Bibian And Singhs

[SAadmin]

Source: http://thepanthicotpreka.blogspot.com/2006...01_archive.html

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh.

Daas has seen that Kaljug is very powerful and tries to entice us with maya in many forms including through Bibian. Daas has seen many people fall into this trap. Recently daas has cut off talking to bibian when possible because they were not acting as Singhni's should and daas does not want to fall into the traps of maya set for him by Kaljug. Daas does not want to fall into the traps of kaljug as many people before me have. So daas thinks its better to be safe than sorry. We must be aware of and avoid the traps off kaljug. Kaljug is very powerful and it only takes a second to slip up and to lose all the kamayee we have done. It is better that we protect our jeevans and the kamayee we have done and make sure we preserve the honor of our great Guru's and Khalsa Panth. Guru Sahib sometimes tests us to see how committed we are to them. When we pass these tests we are able to progress in our jeevans, but if we stumble with these tests we make it harder on ourselves. Daas believes it is better to stay away from Bibian and maya. This stuff is just taking us away from what we are here to do in this life.

By now a bunch of people must be up in arms and calling for my head because I have written that we should keep a cautious separation between Bibian and Singhs, especially in the age where they are most susceptible to fall and do something they will regret later on. If you do not agree with this, that is your own prerogative, but please read on with an open mind.

Tria Chritar was written for a reason, even though people doubt it. I believe tria chritrar is an amazing piece of work because it shows the ways of women, and how they can try to seduce men to get their way. Daas has seen and heard of many situations where a Bibi comes after a Singh, the Singh refuses, but than Bibi tries to seduce Singh so that Singh will fall in their spell and Bibi will get the Singh. Tria Chritar warns us of these situations and prepares us to deal with them more effectively when they come up, because we already know the methods of women. This is a very dangerous situation even if we have read Tria Chritar because kaam is very powerful, and even great Sikhs have fallen victim to Kaam.

Many youth these days play it off as we are all brothers and sisters, but the same people when you see them at raansabayees they wont go out of their way to say Fateh to their brothers, but will be looking for excuses and chances to say Fateh to their 'sisters'. Some of these people even end up marrying their 'sisters'. The false use of the words 'brother' and 'sister' when you don't really mean it very misleading and people must be aware of the dangers of this. Those gurmukhs are rare who can control their mind in this play of maya and really see their brothers and sisters as just that. Many people just abuse this word and don't really mean it.

Singhs use to be trusted with the prettiest women, use to save women from the clutches of the Moghuls. Singhs were known as the most honest and trustworthy people. There are still many Singhs like this, but it saddens me to hear of how many Singhs go astray and are not living up to the ideals of their ancestors. We are losing our way, we are reducing the amount of bhagti we do and becoming more susceptible to the plays of maya. The path of Sikhi is very thin, like the sharpest part of a sword. We must leave our own mat and follow Guru's mat.

Look around us at how many Singhs and Bibian are slipping, how many have lost their way by falling prey to Kaam. We have given our head, our lives to Guru Sahib, we must also act like it. It is very sad to see so many people slipping up. It's hard to stay on this path, we must take precautions to make sure we don't fall victim to Kaljug.

At raansaabayees these days, Singh's and Singhni's sit in sangat and 'check' each other out. Impure thoughts come into their minds. Not all people are like this, but we can not deny that it does exist. Some youth also use youth events as an excuse for genders to mix for impure intentions.

Singhs and Singhni's add each other to MSN to 'talk about Sikhi', or to 'help each other out'. Many of these cases end up with one or even both of the parties having feelings for each other, and instead of helping each others Sikhi, they just hold each other back on this path of love. Yes this is a path of love 'prema bhagti', but we must be clear, our love is LOVE FOR GURU SAHIB, LOVE FOR GOD. But youth end up following in love with each other instead.

I am not anti Bibian or anti Singhs, I am just pro Gur-Mat and anti Man-Mat. People will object to this post, but please put your own personal beliefs and bias's aside and look at this objectively, look at the actions of past mahapursh's, look at those who achieved brahmgyaan and how they did it.

Like I said in a previous post, it is up to us if we want to get to sachkhand by crossing that ocean. It is up to us to cross that ocean, float in that ocean, or drown in that ocean. Kaljug is very powerful, has done lots of bhagti, can over power us if we aren't careful. Don't get to high on yourself that you can stay protected, many great gursikhs have fallen. Beware.

Most people get married in their 20's those years before marriage are the most dangerous, just hold on tight to Guru sahib and don't let go. Don't let your mind wander. So many have drown at this age and regret it for ever, don't be one of them.

It is better to follow advice of Gurmukhs, they are very wise and teach us properly. To much mixing of genders is against our Sikh culture. We need to look no further than to Bhrahmgyani's Sant Baba Nand Singh Ji and Sant Harnaam Singh and their take on Bibian and Singh's interaction. When Sant Harnaam Singh would see 'maya' aka women they would look down at the ground instead of looking at the women. They said the key to controlling your mind is by controlling your eyes.

Par Tria Roop Na Dekhey Nethr. Saadh Ki Tehl Sant Sangh Heth.

(Not cast eyes on another female's beauty and remain in

Guru Ji's service through the Saadh Sangat).

Now we can look at Sant Baba Nand Singh Ji's take on it;

At the Holy Place of Baba Nand Singh Ji Maharaj, woman was not permitted inside nor she could stay there. She could only come to attend congregations along with her husband or other elderly male member of her family and immediately leave hereafter. Thus His Holy Place was totally free from the presence of Kamini and Kanchan. Babaji never talked to any woman alone.

Where we will get married is already decided by Waheguru. Who we are seperated from is also decided by Waheguru. We do not need to take this stress on our heads and feel that we must find who we will marry. This is manmat. "Sanjog Vijog, doye Kar Chalaave". Who we meet and seperated from is all in the will of god.

Daas would like to make clear once again that I am not in any way against Bibian. If it has come across that way I apologize. I have just been deeply saddened with the amount of people slipping up which is both the fault of Singhs and Kaurs. But we must be aware of the advice of Mahapursh's, and the lessons given in Tria Chritar, this is my only intent. Once again I hope no one will take offence to this post, if anyone has a different view, perhaps we can have a healthy discussion.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

[Guest]

Please discuss !!!

[Mithar]

Bhai N30 Singh, i totally agree with you brother about this topic. There should be a social separation between Singhs and Bibiyan. People now days are way too frank with the opposite sex. You will see Singhs and Bibiyan hugging each other even though they are not related. I ask Bujurgs who tell me that when they were young Singhs would not even day Fateh to a woman. When a woman not relation to them would be near by they would always lower their gaze. Relatives of mine who have met Sant Jarnail Singh Bhindrawala tell me that he would never look directly at a women. He would only speak to a women when a woman would ask him some question, but even then he would never look at the woman directly. Now you see Singhs who not only look directly into the eyes of women, but also go to the extent of actually touching. Even if it is a so called ‘brotherly’ touch, a man just should not touch a bibi who is not his real sister or mother.

The Tria Charitars should be studied and lessons should be learnt from those Charitars. Kaam is the most dangerous of all the evils in a young Singhs and Bibis life. Many people might say that my views are ‘old fashioned’. But I personally know Singhs who have follen due to Kaam because they wanted to be ‘modern’ with their so called ‘sisters’. Now due to western and modern influence people have forgotten our traditional social behaviours, thus today you see how Singhs are no different than the average Monaa out there in terms of moral character.

[Kaljug]

Why not make Bibian dress themselves in black from head to toe, with maybe a small hole or two from which to see, so that they don't fall over and accidentally touch a Singh? Of course, you would also have to make every non-Sikh woman dress in the same way because a Singh may experience impure thoughts by looking at them. Come to think of it, this problem wouldn't even exist if women were somehow just not allowed.

Repression does not work, people, it just makes a very natural urge manifest in a very unnatural and much more powerful way. Have you ever read about the Victorian era in England? These people spent so much time and effort trying to hide from the sexual urge that eventually they would have to wrap cloth around the legs of their grand pianos because they resembled the uncovered legs of a woman. Yes, you read that right: grown men were reduced to paroxysms of pure prurience by the sight of well-curved furniture. It's no accident that Freud developed his theories of sexual neuroses at this time in history.

The only thing you can really do is teach your kids that sex is a normal human function and to stop making it such a big deal. There's nothing particularly mysterious about it - it's just nature's way of making sure that we pass on our genes to the next generation. Sexual desire is a sign that it might be a good idea to get married some time soon as, in terms of Sikhi and grist jeevan, this is the institution in which it is safe to express and explore, and perhaps one day tame, these urges.

Have you ever seen a National Geographic documentary on African or Amazonian tribes? If so, then you have probably seen topless or semi-clad tribeswomen walking around doing their chores with the tribesmen walking among them and not batting an eyelash at their practical nudity. The reason is that they realise gender differences are as natural as rain and sunshine and pay about as much attention to them.

K.

[Guest]

Mithar veer, above article is not my view on this topic. I wanted to post the article here to further discuss this topic.

Here is my take on this subject:

At the end of day, core problem(this applies to me as well) is lack of seva, lack of dedication towards sadhu sants/sadh sangat, if one is not pakka in these things, regardless if you are amritdhari or not , hormones exist in y(female) will attract hormones exist in x(male) and vice versa, every man has this natural animal instinct, lets not deny it, whether you doing the act in real life or doing act in the dreams or in mind, its same, you still doing bhog with opposite sex whether its in real life or in mind. so don't think just because you are not talking to opposite sex restrict yourself that you are chardi-kalah, once &^^$ hits the fan( thoughts in subconsciousness mind(antish karan) comes out then only one can see the reality. so problem lies much deeper than what bhaaji/penji club made out to be. Like it or not, forcing yourself to restrict talking is more dangerous than just naturally observing your thoughts and doing vichar on thoughts. If you force your mind to restrict you will end up like sexual repressed monger who want nail everything and anything. Thats more sickening and fully perversed in nature, from sexual repression - pervert gyanis, baba's and child molestors are born just be aware. Don't force yourself, just let the thoughts flow, ignore them, dont regret or feel guilt, just think of your mind as an ocean, once and while there is ripple effect(bad thoughts) in ocean, but eventually that ripple effect disappears. just ignore it keep doing seva, attending sangat of tat vedaie bhramgyani atamgyani mahapursh, chardi-kalah gursikhs, keep listening to katha of mahapursh, don't have your mind idle. idle mind is like a demon. Thats when thoughts from sub consciousness mind comes out (real animal instinct comes out), it boggles everyone thats why guru's talked about ajapa jaap na visraie in dasam granth and ) and mahapursh followed guru maharaj updesh and fully believed in constant meditation and killed their subconsciousness mind (antish karan- man, chit, buddh, ahankar).

Also core of the problem is that this attitude that lies within youths that once you take amrit, no efforts are needed, like as if salvation is gaurantee to them on a silver plate. They dont know taking amrit only means to admission to high school, getting phd( bhramgyan) takes ages if not life times.

We can learn quite a bit from mahapursh's sakhiya above but we should also focus on their teachings that bairaag/tyaag comes from within mind. We should also keep in mind, that there are three types of mahapursh- daane/maryada purshutam, divane and mastane. So there is no set rule for people who to deal with maya of daily life, because its meant to be dealt with case to case basis as everyone is at different level of surti.

[Kaljug]

We can learn quite a bit from mahapursh's sakhiya above but we should also focus on their teachings that bairaag/tyaag comes from within. We should also keep in mind, that there are three types of mahapursh- daane/maryada purshutam, divane and mastane. So there is no set rule for people who to deal with maya of daily life, because its meant to be dealt with case to case basis as everyone is at different level of surti.

Fateh, Veer ji.

I don't think it is advisable to try to apply a brahmachari mahapurush's practice of mental continence unless one is committed to lifelong celibacy. If you harbour even the smallest hope of being married (in which case you will still have need of a healthy libido), the attempt to negate the sexual urge this way will just make it all the more stronger because, at a subconscious level at least, you know that you do not really want it to disappear.

K.

[Guest]

Fateh, Veer ji.

I don't think it is advisable to try to apply a brahmachari mahapurush's practice of mental continence unless one is committed to lifelong celibacy. If you harbour even the smallest hope of being married (in which case you will still have need of a healthy libido), the attempt to negate the sexual urge this way will just make it all the more stronger because, at a subconscious level at least, you know that you do not really want it to disappear.

K.

Exactly, i totally agree. Gristhi singhs/singhanis shouldn't be applying routine/practices of behingum tyaagi mahapursh. One should consider behingum marg if they wish to follow practices of biraagi/tyaagi/behingum mahapursh.

[jsingh96]

so then for gristi sikhs, should they try to control their kaam or what

[drawrof]

I kinda feel the same way about aloo tiki's at times.....

I guess a cheat day with 'only' aloo tiki's is permissable so long as I don't have hopes, desires, thoughts of coveting a samosa......

[jsingh96]

I kinda feel the same way about aloo tiki's at times.....

I guess a cheat day with 'only' aloo tiki's is permissable so long as I don't have hopes, desires, thoughts of coveting a samosa......

looooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooool

[Guest]

mega lol drawrof, kach da glass or steeel da glass?lol

[Kaljug]

so then for gristi sikhs, should they try to control their kaam or what

Yes, by channelling desire through conjugal union with your other half, not by trying to destroy the urge altogether.

K.

[Xylitol]

your energy will go to where the anand is. So if the anand is coming from naam / bani, the desire for sex is not overpowering and the energy flows upwards, rather than down.

[randip singh]

Hmm I don't buy this or the examples.

We need to differentiate between pure Love (which can occure between a man and woman), and Lust (Kaam) which can occur between a man and a woman. I don't buy all this looking down business. What next Burkha's for men and women?

[randip singh]

Hmm I don't buy this or the examples.

We need to differentiate between pure Love (which can occure between a man and woman), and Lust (Kaam) which can occur between a man and a woman. I don't buy all this looking down business. What next Burkha's for men and women?

[cul]

I never thought I'd say it, but I agree with Randip Singh.

"Bibian seduce us..." blah blah

pile of BS.

[Malwe Da Sher]

your energy will go to where the anand is. So if the anand is coming from naam / bani, the desire for sex is not overpowering and the energy flows upwards, rather than down.

Nicely put.

Whether one subscribes to 'looking down' theories or not is irrelevant. The concept of Jat has several elements which perhaps scholary members of this form could elucidate upon. Whether or not we follow them and the distance they appear to be from our modern society lets not criticise them. Just because they may be difficult to uphold for many of us does not mean such traditions should be ridiculed and compared to talibanism. Such traditions were once prominent amongst our elders and continue to be seen amongst some Gursikhs today. Ofcourse this all seems a bit alien to the rensbhai ' paji penji' culture which many in Western countries have become accustomed to.

Amongst the qualities of Gursikhs and shaheeds often referred to in puratan grants is jati as well as sati, hathi, tapi, jappi etc.

[amardeep]

There is a rehitnama that says its ok for a sikh to engage in friendship with a woman, but he should'n get near evil people..

[shaheediyan]

Well I thought the author makes some very valid points and respect him for raising the issue.

His post is being blown out of proportion, he is not advocating that we become Bihangam.

There are a number of issues here:

1 - The jvaan years before Sikhs get married. The whole promotion of marriage by Guru Sahiban was to ensure that our desires are channelled in a natural, dignified, socially productive, moral and disciplined fashion. Until the advent of westernism in India, boys and girls would get married at an early age i.e. 17-20 years old. This was naturally the best thing to do. It ensured that young adults assumed responsibilty and matured quicker, alongside not letting sexual desires manifest into regrettable and sinful behaviour. It ebnsured that men and women were able to continue to regard and see members of the opposite as their brothers and sisters, by pairing them up at an early age.

2 - Getting married isn't the be all and end all of the problem of sexual kaam, as the Charitropakyhan tells. Temptation tempts those who are married also, in many cases more so. Sri Guru Granth Sahib warns us against adulterous thoughts and actions - Guru Jis rehits also consider adultery to be the gravest of sins.

3 - There was a reason that the division in the darbar was created - this tradition reveals much - it reveals an ancient problem that was not exempted from religious congregations....

4 - Gurbani consistantly tells us that kaam and krodh (especially) are the 2 roots causes that keep us away from realising Parmatma - the power of kaam is no joke - nor is it easy for anyone to control.

5 - If one looks at the behaviour of bazurg from any sampryada - they will see and learn that alongside bhagti - there was a social etiquette and practical culture followed by dharmic folk in order to reduce the opportunity of ill thought and action - one only has to look at Yodhvir examples of past i.e. Sri Laxman Ji and Sri Dasmesh Pita to know how much respect was accorded to womenfolk and the interaction between the two sexes.

I don't see that the author has said anything particularly wrong. With age, spiritual progession, bhagti - one naturally becomes more God-focused - when this happens - the desires are brought under-control and the danger of kaamic thought is reduced and even diminished - but one can still show affection to their spouse - but this would be out of love and a controlled kaam, rather than a controlling kaam.

The real basis for these traditions i.e. seperation of genders and highly respectful/necessary interaction when necessary - esp in Panthic/Sangat circles - is no different than the basis for having a rehit maryada. It is not the final objective - it is a foundation for helping us in the early (and longer) stages of our journey - an aid/tool, until we have mastered/brought under control/illuminated out mind.

Mithar, I agree with much of what you have said.

Randip Singh, there is a difference between hiding your womenfolk and wanting to treat them with the respect that our Guru demands, alongside paying heed to our Gurus wisdom on this subject, the large part of which makes up the Sri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji.

[shaheediyan]

"I never thought I'd say it, but I agree with Randip Singh.

"Bibian seduce us..." blah blah

pile of BS."

Read Charitre 21-23, as a start. Then ponder over why Shahe-shahan-shah Guru Gobind Singh used his divine time on this Earth to communicate this story to us.

Other than that, its not a big secret that the current and cool 'bhenji/bhaji' friendships in certain jathai have lead to embarrasing consequences, as the author allludes to.

So no, its not BS.

[amardeep]

For those of you who dont have acces to charitro pakhyan:

Chritar or Tale Twenty One to Twenty Three (21-23)

Before the translation is given, it is essential to make clear that the town was ANANDPUR, near Sutlej River, situated at the foot of Mountain NAINA DEVI, in Kehloor State, was founded by Sri Guru Tegh Bahadur in 1665 CE, before he left this town for his second visit of Patna City, in Bihar Sate, where he had left his family members during his earlier visit, when he then NOT made the Guru, and had returned to Punjab with his mother to condole the passing away of Sri Guru Har Rai. Guru Tegh Bahadur finally returned to Anandpur in 1670 CE, since then he had been on preaching tour of the Punjab, when on November 11, 1675 he was martyred at Delhi with three Sikhs. Guru Teg Bahadur was succeeded by Guru Gobind Rai, who made this blessed place as the center of his activities, when in December 1705 CE he had to leave this town for good. Guru Gobind Rai wrote the contents of Sri Dasam Granth Sahib, a part of it was written when the Guru visited Nahan State in 1684 CE and stayed at a place called Paonta Sahib for more than two years; and other part at Anandpur. The Composition Chritropakhiyaan was completed at Anandpur, as indicated at the end of this section, ie. in 1753 Bikrami, on Bhadon Sudi 8, when it was Sunday; in the modern era it was then year 1696 CE.

Guru Gobind Singh during the above said period was then living at Anandpur. When the town of Anandpur was founded, Guru Tegh Bahadur had purchased the village of Makhowal from the Raja of Kehloor, and the deed was made then at Bilaspur. Anandpur was raised on the ground of the said village, and from its inception till Guru Gobind Singh's evacuation in December 1705, it remained a free Town, totally administered by the respective Guru. When Raja Bhim Chand became inimical to the Guru on account of the Guru's non- Brahmanic Teachings of Equality of All against Caste System, many endeavors were made by the Kehloor Raja to ask for payment of regular tax money, which demand was denied as per the deed executed, then followed the attempt take over the town from the Guru by annexing it by use of military force, and to evict the Guru and Sikhs from the hilly region, but failed. In this context, the then successor Raja Ajmer Chand with the combined forces of all the hill rajas, and also with the help of imperial Mughal forces made invasions of the town for five times, and finally the Guru had to vacate the town for good during 1705 CE.

The Tales 21 - 23, as given in Chritropakhyaan, as translated in Punjabi by Dr Rattan Singh Jaggi, and Mrs Dr Gursharan Kaur Jaggi, their English translation is given below.

It may be stated that these Tales shall prove that this whole text of Chritropakhyaan was written by Guru Gobind Singh himself, none else. In these three Tales, one will observe the extreme sense of humility, the sense of dignity of women's honor, compassion, and the Guru's expression of the self as a common man, no superior to any one, is depicted in the narration of the Tales. All will agree that neither any friend nor any follower, nor any inimical Brahmin could have depicted the Guru in such a masterly manner, as the Guru himself had.

The first 3 verses of general nature and also give the locaton of Anandpur, which has been described above.

At Anandpur, numerous Sikhs would come to pay a visit, and

would get their wishes fulfilled, and would return to their homes happily. (4)

Once a wife of rich man visited the town, and on seeing the Raja of the town, got extremely fascinated and charmed on seeing him.(5)

The Raja had an employee, named Magan. She called for Magan, bribed him with money, and told him as under. (6)

She told him that he should arrange a meeting of her with the Raja. When meeting is arranged, she would give more money

to him. (7)

Magan, thus lured with the money he got from her, came to the

Raja with his folded hands, and fell on his feet, and made the supplication. 8

Magan stated that Raja had desired to know of some 'Mantra', and that he had arranged to show him, provided he followed him to the place he would take him to. (9)

The Raja guised himself in the garb of a holy man, contemplated of God's Name, accompanied Magan during the dark hours of the night. He took the Raja to the residence of the rich lady (10)

On seeing the Raja, the lady decorated herself; then called for flowers, betel and liquor. She then received the Raja, and expressed her sensual desire to be fulfilled. (11)

The Raja got changed his dress by putting on the costly silken dress. (12)

The lady told the Raja to copulate with her, as she was greatly excited. (13)

The Raja then thought that he had come there to learn some art, whereas the things were quite contrary what was said to him. (14)

The lady began saying, what did it matter, if he (Raja) was worshipped by the people, one should not be proud of claiming anything, neither one's beauty, nor the wealth or his piety - all these were transitory things. (15)

The Raja replied that by leading a pious life of righteousness, persons received wealth, and luxurious living. Also by leading righteous life one attains to high position. How could he abandon his righteousness on her saying, and put himself in the pit of hell. (16)

The Raja continued that he would never stoop so low to copulate with her; as he was very much afraid of putting a blot on the fair name of his family, he belonged to. How could he abandon his legally wedded wife, and be intimate with her. Then how could he attain a suitable place in the court of Dharam Raja? (17)

The lady then said when a woman in her extreme sex frenzy comes to a man for her satisfaction, and the man disappoints her; such a man should be thrown in the pit of hell. 18

The Raja replied, "O Lady, you have always been falling on my feet and worshipped me. Are you not ashamed to ask me to copulate with you? (19)

The lady replied, "Lord Krishna was also worshipped by the people. He did involve himself in his romantic life. He had intimate relations with Radha; and he did not fall into the pit of hell. (20)

The lady continued. "God created the body of 5 Elements, and He Himself created the Sex Instinct in both men and women. (21)

"For this reason, you copulate with me, as I am greatly being troubled by the onslaught of this Instinct, (22 -23)

The Raja replied, "O my daughter, calm yourself. The sex Instinct will not harm you, if you think of God. I will not stoop so low with you, and shall never be ungrateful and unfaithful to my wedded wife. (24)

O my daughter, why should I stoop so low to copulate with you? I am afraid of the serious consequences of such low deeds, both here in this world, and thereafter." (25 & 26)

Annop Koer then said. "O dear, do not be afraid of the people's slandering, as they fear from you. (27)

She again insisted on copulation, failing which she told him if he would not copulate, then he could go away only, by passing under her legs. 28

The Raja replied that Only he should pass under her legs, who would stoop to copulate with her. He was a religious person, who would never stoop low to copulate with her, having regard for his life here and hereafter. (29)

The lady said, "Whatever you say, I will not allow you to go without copulating with me. Today I will catch hold of you, and will enjoy with you the whole night. O my friend, it is for you, I will cut myself in twain with a saw, and will bravely reply to Dharam Raj in the life hereafter. (30)

She went on repeatedly insisting for compliance of her demand. (31)

The Raja replied, "In the first instance, God has created me in the family of Kashatriyas. Secondly, I am worshipped by many. If I stoop low with you, I will get degenerated. (32)

She again threatened the Raja that she would commit suicide by taking poison. (33)

The Raja became apprehensive of the situation created. (34)

The lady again stressed hard on copulation, and the Raja repeated his fears. (35 and 36)

The lady again and again compelled the Raja to copulate. The Raja replied, "Many young ladies come to me, and worship me, as their GURU; and as such they all are like my daughters. (37& 38

The Raja further told her, as to what is this love of women, who leave one man, and go for another with whom they get fascinated and charmed. (39)

The lady expressed her helpness, being too much captivated by the passions. (40)

The Raja then thought, that at the time there was no Sikh available with him; and this woman in her madness was adamant to defame him. If he were to run away from there, there was no one with him to help him. (41 and 42)

Now the Raja also played the trick of his escape. He first started praising of her beauty. (43 and 44).

The lady then invited the Raja to fondle with her all the night to cool her passions. (45)

She then loudly told the Raja, to either have sex with her or kill her. (46)

The Raja again praised her beauty, but it had no effect. (47 and 48

In verses 49 and 50, she again in her senseless talks repeated

her demands.

The Raja then gave the following sermons to the passionate lady -

"When I became of age, the Lord God instructed me, "O my son, let

this be the solemn Pledge of yours or you make solemn determination, that so long you live. ..Your mutual love and sincerity with your wedded wife be ever on the increase. And you, never by mistake, ever think of sharing the bed with any other woman even in your dreams. Indra, committed such a sin, consequently on whose bodies numerous female genital organs appeared. Thinking of of another woman, Ten Headed Ravana, lost his heads. Similarly, thinking of another woman, the clan of Koros was completely annihilated. The love with another's wife is like a sharp dagger, and an invitation to moral death. The one who indulges in adulterous actions, he should be considered as a great cheat; such a person dies of the dog's death at the hands of a 'Chandal' (man of lowest deeds). "Listen Lady! woman come to us from far and wide. They bow their heads, and wish for boons. Those Sikh disciples are like my sons and their wives like my daughters. Tell me, of pretty lady, how can I copulate with them." (51 - 54)

After listening to all this, the lady in her extreme rage said, "Now I shall shout, "thief, thief", and people will kill you." (55)

The lady again said, it would be better for the Raja if he were to copulate with her happily. (56)

The Raja repeated the sermons - "O lady, the Lord has taught me this lesson that one should never in his dreams think of going into bed with another's wife. Also, anything belonging to some body is like a stone, and else's wife like a mother to me." (57 - 58

On hearing this, she shouted, "thief, thief", and got her men awakened. (59)

Hearing this, the Raja became fearful, and left his shoes and his silk dress, and ran away. (60)

TALE 22

The Raja ran away, when the people were all got awoken from sleep.(1 and 2)

The Raja got himself surrounded by the people, to deal with the thief. (3 and 4)

In this turmoil in the darkness of the night, caught

hold of the lady's brother from his beard, pulled down his turban and began hitting him. (5)

The Brother of the lady became unconsciencious, having received severe beatings. (6)

The lady then shouted that it was her brother, but to no avail (7)

People beat her brother with their shoes, got him chained, and was put in jail. The lady went back to her place. 8

In this way the Raja managed to run away from the scene. The lady's brother was locked in the jail. None could understand the whole drama thus enacted. (9)

TALE 23

In the following morning, all got up, and the Raja came to the Assemblage of his people (1)

The lady's passions had been cooled down; and only in her rage exhibited the shoes and the silk dress to the people. (2)

The GURU in his assemblage declared to his followers that his shoes and silk dress had been stolen. He also stated that if any of his Sikh, who would find out the thief, he would be liberated from the cycle of repeated births and deaths (3)

When the Sikhs heard the words uttered by the Guru, they revealed the secret of the lady to all the assemblage. (4)

The Raja then commanded to bring the thief before him, and also his shoes and the silk dress. But the real thief should not be frightened in any way, to be brought in a respectful way. (6)

(When the lady was brought there) The Rajas asked her why she had taken his shoes and the silken dress. The one who commits theft, she should know how he is to be dealt with. He was excusing her excesses committed, being a lady; otherwise for such a crime the penalty was death. (7)

The lady turned pale, and could not utter a single word. 8

The Raja then said, he would deal with her later. (9)

The lady was called again, when she confessingly told her story. She played tricks on the Raja, who in turn played counter trick on her. (10)

Her brother was set free from the prison. She prayed to the Raja, that in future, she would never stoop such low, and she be excused this time. (11)

The Guru stated, "Now lady, you exonerate me as well, because I do not want that this case to linger on any farther. The lady was then endowed by the Gracious Guru, a pension of Rs 20,000 to be paid every half year. (12)

[randip singh]

Randip Singh, there is a difference between hiding your womenfolk and wanting to treat them with the respect that our Guru demands, alongside paying heed to our Gurus wisdom on this subject, the large part of which makes up the Sri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji.

The point I am trying to make is that there is not a problem with the opposite sex i.e. they lead us into temptation, but the problem is within (which is pretty much what you have said).

Kaam = obsession with sex. It is abnormal behaviour. It is not the basic desire to procreate, but something more than that. It is like a glutton with food.

So averting one's eyes from teh opposite sex will not clear up the problem. I know people who are so obsessed with Kaam that they find the touch of leather starts their obsession with sex.

Hope I have made myself clear.

[shaheediyan]

I believe kaam translates to 'obsession/addiction/lust'. It does not necessarily have to relate to sexual desire, but this form of lust/desire is certainly the strongest.

I understand what you are saying Randip Singh Ji, all I am saying is that we shouldn't ridicule traditional methods which some youth today find nimrata and strentgh in - methods or cultures which I personally saw esteemed and devote members the older generation use, not to mention divine personalities in History and many famous Gursikh. Your leather example actually implies 'association' so it would have been cultivated elsewhere - to that with which it associates.

If your method works for you, its all well and good. Some of us like to believe their is wisdom in tradition/religious personalities, those beliefs should at the very least be respected.

[jsingh96]

I believe kaam translates to 'obsession/addiction/lust'. It does not necessarily have to relate to sexual desire, but this form of lust/desire is certainly the strongest.

I understand what you are saying Randip Singh Ji, all I am saying is that we shouldn't ridicule traditional methods which some youth today find nimrata and strentgh in - methods or cultures which I personally saw esteemed and devote members the older generation use, not to mention divine personalities in History and many famous Gursikh. Your leather example actually implies 'association' so it would have been cultivated elsewhere - to that with which it associates.

If your method works for you, its all well and good. Some of us like to believe their is wisdom in tradition/religious personalities, those beliefs should at the very least be respected.

kaam, (kaamaa in sanskrit) in the most literal sense means desire, and that can manifest in many ways, be it sexual, material, emotional

[shaheediyan]

Exactly.