those two quotes, above quote- guru is giving updesh to sikh, if you wish to be called sikh of the guru, get up in amritvela and recite naam on amrit vela, do udham(try). I dont think above quote is refer to khalsa who is been described as atamrassaie in 2nd quote because atamgyani/atamrasaie/bhramgyani already tasted atam ras, amrit ras and is fully imbued in naam, there is noo need for him/her to udham or get up, gurmukh samadhi in atam ras is nirodh is ever lasting, naam is running 24/7- rom rom har dhavaie.

No where it mentions defination of sikh or khalsa being rapist, child murder, wife beater, father killer.

Most of the maryada if not all parts in rehitnamas in the panth today are made on Gurbani Sidhant. I agree there are many parts of rehitnamas which are shady, I dont think there is single jatha or samparda or panth as a whole consider the whole content of rehitnamas as gospel truth, stuff from rehitnamas are weighed first by looking at the gurbani sidhant from gurbani if its matches gurmat its parvan in sri akaal takth sahib maryada if its not then its not. Rehitnamas i would say is same like hadits written by devotees and should not be taken as face value, all the rehitnamas should be first weighed based on gurbani sidhant fetched from sri guru granth sahib ji, sri dasam granth, sri sarbloh granth, bhai gurdas ji varan, bhai nand lal ji.

so kavita ji, i know your intentions, i see you, you see me, you will be exposed very shortly if you keep posting your chamelon/crafty/malice like posts on this forum.

[Matheen]

How can practical codes and laws be fair without ethics?

You've been provided with all the answers, the rest is up to you. If you choose to remain blinded by your misconceptions, then no one can help you. As I'm certain you know, Gurbani is the main guiding force for us - even a cursory glance would show you that the people you mention cannot be considered Khalsa.

Panth means "Way" not quom, if you deviate from the way then you're not part of the Panth - it's simple really.

Also don't forget that the 5 Pyare CAN LOOK AT INDIVIDUAL CASES AND MAKE A DECISION TAKING INTO ACCOUNT CIRCUMSTANCES - something a written code wouldn't allow. If you're looking for a Sharia in Sikhi, you won't find it - thank God - and i hope it remains that way.

Your refusal to see the answer to your question is shocking.

[Xylitol]

"what is the importance of labeling haram halal hajamat hukah as Bujar Kurehit, if you'll still become a tankhana by doing these other mentioned things?"

this is probably the first question you've asked that's not totally inane. lets use the example of tobacco. in Giani Thakur Singh ji's katha he discussed how Muslims conquered India. He said that they were afraid of the Bhramins' powers. in order to destroy those powers they flooded India with tobacco. They tricked people, making it fashionable to use tobacco. Used other means as well. By the use of tobaco, their kamai(spiritual earnings) and their powers were destroyed.

The normal human intellect cannot comprehend the damage caused by tobacco, or the wrongness of it. But of course, we all know the wrongness of killing our father (Gurbani explicitly tells us to respect our parents) or killing our daughter (Kurimar is listed in rahit as a huge sin-such persons are apostate and khalsa is not allowed to associate with them). Hopefully that answers your questions and makes their absurdity patently clear. Although I recognise that the above one is actually decent.

[Kavita]

No need to expose me you all know who I am. You don't answer amardeep's or my questions. I asked a very simple question.to which you don't seem to able to reply.

I did not talk about ethics. We all know that someone who would kill his father would go to hell and is deemed a sinner by the Guru. Fine we all know that. Doesn't take a Nobel Prize to know that.

I am talking about law, jurisprudence and organisation and where authority is derived from. One set of panj pyare may say one thing and anothe rset another thing.

I am asking for textual evidence.Where does it state in the rahit maryada that a fault other than the bajjar kurahit could get one kicked out of the Panth?

It's a simple question and I think it deserves a reply. Who I am (you all know who I am btw) does not matter here. Answer the question if you please and stop avoiding the issue by accusing me of this and that. Why is it that you don't accuse amardeep? After all he is the one who started the thread...

[Matheen]

Did you even read the answers given above?

[commander]

Gurbani does not give rules for the khalsa. I am asking per the codes used by the Panth. Is an amritdhari who killed his father still part of the khalsa as long as he doesn't commit the bajjar kurahits?

Why is it so difficult to answer such a question. It's not like this situation hasn't happened before.

What about mother, sister, brother aunt, etc.? What about any other human being? What if the killing was justified (such as in self-defense)? Do you want a separate criminal code? What's the point of living as part of society then?

[Kavita]

The answers you all provided deal with ethics and that's all fine and dandy but I was talking from a point of view of jurisprudence, law and sources of authority. The panj pyare argument doesn't make sense because it is highly subjective. We all know the anecdote of the guy who was told by the panj pyare of the Bhai Randhir Singh jatha to stop eating meat. Later on the Nihang panj pyare came along and ordered him to eat meat. Two set of panj pyare gave two different verdicts to the same person.

I am asking a simple question of jurisprudence.

[kirpa_karo]

kuri maar isnt a bajjar kurehat yet your a tankhaaheeyaa if you do it or even keep company of people who do it!

[Kavita]

Good start kirpa_karo. Finally someone who provides and answer.It's a good example.

A tankhaya has to apologize and do seva or pay a fine to get back into the Panth. But a patit who commited one of the bajjar kurahit has to take amrit again.

So curring your hair is worse than killing your daughter?

No offense intended. This is an abstract discussion about an issue of jurisprudence.