Meat Eating

[mit]

Hi guys!

Sorry, i know there are threads open relating to this topic, But....... in sikhi, is meat eating prohibited????

Thanks Dudes and dudettes!

[SAadmin]

This already been discussed before, just to give you recap:

According to the bhai dya singh rehitnama in khalsa panth, there are three ways of life and diet- one is for behinguman(celibate- strict satoguni diet) life style for tyagi sant, second is for gristhi (mixture of rajoguni and satoguni) and third is warrior hood- sipahi- rajoguni with tamoguni.

1. Satoguni = strict veggie diet, food with no mirch masala ideal for samadhi and bhagti.

2. Rajoguni- Strict veggie diet, food with mirch masala and other spices to live in gristhi life, I don't know about the specifics but based on puratan sadhus but there is certain rajoguni diet just to develop healthy sperm to reproduce healthy children.

3. Tamoguni - Nihangs subscribe to this diet of chatka of meat with full maryada to keep up with their warrior tradition and life style of warrior hood.

There is no set rule in the panth that in order to be warrior you would have to be non-veggie, there are many cases where soorma's were veg eg- baba sahib singh bedi, baba bir singh ji nauragabad, baba maharaj singh ji naurangabad. There are also many cases where soorma's were non veg.

What Bhai Dya singh ji rehitnama gives us is the concept of different life style/dietary parvan and understanding in the panth so that we don't bicker with each other and go around in circles. One last observation, you won't find single source of historic events where meat was even debated in panthic circle, if you look back 150 years ago. All this debate and bickering just started recently because lack of understanding.

over and out !.

[mit]

Thatnks guys! You lot are a great insparation with your knowledge. the reason i asked was because there was a debate where a fanatic singh, not mentioning names, said that anyone who ate meat would not get mukhti and that such sikhs are not welcomed in the panth. Again, i guess this is down to a lck of understanding.

thanks, God Bless and light!

[shaheediyan]

"2. Rajoguni- Strict veggie diet, food with mirch masala and other spices to live in gristhi life, I don't know about the specifics but based on puratan sadhus but there is certain rajoguni diet just to develop healthy sperm to reproduce healthy children."

N3O, what are you basing this on - as far as I am aware (as per historical sources and as per the Panthic Rehit Maryada) Grihishti diet 'can' include meat.

[SAadmin]

shaheediyan veer,

I was speaking to this gurmukh regarding this, he didn't say gristhi jevan includes meat but he didn't say it did either when he was speaking regarding bhai dya singh ji rehitnamas. I read it somewhere, also eating fish in gristhi jevan helps with developing healthy sperms. i may be wrong (please correct if i m wrong).

p.s: just for record guys i am full veggie. I dont eat meat, fish or eggs.

[amardeep]

All this debate and bickering just started recently because lack of understanding.

this is not true.. The issue was debated was ongoing at the time of the Gurus eg. the case with Banda Singh Bahadur's Army and the army of Baba Binod Singh (forgive me if i wrote a wrong name)

[shaheediyan]

For the record, ahem, I am a 'Lacto-Vegetarian'.

I will check the rehitnamas later, as far as I recall they don't mention diets. From memory, only the Prem Sumarg mentions dietary details - in which it permisses meat for grihishti Sikhs an even encourages it i.e. for males during marriage etc.

[amardeep]

could someone please quote the rehitnama that talks about the three guna diets? i've tried to look for it but have never been able to find it.

[Matheen]

Baba Nihal Singh Ji, Jathedar of Harianbela Nihang Singhs says that it is only a last resort, and then it must be jhatka with proper Maryada.

Sant Jagjit Singh Ji Harkhowal wale are strictly against meat and said that it is the cause of many diseases. The vast majority of Mahapursh also say this and the first thing they insist on if someone comes looking for 'deh-arogta' is to insist they quit meat/eggs etc.

There is also a Hukamnama from either Guru Hargobind Sahib or Guru Tegh Bahadur (I can't remember) asking Sikhs not to eat meat. There are photos of the original somewhere on the 'net.

Personally, I was told not to eat meat by the Panj Pyare, so that settles it for me. However, even if you're not Amritdhari, or you weren't told anything about meat, there really is no need in this age to be eating meat, especially the commercially farmed variety.

[shaheediyan]

N30 Ji,

There are 3 mentions of maas in the Daya Singh Rehitnama:

1 - He who consumes 'turk ka maas' and enjoyes prostitutes will go to hell.

2 - Those given 'Khande Pahul or Charan Pahul' should not eat 'Kuthaa (halaal), domestic pig or flesh from animals such as Donkey'.

3 - Bihangam touches not intoxicants or 'maas'.

My opinion is that most of the Sant influenced Sikh movements today - which means most apart from Singh Sahba/SGPC and large part of Dal Panth (ironically), have over the centuries adopted this part of the Bihangam Khalsa maryada.

Just one thing Matheen - as a last resort, Singhs would have hunted in the junglan, records state that wild boar was common game (which fits with the above ban on domestic pig), these animals would have been killed with arrow, not through Jhatka...

[amardeep]

shaheediya ji: What is a bihangam?

What about the hukamnama of Guru Har Gobind Sahib ji that states that sikhs should'n eat meat.

[Mithar]

One thing is for certain, pigs/wild boar cannot be done Jhatka to. Their necks (Dhaun) is so thick that a kirpan would stop half way through. That is probably the main reason why pigs are not killed in India using Jhatka by Hindu butchers/kasais. They are usually stabbed in the stomach or the heart in order to kill them. Pigs in India die a very painful death, and anyone in India eating pig meat will get that bad karma from the pain that pig had to go through. Goats die through jhatka which is practically painless (I think, not sure though).

I'm a vegetarian. I'm happy that I live like this and cannot imagine having a Raakshas diet of meat.

[shaheediyan]

Bihangam means one who does not get married and abstain from any sexual relations.

Guru Hargobind Sahibs hukumnama is considered to be fake by many academics - and certainly contradicts his and the Akaal Senas documented hunting activities - (Bhai Gurdas and Mughal sources).

Guru Gobind Singh and puratan Khalsa hunted all types of animals as part of their war training (against mobile objects) - they certainly would not have wasted the flesh. Many historical records show that puratan Singhs were actually fond of hunting wild board - which is also a sign of courage and shown by many Nihangs and Akalis who wear the Boars tooth in their dhummala.

Sri Dasam Granth Sahib - Bachitar Natak - 10th Master says:

ਭਾਗ

भाग

SECTION

ਅਥ ਰਾਜ ਸਾਜ ਕਥਨੰ ॥

अथ राज साज कथनं ॥

Here begins the Description of the Magnificence of Authority:

ਚੌਪਈ ॥

CHAUPAI

ਰਾਜ ਸਾਜ ਹਮ ਪਰ ਜਬ ਆਯੋ ॥ ਜਥਾ ਸਕਤਿ ਤਬ ਧਰਮ ਚਲਾਯੋ ॥

When I obtained the position of responsibility, I performed the religious acts to the best of my ability.

ਭਾਂਤਿ ਭਾਂਤਿ ਬਨਿ ਖੇਲ ਸਿਕਾਰਾ ॥ ਮਾਰੇ ਰੀਛ ਰੋਝ ਝੰਖਾਰਾ ॥੧॥

I went hunting various kinds of animals in the forest and killed bears, nilgais (blue bulls) and elks.1.

ਦੇਸ ਚਾਲ ਹਮ ਤੇ ਪੁਨਿ ਭਈ ॥ ਸਹਰ ਪਾਂਵਟਾ ਕੀ ਸੁਧਿ ਲਈ ॥

Then I left my home and went to place named Paonta.

ਕਾਲਿੰਦ੍ਰੀ ਤਟਿ ਕਰੇ ਬਿਲਾਸਾ ॥ ਅਨਿਕ ਭਾਂਤ ਕੇ ਪੇਖਿ ਤਮਾਸਾ ॥੨॥

I enjoyed my stay on the banks of Kalindri (Yamuna) and saw amusement of various kind2.

ਤਹ ਕੇ ਸਿੰਘ ਘਨੇ ਚੁਨਿ ਮਾਰੇ ॥ ਰੋਝ ਰੀਛ ਬਹੁ ਭਾਂਤਿ ਬਿਦਾਰੇ ॥

There I killed may lions, nilgais and bears.

[fatehsingh]

they certainly would not have wasted the flesh.

Isn't that based purely on assumption?

[Mithar]

Shaheediya, the hukamnama by Guru Hargobind Sahib Jee is considered authentic by historian Ganda Singh and (as a result) even by SGPC/missionary. Hukamnamas contained in Ganda Singh's book "hukamnamay" are not disputed. They are recognised as being authentic by the Panth.

Whether or not meat eating is against or allowed in Sikhi, but meat eating Sikhs can only eat meat that has been done Jhatka to. In the west I'm not aware of anywhere where Jhatka is performed, yet ironically there exists shops that will falsely use the term "jhatka" in order to fool Sikh masses who eat meat. Those shops buy their meat from slaughter houses which kill animals using the western method of slaughter. That is not Jhatka meat. Only in India/Nipal you will find real Jhatka meat.

[shaheediyan]

"Isn't that based purely on assumption?"

Yes and no. It's also based on historical sources and rehitname regarding meat (the observation of Khalsai and the mindset of the khalsai post Guru Gobind Singh Ji). It obvioulsy always boils down to opinion, and this is mine. Even though I don't eat meat (as instructed by my Panj Pyare) - it doesn't stop me from searching for historical truths. I have no issues with people who don't choose to agree, I just want to balance out the claims (which originally were wrong at teh start of the thread).

[chatanga1]

domestic pigs or paltoo soor( reared pigs) were not to be consumed for they were used to clean latrines. ie eat our shit. Pigs will eat our shit and this is what they were used for in olden times. this is why muslims and jews refuse pig meat and say it is a dirty animal. However pigs will only eat turd-burgers if they cannot find anything else to eat. The pigs reared in western countries certainly would not be allowed this kind of diet.

Turd-casseroles are not only for pigs either, chickens will eat shit-pie as well. i saws a photo of a pig in india in a small room under a house where it was eating the peoples turd-topped pizzas.

meat debate wil never end. I am not a vegetarian. I do avoid the flesh of animals in my diet, but I dont belive it to be any different to eating the flesh of fruits or vegetables. I cant stand the v egg gie warriors tho, anfd thier holier than thou attitude.

[das]

I won't jump into "whether Sikhs should or should not eat meat".......but let's discuss the things from the core:

For a normal common man:

- Eating any kind of meat/flesh (jhatka or any different method) is effecting one's spiritual practice in negative sense.

- Ghosts and other negative energies are attracted more to the persons who drink intoxicants and eat meat because having food through them is easy for a Ghost.

- We're on this earth to advance spiritually so that we can merge with HIM. So, therefore anything that hinders the spiritual growth is not good.

But at the same time, the persons who don't do anything spirtually but just gets into "meat is good or meat is sin" for debate purposes does not land anywhere because we tend to discuss and debate but never follow our Guru's advice: Naam, Dhan, Ishnan.

[Vah]

The meat issue always crops up, its really dissapointing out of all the rich theology, philosophy, poetry etc in sikh dharam...we want to dicuss meat above the rest.

[fatehsingh]

Chatanga sure has the recipe for the various types of crappy dishes!

[shaheediyan]

"Whether or not meat eating is against or allowed in Sikhi, but meat eating Sikhs can only eat meat that has been done Jhatka to. In the west I'm not aware of anywhere where Jhatka is performed, yet ironically there exists shops that will falsely use the term "jhatka" in order to fool Sikh masses who eat meat. Those shops buy their meat from slaughter houses which kill animals using the western method of slaughter. That is not Jhatka meat. Only in India/Nipal you will find real Jhatka meat."

I agree, this is what I have always thought in any case.

On your other point, if SGPC and Panth agree on the hukumnama, then why does the Panthic rehitmaryada not reflect this......

Secondly - here is something to think about - the hukumnama from what I remember was apparently for the Kabuli Sangat - yet this sangat (as with most old sangats outside Punjab - uninfluenced) treats meat as a normal part of their diet.....

[Mithar]

The Guru Hargobind Hukamnama if I remember correctly was for the Bengali Sangat.

[amardeep]

why does it matter who it was for? its a hukam from maharaj

[shaheediyan]

My wrong - I mixed it up with Dasm Patshahs hukumnama to teh Kabuli sangat where he instructs to refrain from Halal Meat.

Sarbat sangat Kabul Guru rakhe ga

Tusa ute asaadee bahut khusi hai

Tusi Khande da Amrit Panja to lena

Kes rakhne...ih asadee mohur hair;

Kachh, Kirpan da visah nahee karna

Sarb Loh da kara hath rakhna

Dono vakat kesa dee palna karna

Sarbat sangat abhakhia da kutha

Khave naheen, Tamakoo na vartana

Bhadni tatha kanya-maran-vale so mel na rakhe

Meene, Massandei, Ramraiye ki sangat na baiso

Gurbani parhni...Waheguru, Waheguru japna

Guru kee rahat rakhnee

Sarbat sangat oopar meri khushi hai.

Patshahi Dasvi

Jeth 26, Samat 1756

[fatehsingh]

Where can one read this kabul Hukamnama in Gurmukhi?