NoorKaur Posted September 24, 2008 Report Share Posted September 24, 2008 Fateh I really want to take Amrit, but over years of conversations with people who tried to dissuade me from Sikhism, I have many doubts. I can't be sure because during my research I find very few references in the Rehitnaama's and various Rehits regarding Sikh women. Their dress, their manner, whether they should be given Kirpan-da-Amrit, there's so much confusion. Some people have told me the giving of Khande da amrit was part of a movement started by Singh Sabha. I wish there wasnt so many Rehits, its hard enough making the choice without all these divisions between the Sikh community. Can anyone please provide me with some information about Sikh women, their role and evidence for their initiation? I have been told this forum is full of knowledgeable people and I put my hope in them. Im literally losing it because I just want to be strong in my beliefs before my kids grow up and are as confused as I am! Thankyou in advance Gurfateh 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mit Posted September 24, 2008 Report Share Posted September 24, 2008 NoorKaur, There is no need to have any doubts. below there are a few links that may help you: http://www.sikhnet.com/video/the-feminine-aspect-gurbani www.sikhwomen.com. Mit 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaheediyan Posted September 24, 2008 Report Share Posted September 24, 2008 Singh Sabha theory is not wrong. Even though they have much to account for - there is clearcut evidence (via European observation) that Amrit was administered by Khande to women also (in early 1800's). This evidence does not however have any bearing on 1699 etc. You need to stop getting stuck in the detail. 10th Master gave Gur-Gaddi to Khalsa Panth as well as Guru Granth. Religion evolves, as long as it doesn't condradict the core doctrine, there isn't a problem. 90% of Sampradai/Panth give Khande da amrit - so be happy, have full faith in Guru and live your dream and fullfill your destiny. Taking amrit and rehit are only teh 1st steps - not the final steps - once you have done this - you will start a long journey of seva, simran, kirtan, learning, teaching.... May God give you strength and wisdom, but most of all faith, in your journey. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matheen Posted September 24, 2008 Report Share Posted September 24, 2008 The reason you don't find many references specific to women is that 'Sikh' applies to both genders. Rehat is for both men and women. Even the Buddha Dal are going back to Khande Da Pahul for women rather that Kirpan-Da-Amrit. Stay away from sangat that creates doubt and stick to Sangat that has pyaar and faith in Guru Ji. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unbreakable Posted September 24, 2008 Report Share Posted September 24, 2008 .. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amardeep Posted September 24, 2008 Report Share Posted September 24, 2008 As far as i know, there is not a single mentioning of Kirpan da amrit in any rehitnama. Even in hazur sahib i talked to some of the sewadaars and they also said they dont understand nor believe in kirpan da amrit. Prem Sumarag Granth regards women as equals and they are given khande di pahul... Khande di pahul is mentioned in the 41. vaar of "Bhai Gurdass" so it is a historical fact that it was in use in the early days of the Khalsa, ie started by Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj- and not by singh sabha later on. Dont confuse yourself with to much research on various issues. its better to practice sikhi for one day, than to use your entire life just reading about it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fatehsingh Posted September 25, 2008 Report Share Posted September 25, 2008 amardeep can you confirm that Hazur Sahib has now adopted both Jhatka in langar as well as Khande Da Pahul for women? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matheen Posted September 25, 2008 Report Share Posted September 25, 2008 amardeep can you confirm that Hazur Sahib has now adopted both Jhatka in langar as well as Khande Da Pahul for women? I know there is no Jhatka in the main Langar of Sachkhand ( a few months ago anyway) and yes, Khande Da Pahul is given to both men and women. Taruna Dal had already gone back to this and Baba Joginder Singh Ji of Budha Dal are for it as well. They have also got rid of caste discrimination that had crept into the Amrit Sanchars. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amardeep Posted September 25, 2008 Report Share Posted September 25, 2008 Kirpan da amrit does not seem to be mentioned for women in any rehitnama so its origins are quite spurious. I talked to some of the sewadaars of hazur sahib and they told me that they did'n understand the reason for giving kirpan da amrit themselves. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaheediyan Posted September 25, 2008 Report Share Posted September 25, 2008 http://www.amritworld.com/main/articles/kirpan_da_amrit/ 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fatehsingh Posted September 25, 2008 Report Share Posted September 25, 2008 Amardeep, According to Suraj Parkash and pracheen Panth Parkash, there was no such thing as a Khande Da Pahul. Guru Gobind Singh is said to have used a Kirpan, which he received from the Goddess at Naina Devi, to prepare the first Amrit. So it was technically a Kirpan da Amrit. I'm surprised the sewadaars you spoke to did not pick up on that. The so called 41st vaar is not accepted by Namdharis as Gurbani on par with Bhai Gurdas' Vaars (certified/approved by Guru Hargobind Sahib) so I cannot comment on that. Thanks for that link Shaheediyan, but Maryadas on various historical Takhats that are now SGPC controlled have been changing (not necessarily a bad thing) so what was written or believed at the time that article was written may be different now. Matheen, Are the caretakers of the Aswara Sahibs and Shasters also bibeki & vegetarians when you were there? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matheen Posted September 25, 2008 Report Share Posted September 25, 2008 Fatehsingh Ji, Suraj Parkash is not accurate in many places and Kavi Ji himself states that he has written what he heard and there may be mistakes. I (and I'm sure you feel the same) don't want to get into a Naamdhari vs Sikh debate but I acknowledge that Naamdharis have different beliefs. As far as I know Jathedar Kuldeep Singh Ji are bibeki and vegetarian. Don't know about the others. By the way, topic of thread is "Sikh Women" ......... we've taken it far off-topic, lol! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amardeep Posted September 25, 2008 Report Share Posted September 25, 2008 Khande di pahul is mentioned in various early rehitname as well as the vaar of "Bhai Gurdass" which is also a 18.century document. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DTF Posted September 25, 2008 Report Share Posted September 25, 2008 I believe Kirpan-da –Amrit was created by Hazoori Singhs as a necessity. The local women, whom the Singhs had to marry, were not as cultured in Sikh tradtion as the generational Punjabi Bibia. Since the women could not observe the full maryada, the Singhs modified the amrit ceremony for them. This allowed the singhs to marry a “sikhni†while at the same time upholding the sanctity of the full maryada Amrit sanchar ceremony, which was not being fulfilled with the local women being less observant after receiving the Amrit. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guv Posted September 25, 2008 Report Share Posted September 25, 2008 Prem Sumarag Granth regards women as equals and they are given khande di pahul... Re-read Prem Sumarag and you'll see there's a huge difference between the way the khande di pahul is prepared for men and the way it is for women. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chatanga1 Posted September 25, 2008 Report Share Posted September 25, 2008 Did Guru Gobind Singh receive a kirpan from Naina Devi? ive never ever read or heard of her appearance in this episode. What is objectionable about the 41st vaar, brother fateh singh, that naamdharis dont believ it? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amardeep Posted September 25, 2008 Report Share Posted September 25, 2008 Yes the ceremony is different, but its still given with a Khanda 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matheen Posted September 25, 2008 Report Share Posted September 25, 2008 Did Guru Gobind Singh receive a kirpan from Naina Devi? ive never ever read or heard of her appearance in this episode. It's a very doubtful, even insulting, story but some people believe it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fatehsingh Posted September 26, 2008 Report Share Posted September 26, 2008 Chatanga, Not hi-jacking the topic any furhter I would just quickly conclude that writers such as Saroop Das Bhalla etc have written that the Kachera was mathatek by Hanuman etc., so similarly the Kirpan was offered (in no way insulting as all deities are below the Satguru unless you're hindu-phobic) to Guru Gobind Singh. Instead of wasting kilobytes on here better finish reading the pracheen Panth Parkash you started and you will get the answer. Also see the pdf version of Suraj Parkash on the rarasahib.org site. No historical work is perfect but it is important to keep in mind that the writers had strived to write what they knew to the best of their abilities. As for 41st vaar, the author is some unknown character referred to as only some 'premi' in Mahan Kosh. How his work became part of the current compilation of Vaars is something that should be thoroughly investigated. Now back to the main topic, the Singh Sabha Sikhs started baptizing women by Khande Da Pahul in around 1898 or sometime around that (40-42 years after Namdharis did). Regardless, it is something that is necessary and all those who take the plunge deserve much respect. So my 1 cent would be to not get stuck up in history of Maryada, choose one path and stick o it! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoorKaur Posted September 26, 2008 Author Report Share Posted September 26, 2008 Lol....Im so confused!!!!!!!...again :S 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaheediyan Posted September 26, 2008 Report Share Posted September 26, 2008 Your missing the point bhenji, read my original point. You will not find an historically perfect answer - you can't in any faith - there are competing histories in all faith groups. As I said - understand the hukum of Guru Granth and Guru Panth - Akaal is in control of all - have faith in 10th Masters legacy and the Panj Pyare. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoorKaur Posted September 26, 2008 Author Report Share Posted September 26, 2008 Fateh, Veerji I understand what you said, just got lost when everyone started arguing about other things (which I still dont understand)! Just one more q...who wrote the Reht Maryada? Is it 100% accepted by everyone? (the SGPC version) and which sources were used to compile this? Thankyou again Gurfateh! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaheediyan Posted September 26, 2008 Report Share Posted September 26, 2008 Again sister, this question is not important. Various Sikhs have contributed to the Rehit Maryada over time - it has been an evolving guide - if you're really interested, read this - its' the most comprehensive research done on the subject to date. http://www.amazon.co.uk/Sikhs-Khalsa-Histo...0595&sr=8-2 The only rehit we should be concerned by - is that of the Panj Pyare - for it is them alone who represent the roop of Dasam Patshah - and they alone who speak as him. Obviously differetn jathe have slightly varying rehits i.e. AKJ instruct females to wear Keski, but you should follow take amrit from whichever jatha your heart agrees with - ultimately it makes no difference they are 90% (if not more) the same. The important journey is that which starts after you have been registered into the school of devotion. I hope other posters will stop confusing our sister, it's one thing to discuss issues which won't affect the path once one had started it and another thing if you are hindering someone elses path due to your own biased views. Bhenji, as has been said on this forum numerous times before - it's time to stop staring at the finger pointing to the moon and start looking directly at the splendor of the moon. Ultimately it's our lack of faith, commitment or prem that is to blame for our hindernace, not other peoples conflicting theories (with all due respect). 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoorKaur Posted September 26, 2008 Author Report Share Posted September 26, 2008 Thankyou, Im gonna read that book! But I cant stop with the questions just yet :S 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unbreakable Posted September 26, 2008 Report Share Posted September 26, 2008 .. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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