Removing Kakaars For Work And Other Reasons

[Kaljug]

Fateh!

I'd like the opinion of the Gursikhs here regarding the temporary removal of kakaars for professional or other reasons.

I know that some Singhs who are travelling by air will remove their kirpans due to security concerns at airports (and not eat or drink until they have done put the kirpan back on and done an ardaas for forgiveness), but are there any other times when it is acceptable without going for pesh and retaking Amrit (the latter for example when one has to have hair removed from one's head for removal of a tumour)?

Would you consider it acceptable if it was for purely professional reasons, for example to fight in MMA events where one's opponent may not agree to fight someone wearing what looks to him like a very sharp and dangerous dagger? (At the amateur level, one's opponent may be fine with it, but at professional level there is no way that the organisations and referees involves will let anyone get into a ring wearing weapons - even if they are concealed in a dumalla.)

If you feel it is unforgivable, feel free to say so. If you think that it is acceptable, please share how you would go about it (hopefully not going for pesh after every match). Your guidance would be much appreciated.

Thanks,

Kaljug.

[Matheen]

When I first started training, I wasn't Amritdhari and had no problem complying with rules - we weren't even allowed thin karas, kirpan was out of the question. They even checked nail length! After receiving Amrit, I stopped competing but still train. The only problem is grappling with non Sikhs - people don't take well to a kara across the throat or a Kirpan poking them - even a small Kirpan in a kamarkasa can cause discomfort. Dastar is not staying on, no matter how it's tied, lol, so can't keep them there.

It's a personal thing - I'd rather not compete than take off kakkars, but others don't seem to mind. My thinking is that Guru's hukam is above all, and Amrit didn't come cheap!

[jsingh96]

in the shastarvidiya akhara they take off their kara's to train, because if they did not it would lead to serious injury.

singhs take their kirpans off for airplanes, even mahapursh that come abroad

i don't think its a big deal, i think there is a distinction between removing a kakkar like kirpan for a few minutes/hours for a purpose, and removing kesh (which is a bujjar kurehat)

most people don't seem to think so, and that is the argument most people give.

[fatehsingh]

in the shastarvidiya akhara they take off their kara's to train, because if they did not it would lead to serious injury.

singhs take their kirpans off for airplanes, even mahapursh that come abroad

i don't think its a big deal, i think there is a distinction between removing a kakkar like kirpan for a few minutes/hours for a purpose, and removing kesh (which is a bujjar kurehat)

most people don't seem to think so, and that is the argument most people give.

I agree. Would be interesting to know where this notion that other than Kashera & Kesh, no kakaars can ever leave the body started from as it is now prevalent in certain groups. Do they not take off kirpan while doing #2 in the bathroom or sleeping as well? Isn't that beadbi of Shastar?

[shaheediyan]

As per puratan rehits, a Singh used to take off his shastar (kirpan, kard, and relevant kara if they were worn on both hands) before going junglepaani.

I have not heard of having to take off kirpan/karai when sleeping, where have you heard this?

Fateh Singh, I will try and dig out old references stating a Singh should never be seperate fro his shastar.

[Matheen]

You have a point where going for jungle-paani is concerned. AFAIK, most people have a separate Sri Sahib for having ishnaan, going for a no. 2 etc ( even this is worn around the head; clothes and dastaar are also changed, and full ishnaan taken). The Kara is 'maanjed' with sand after wards.

[Guest]

Shaheediyan veer, this is interesting. Can you please share source which puratan rehit states that? prem sumarag?

[fatehsingh]

As per puratan rehits, a Singh used to take off his shastar (kirpan, kard, and relevant kara if they were worn on both hands) before going junglepaani.

I have not heard of having to take off kirpan/karai when sleeping, where have you heard this?

Fateh Singh, I will try and dig out old references stating a Singh should never be seperate fro his shastar.

Per Namdhari Maryada if someone falls asleep (even napping), one must do Ishnaan before handling Granth Sahibs or Gutkas. Shasters are the same way. A veteran sevadar at Hazur Sahib also confessed to Satguru Partap Singh Ji that he had his finger cut by a sword of Guru Gobind Singh when he got lazy and not do ishnan before handling it after a quick nap. These days, I don't know if this awareness is still there as the meaning of 'purification' has changed per some youtube videos.

[shaheediyan]

I'm not sure I follow. Having darshan of Sri Guru Granth Sahib, yes, as this is also as per Akhand Paath seva etc.

But if say one needed to release and use his shastar in a situation (before, during or after sleep), he is isn't going to have time to do ishnaan...?

Regarding the Takht Shastar, that is a different matter, as they sit in the place of the Shastardhari Guru - and there is a puratan maryada regarding handling them, doing their seva.

Anyway, N30, one quick reference is the Desa Singh Rehitnama (67) - where it states a Singh should put on his shastar 'after' his morning functioning.

[Samadhi]

Doesnt this become abit over the top and abit ritualistic when people start beliving that is a major 'sin' to take off a kakkar? Surely God isnt going to banish me to 'hell' or punish me because someone removes there kirpan for MMA or any other support for that matter.

[fatehsingh]

But if say one needed to release and use his shastar in a situation (before, during or after sleep), he is isn't going to have time to do ishnaan...?

Regarding the Takht Shastar, that is a different matter, as they sit in the place of the Shastardhari Guru - and there is a puratan maryada regarding handling them, doing their seva.

Check that question replacing 'Shaster' with 'Granth Sahibs'. What if in the same scenario of being attacked at night, you have a Granth Sahib in your room, like Hari Singh Nalwa did (he slept on the floor and gave Manji to the Granth Sahib ofcourse) that needs to be removed from the premises? Would you go do Ishnaan first? In such cases exceptions have to be made of course, with appropriate Ardas afterwards seeking forgiveness. You can keep the Kirpan nearby at sleep, without touching it during sleep, and still be able to defend yourself should the need arise.

On the same token one can turn around and say what if one is attacked during performing #2, lol, you agreed that Kirpan should be removed at that time, so how would you answer those who say you'll be left exposed in such a situation and therefore Kirpan MUST be worn while on toilet?

Good point about historical Takhat Shastars being more sacred because they belonged to the Guru and have been touched by Guru Gobind Singh.

[Matheen]

Even within particular groups/ jathas, levels of sucham kept vary from person to person. However I've never heard of sleep/rest being 'jhoota' to the extent that Kirpan should be removed - must be a Namdhari thing. It is usual to have 5 ishnan after resting, but not full ishnan unless one goes to the loo.

Samadhi - it's more or less a personal thing, as people progress, they tend to keep as much sucham as possible, while remaining practical.

[Xylitol]

i know a singh who wore very small kirpan and kanga for wrestling, the symbolic kind that are worn around the neck for airplanes. His position was that we want to stay as close to dharm as possible, which makes a lot of sense to me. But wearing a full size kirpan for wrestling is just asking for an injury.

[shaheediyan]

Fateh Singh,

Lol, good point.

Come to think of it, the only puratan rehits I have come across re sleeping, only refer to the kachhera i.e. not sleeping naked. In fact, most rehits focus primarily on Kes and Kachhera.

[Mithar]

The Kakkars should never be seperated from one's body. If you are going to do seva of SGGSJ then it is a must that you take Ishnaan again, have an extra set of Suchay Kakars and wear them when doing seva. This is the current Maryadha being followed at Sri Harimandir Sahib. Not only your cloths but also your Kakars must be Suchay, that is why alot of rehetvaan Singhs always keep an extra set of Kakars specifically for seva purposes. Whether one goes to washroom to do no 1 or no 2, either way, Ishnaan and Suchay choths/kakkars is a must if one wants to do seva of SGGSJ.

Sant Baba Nidhan Singh jee of Nadaalon was very strict when doing seva. He would even follow this strictness of Suchamtaa when doing Langar di seva

[fatehsingh]

The Kakkars should never be seperated from one's body. If you are going to do seva of SGGSJ then it is a must that you take Ishnaan again, have an extra set of Suchay Kakars and wear them when doing seva. This is the current Maryadha being followed at Sri Harimandir Sahib. Not only your cloths but also your Kakars must be Suchay, that is why alot of rehetvaan Singhs always keep an extra set of Kakars specifically for seva purposes. Whether one goes to washroom to do no 1 or no 2, either way, Ishnaan and Suchay choths/kakkars is a must if one wants to do seva of SGGSJ.

Sant Baba Nidhan Singh jee of Nadaalon was very strict when doing seva. He would even follow this strictness of Suchamtaa when doing Langar di seva

That is very interesting. Agree with everything, except taking Kirpan into bathroom part as it is a rather sacred kakaar compared to the others, bar the Kesh ofcourse. But perhaps, in the same way an Amritdhari MUST keep kesh covered while going #2 to protect the kesh from the bad environment, perhaps the Kirpan can also be wrapped up for those who don't want to separate from Kirpan while on toilet?

[amardeep]

ig~lI su~kI k~C pwie ley ] k~C dy pauNcy dw isK ivswh nw kry

gliee sukee kaashh paae leae || kaashh dhae pou(n)achae dhaa sikh visaah naa karae

Whether the washed Kasheraa is wet or dry it should be put on. When removing the Kasheraa only one leg should be removed and put into the new Kasheraa.

Rehatnama Bhai Chaupaa Singh Jee

[jsingh96]

nihangs tend to believe that since they have their little punjshastar (very small shastars, the size of ones nail) in their dumalla, they are 'ok' for not keeping a kirpan on them whilst ishnaan and sleeping etc

i guess thats a way of still being 'within' marayda, but i think lacks purpose of what the marayda was meant for , i.e. kirpan/karad was meant for self-defense, meant to be a shastar

[Malwe Da Sher]

nihangs tend to believe that since they have their little punjshastar (very small shastars, the size of ones nail) in their dumalla, they are 'ok' for not keeping a kirpan on them whilst ishnaan and sleeping etc

Dunno where you got that from but its far from correct. Whether rightly or wrongly some Nihang Singhs do pesh just for parting with their 3 foot tulwar for a small period of time, let alone their normal kirpan. Theres a grave danger of misrepresentation when we try to make sweeping generalisation or present a norm of beliefs amongst a particular order.

[jsingh96]

Dunno where you got that from but its far from correct. Whether rightly or wrongly some Nihang Singhs do pesh just for parting with their 3 foot tulwar for a small period of time, let alone their normal kirpan. Theres a grave danger of misrepresentation when we try to make sweeping generalisation or present a norm of beliefs amongst a particular order.

Sorry, but thats just from what I saw in a brief period of time when I was in India. You definetly have spent a lot of time around the Dal so you could probably comment better but was it just me or do lot of Nihangs just wear that rope with the small kirpan on it when they are just relaxing?

I think generally we can all agree Nihangs keep the most shastar around though

[Malwe Da Sher]

The Kirpan on the rope, doree vale kirpan, is kept as a kakkar. Over that in a gatra nihang singhs often keep other shastar such as pesh kabz or khanjar - these are poojnik jungee shastar but it is the kirpan which is the kakkar of an amritdhari singh. While sleeping, having ishnan etc Nihang Singhs in India never take their doree vali kirpan off.

[Xylitol]

just cover up kirpan with your shirt in bathroom.

[fatehsingh]

MDS,

What is the punishment for removal of kirpan?

Wearing Kachera inside out = 25 Japji Sahibs, removing it = 50 Japji Sahib traditionally.

[shaheediyan]

Fateh Singh, in most other traditional orders, removal of kachhera = pesh. This may mean taking amrit again or punishment depending on what the Panj Pyare decide, depends on the jathaa.

[das]

Fateh Singh, in most other traditional orders, removal of kachhera = pesh. This may mean taking amrit again or punishment depending on what the Panj Pyare decide, depends on the jathaa.

I might be wrong, but I am always wondering why would doing something against the "thought to be traditional" means to take Amrit again??

- Is Amrit so weak that anyone can cancel it and needs to take it again??

- How could this type of Amrit take people out of Sansar Sagar if it (Amrit) cannot maintain itself??

Please don't trap Amrit in a limited way........What is Sanskar Amrit?.......Where we initiate into Khalsa BY HAVING A GURU as Guru Granth Sahib Ji. e.g 40 Mukte wrote to Guru Ji that they are NOT their Sikhs, and YOU are not our GURU.........basically reversed the Sanskar Amrit.....but when they reprented, GuruJi did NOT ask them to take Sanskar Amrit again or do they??

My thinking is that: If one take Sanskar Amrit is one human birth, then he do NOT have to take it in every human birth. But yes, we don't know if we took it in previous birth or not. So, kindly treat Amrit as something which does have the capacity to take us to the next level.

Bul chuk de maffi