Keski And Being Religious

[bhooliya]

This is kind of shocking but...

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/23/fashion/weddings/23RAI.html?ref=weddings

[amardeep]

Lets kidnap the husband and chop his head of so that sikh girls will never dare to marry outside of religion !

[SAadmin]

I hope you are joking mate lol

[bhooliya]

Sikh girls are not instructed to marry this way if they follow religious beliefs. Let me emphasize only if they follow religious beliefs. This is her own personal decision and it has nothing to do with Sikhism. I would have ignored it if she had not worn turban which is quiet a surprise.

Edited May 24, 2010 by bhooliya

[PAL 07]

i dont thinks shes amritdhari

but shes definetely taking the piss out of dastaar

http://vimeo.com/11997086

Edited May 24, 2010 by PAL 07

[Silence]

if not even amritdhari,, why the dastar???

[PAL 07]

kaljug thats what it boils down to

"is yug me sharam dharam na koe, kali ka janam chandal ke ghar hoe" SGGS

I RECKON SINGHS SHOULD APPROACH HER REGARDING DASTAAR ISSUE

[amardeep]

eeeeeh why not start with sardar men that drink ? why these double standards?

[PAL 07]

LOL - good point i didnt think of that amardeep - lets sort out all those sardars first that sit in pubs getting drunk - reminds me of when i was a kid and first went to india, my dad took me to a dhaba and i was shocked when i saw sardars with with white turbans and long beards drinking whisky like its coca cola.

[amardeep]

a lot of pakistanis i've met think that sikhs are allowed to drink since they always seem to be drunk at weddings

[Silence]

yeah i agree, but still a dastar on men has also been accepted as simply part of punjabi culture, due to time and cultural reasons its known that a turban on a man is not an automatic sign of religiousness/being amritdahri, however a turban for women is UNIQUE in Sikhi for amritdharis. so whether she likes it or not and whether it is so called equal or not, due to circumstances she IS automatically making a declaration of religiousness by being a woman and wearing a dastar.

[dalsingh101]

Just makes me think. Parents can do whatever to raise a child religiously practicing and culturally aware, but that is no guarantee that outside influences or even personal preferences wont override these.

[shaheediyan]

Many women from West Africa wear all sorts of 'turbans' many of which are indistinguishable from Sikh ones.

This is a non-issue in my opinion. You can't stop someone wearing a keski or long cloth worn in the same way. The girl doesn't seem to be amritdhari, but definately seems to want to connect to her Sikh roots via the headwear. Legally or religiously I feel any challenge would end in embarresment for those that commit to it.

Also, even if she is Amritdhari, realistically, all those that have issues with her decision can do is simply 'not talk to her'!

We live in a very complex world, Sikh is no longer under one banner, it takes umpteen forms and their a many interpretations, we should get ready to accept more of the same.

Answer lies as always in education, education, education, practice, practice, practice (of Guriskh Jeevan by the family).

[SURYADEV]

I agree with shaheediyan here.

How many times do our Singhs need to publically embarrass themselves trying to 'talk' to someone , to explain thier wayward ways. usually we are quite good at turning a non-issue into a media PR debacle.

Just because she is a woman doesn't mean we should be up in arms about what she has done. Its v similar to Manindra Bedi having a Ek Oankar taattoo on the body and the SGPC going into rage about her hurting the Sikhs sentiments. How many others have the same tattoo ontheir same hands that they wipe their backside with?? No one has ever spoken up against that; usually because it probs men who wear such tattoos?!

Edited May 25, 2010 by jattboot

[backward]

I wish her all the best and hope that she continues to wear a beautiful smile!

[kdsingh80]

Its v similar to Manindra Bedi having a Ek Oankar taattoo on the body and the SGPC going into rage about her hurting the Sikhs sentiments. How many others have the same tattoo ontheir same hands that they wipe their backside with?? No one has ever spoken up against that; usually because it probs men who wear such tattoos?!

Mandira bedi is not targeted because she is a woman.It is because she painted big tattoo on her back and tried to exploit sikh symbol.Today mandira is painting

ik onkaar tomorrow other models could also exploit sikh symbols then what? And BTW do I need to remind that how many time Harbhajan singh is targeted by Akal

takhat .When Harbhajan did Ravan dance with Mona singh who also is a sikh Akal takhat forced Harbhajan to apologise while nothing was said to Mona singh.did anyone at that time call it sexism?

It looks to me that in sikhism only men are going to be criticised When someone say anything about women

then immdiately he is called sexist

[dalsingh101]

There isn't much we can do about such things without making ourselves look like pillocks. The abject dumbness of strangers trying to berate her will only probably result in the emergence of another article along the lines of 'How bigots tried to prevent the course of true love but failed.'

There is just no way I can see more mixed relationships not occurring, at least in the west. The only solution I can see is for the community to become more inclusive so that they can absorb nonPanjabi blood into the quom. That is something we struggle with given our insularity.

As far as I am concerned, those that choose to ignore it or blame it away as the actions of deviant 'Panjabis' instead of even trying to address the matter on a community level don't help much either.

[Silence]

I'm gonna ask a question, just for the debates sake. Alot of memebers on this board pride themselves on so called traditional sikhi, however when it comes to many issues actually in real life, they seem to take liberal modern approaches. How do you think something like this would have been dealt with by our forefathers? In fact this kind of occurance would not even be dreamt of has even happening in the first place.

Edited May 25, 2010 by Silence

[dalsingh101]

I'm gonna ask a question, just for the debates sake. Alot of memebers on this board pride themselves on so called traditional sikhi, however when it comes to many issues actually in real life, they seem to take liberal modern approaches. How do you think something like this would have been dealt with by our forefathers? In fact this kind of occurance would not even be dreamt of has even happening in the first place.

You've answered your own question in more than one way Silence. Firstly the social norms and pressures in the Panjab of the past didn't really allow for such stuff to be openly engaged in. That being said, if you read Dabistan, it does indicate that some cross cultural shagging did go on, even in the time of the earlier Gurus. The very strong romantic traditions of Heer Ranjha, Sohni Mehiwal etc. etc. also indicate that forbidden love and secret liasons weren't unknown either.

How our forefathers would have dealt with such situations a difficult one. Firstly their natural reaction would have been to honour kill I imagine. But we have to factor in the strength of the later kurimaar injunction. I'm not sure if this was extended to jawan kurian.

But this would have been a major deal. We can get some idea of this from the way many fathers considered killing their daughters better than them bring raped, kidnapped and/or killed at partition I think.

One thing I think we sometimes overlook is just how strong a force social pressure is, at least in terms of conformity. I believe this is felt even more by females who usually have much more social needs than the average bloke. Given the completely different social pressures and pulls in modern society, I'm not sure that we can compare the experience of growing up in the west today, to anything remotely like the environment of our forefathers. One thing I do know though, and that is ignoring the existence, or underplaying this pressure felt to fit into the majority or pretending females don't have sexual impulses, or a strong need for partnership is a fool's game and probably makes the above even more inevitable in SIkh families. I think it is an issue that will not go away and at best can be 'managed'. I've always suspected the very early age Panjabi Sikhs were married at (which still went on in my grandparent's generation), may well have arisen as some sort of way of minimising the chances of the equivalent situation to the above also.

Edited May 25, 2010 by dalsingh101

[bhooliya]

The problem with wearing turban and acting this way may bring lots of bad consequences for Sikh women. You know westerns see turban wearing women as religious or cultural and not many try to approach them. Let me describe what I meant by bad consequences.

We have Sikh woman here

winning her case and trying to spread the word of Sikhism. The simple message is that she is religious and not a piece of meat. Now I have no problem with this girl's selection of partner but she is carrying a image of religious woman. The days are not too far when every Joe and Harry will be stalking and approaching "Turban wearing" woman and asking for a date... Don't you think that's embarrassing for a baptized Sikh woman?

This is my personal opinion that Sikh community should approach this girl and try to know her reasons for wearing turban. If it's just for the fashion then there is no problem with it but she should make public disclosure.

Edited May 25, 2010 by bhooliya

[amardeep]

"The days are not too far when every Joe and Harry will be stalking and approaching "Turban wearing" men and asking for a drink... Don't you think that's embarrassing for a baptized Sikh man?"

Edited May 25, 2010 by amardeep

[Guest zulu]

whats it to you anyway? why cant you let her live her life and you live yours? It is not harming you in anyway is it?.

[bhooliya]

whats it to you anyway? why cant you let her live her life and you live yours? It is not harming you in anyway is it?.

It's not harming anyone personally but it may bring lots of questions within your family. There is no force or threatening tone here just simple opinion. In USA, you can express your personal opinion as long as you are not threatening someone. You can approach someone with their permission and ask for an explanation and that's what I have written in my post. I have not issued any "Muslim Fatwa" for her. Please take a look at Freedom Of Speech act http://www.ripoffreport.com/ConsumersSayThankYou/FalseReport.aspx ... Let's not make it personal and rather concentrate on the topic. There is no force here to stop her from living her life. I am very liberal person but everyone has curiosity within their mind. I hate myself religious wackos as Bill Maher shares his insight here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ipp-l_32M8 ... I would like to withdraw myself from this discussion now.

Edited May 26, 2010 by bhooliya

[SAadmin]

It appears there are three issues people have concern with:

1. Why she is wearing a make up with dastar on her head?

This one is already discussed in the forums with references from gurbani on the forums, khalsa can be raj-jogi-tyagi- raj- royalty in rehni/behni, jogi - jog towards vahiguroo, tyagi (never be attached with anything ie- lifestyle, can tyaag everything in one instant) all in one, as long kurehits are not committed its fine. This has nothing to do with avastha of an individual.

2. Why she is married a non sikh?

She broke maryada rule by marrying someone who is not gursikh but thats her personal decision. If she challenges sikh maryada on this then we should give her moo tor jawab but she is following her own life, its between guru sahib and her. We should be disappointed yes, but we shouldmove on there is no point passing fatwas on her or discussing her marriage on the forum. Who knows what guru maharaj has planned for her? May be in over time, her husband would be inspired by her lifestyle and sikhi or kids turn out to be sikh or vice versa she or her kids turn jewish. Non SIkhs become sikhs, its in the hakum, sikhs becoming muslim, hindu, jewish its all in hakum. We should accept it, only thing we can try to do is improve our parchar.

3 Why is she wearing dastar? She should take it off.?

Why should she take it off? She feels its her identity. She may be wearing it for cultural reasons for all we know as many punjabi men wear it. She lives in new york where regular public is highly ignorant of sikhi, atleast she is promoting dastar worn by sikhs. It takes real character to wear a dastar in pride in such hostile place where taunts - arab, rag head, osama bin laden are thrown very common at people who seem middle eastern to western people.

[bhooliya]

Sikh Coalition is doing a great job on promoting Sikh identity and we should support them.

http://www.sikhcoalition.org/

Now to this topic everyone has their own opinion, which is fine, as long as it's not dangerous or threatening. I believe that we should have tolerance because everyone has their own personal understanding of Sikhism. I don't want to see few Sikhs declaring her Anti-Sikh and running behind her on the roads. We should not act like fanatics but in civilized society initiating communication is the best method. I believe that Sikhism is breaking apart due to lack of communication.