Purpose Of Dasam Granth

[Singh123456777]

A person can understand a little of what gurbani is saying from English translations. Satkiran I recommend you learn punjabi cause English translations can only teach you a tad of what is written there.

Also bestiality exists in india. In the pinds of india people bang cows etc. Guru Ji has every right to tell his Sikhs about bestiality.

Sri charitarpkhyian also has many stories about men too so Satkiran just shup up

[Ragmaala]

paapiman, you crack me up bro! lol

[CdnSikhGirl]

That may be... I cant say who enjoys it more... but thats not the same thing as sex drive and pressuring the other.  

As I have shown (and already knew) women are more discerning about who they will end up having sex with, because they are scared of the implications of pregnancy and labour (pain), meaning women are FAR less likely to sleep around casually.  For men, its way easier to have sex and then leave.  Not saying all men do this. Just that its far easier for them to do it.  Its kind of hard for a woman to walk away from a pregnancy (at least without considering abortion - and that wasn't an option in those days and should not be an option today unless theres immediate risk to the Mothers life).

So even if women may enjoy it more... (I mean it's a subjective experience so who knows for sure really? ). But its not about who enjoys it more.. its about who is more likely to solicit / deceive / coerce for it.  And studies have shown over and over that its men.  Not all men... as some men do look for commitment.  But men are the ones far more likely to engage in casual sex.  Yes women do too.. but men do it in far higher numbers.  

The Dasam Granth however turns this backward and makes it seem like women do it in far higher numbers.  So my original question stands... what was the purpose of doing that??  If dasam granth was for both Sikh men and women, then what is the message to men? What is the message to women?  Why no similarly descriptive stories of men coercing women into sex?  

For whoever mentioned that it was well known in that day, so no need to mention it... many women were still naive and could have benefitted from being warned about the 'wiles of men' 

 

[Crystal]

Satkiran, you clearly don't know the real world and the society we live in. 

 

Crystal

[paapiman]

 

The Dasam Granth however turns this backward and makes it seem like women do it in far higher numbers.  So my original question stands... what was the purpose of doing that??  If dasam granth was for both Sikh men and women, then what is the message to men? What is the message to women?  Why no similarly descriptive stories of men coercing women into sex?  

For whoever mentioned that it was well known in that day, so no need to mention it... many women were still naive and could have benefitted from being warned about the 'wiles of men' 

 

​Rape has existed for many years. Most likely, most women at that time were aware of rape. Usually, men look more dangerous than women, while women seem to be harmless beings. It was important to reveal the dark side of some women too. I don't think, women psyche has been exposed in details ever before, by any religious figure. Therefore, it was very important for Maharaaj to save and guide his Sikhs.

Bhul chuk maaf

[dalsingh101]

As I have shown (and already knew) women are more discerning about who they will end up having sex with, because they are scared of the implications of pregnancy and labour (pain), meaning women are FAR less likely to sleep around casually.

You want to come to England:You'll soon be cleared of that misconception!

 

 

Why no similarly descriptive stories of men coercing women into sex?  

For whoever mentioned that it was well known in that day, so no need to mention it... many women were still naive and could have benefitted from being warned about the 'wiles of men' 

They probably were, by family members. 

 

But let's get this straight, like TODAY with all the Sikh girls being warned about grooming here in the UK,  a good few of them still managed to get overpowered with lust to fall into the trap. 

[CdnSikhGirl]

​Rape has existed for many years. Most likely, most women at that time were aware of rape. Usually, men look more dangerous than women, while women seem to be harmless beings. It was important to reveal the dark side of some women too. I don't think, women psyche has been exposed in details ever before, by any religious figure. Therefore, it was very important for Maharaaj to save and guide his Sikhs.

Bhul chuk maaf

​I am not saying there aren't women who are like that, but they are in a minority.  Just like I know that most men are decent guys who want commitment and make their wives happy etc. 

But what I am questioning is the way in which these things were represented. Was dasam granth only meant for males to read? If both genders were meant to read it then it certainly would have also had the wiles of men.  And having so many stories over and over entered into the mind of anyone, would make them very weary of women in general. It doesn't come out and say that hey keep in mind these are a minority of women, and that majority of women are good. The way its written as was pointed out, psychologically conditions men to suspect ALL women, and think that ALL women are like that. And you cant tell me that doesn't affect how they treat women if they think this way.  Look how media is doing it now with blacks in the USA. MANY people are now so psychologically conditioned that blacks = crime that most people in the USA fear them and its affected how they are treated.  For those of you in the USA, would you willingly walk alone in a totally black neighbourhood at night?? Most black people don't engage in crime... but seeing the same sort of stories over and over in the media has conditioned us all to suspect ALL blacks. We have suspicion about them BEFORE we get to know them.  I am even guilty of this... though I see everyone as human, and I never discriminate, if I was told to walk alone through an entirely black neighbourhood at night, I'd still feel uneasy and its because of the conditioning caused by the media focusing on shootings etc in these neighbourhoods. 

Its one thing to warn about some women... its another to make men so afraid of women all together that they hold all of them in contempt and suspicion. Its going from one extreme to the other.  Was this the intended purpose??? 

I think that somewhere in the middle would have been more optimal.  

 

[paapiman]

 

I think that somewhere in the middle would have been more optimal.  

​Don't follow manmat, follow Gurmat. We are nobodies to tell Satguru jee, what to do and how to do.

Bhul chuk maaf

[paapiman]

MANY people are now so psychologically conditioned that blacks = crime that most people in the USA fear them and its affected how they are treated.  For those of you in the USA, would you willingly walk alone in a totally black neighbourhood at night?? Most black people don't engage in crime... but seeing the same sort of stories over and over in the media has conditioned us all to suspect ALL blacks. We have suspicion about them BEFORE we get to know them.  I am even guilty of this... though I see everyone as human, and I never discriminate, if I was told to walk alone through an entirely black neighbourhood at night, I'd still feel uneasy and its because of the conditioning caused by the media focusing on shootings etc in these neighbourhoods. 

 

​That is normal, as you are a human. Therefore, it is important for a person to stay within his/her limits, and not question Lord's work.

Bhul chuk maaf

[paapiman]

 Was dasam granth only meant for males to read? 

​It is also meant to be read by females. Females should read them and try to protect their husbands, brothers, etc from evil women. In addition, on average, women are better at reading body language than men. Therefore, a female can greatly impact family life.

Bhul chuk maaf

[Singh123456777]

Can this thread be closed?

[jaikaara]

Satkirin ..i knew this would end here...guys understand one thing ..this is a lesson for all of us ..today all of us are trying to keep Satkirin pleased as she is a white convert .at every step she has a pre determined argument of judging the Bani of the Gurus from the feminist point ..best of luck to her no issues ..

But ask this question to yourselves had you tolerated this if she was a convert from a Hindu Family ? Until now one of you must have hurled abuses ..baahmanvaadi ..rss agent ..etc.

The efforts what the Panth altogether puts to keep a white neo sikh happy had you put for prachaar in the society today the Khalsa would have been more than 20% of the population.

Think over it ...

Bhula Chuka Muaaf Karni ..

Siri Akaal ji Sahaai

[ibrute]

I used my time to respond and she still stuck on feminist approach, same thing was happened in why females can't be in Panj Pyaare.

I gave up.

[Crystal]

Satkirin ..i knew this would end here...guys understand one thing ..this is a lesson for all of us ..today all of us are trying to keep Satkirin pleased as she is a white convert .at every step she has a pre determined argument of judging the Bani of the Gurus from the feminist point ..best of luck to her no issues ..

But ask this question to yourselves had you tolerated this if she was a convert from a Hindu Family ? Until now one of you must have hurled abuses ..baahmanvaadi ..rss agent ..etc.

The efforts what the Panth altogether puts to keep a white neo sikh happy had you put for prachaar in the society today the Khalsa would have been more than 20% of the population.

Think over it ...

Bhula Chuka Muaaf Karni ..

Siri Akaal ji Sahaai

Wow very true. I'm sure if this topic was on another forum and satkiran Hindu I'm sure we would be seeing posts such as goi and RSS. Well said. As paapi said...we are nobody to question maharaj. Our minds are filled with dirt, he is our cleanser

Edited July 10, 2015 by Crystal
Adding

[paapiman]

Satkirin ..i knew this would end here...guys understand one thing ..this is a lesson for all of us ..today all of us are trying to keep Satkirin pleased as she is a white convert .at every step she has a pre determined argument of judging the Bani of the Gurus from the feminist point ..best of luck to her no issues ..

​Bro, some Singhs did give her good replies.

Anyways, if a Sikh treats a white convert different from a Hindu convert, then he does not deserve to be called a Sikh.

Bhul chuk maaf

[amardeep]

Satkirin:

The purpose of the Charitro Pakhyan is clear - to present the world as it is. Thats why early Sikh litterature calls it "Sansaar mein bani" (scripture about worldly affairs). It does not contain any spiritual guidance as such, - only moral and ethical. The purpose of it is to show the affairs of men and women in times of Peace, times of war, times of conflict, times of struggle, times of stress, times of deception and the reality of religious hypocracy.... Many of the stories regard people who were looked upto or feared in society (administrators, religios priests etc).. To attack their social status in the eyes of people - they are made fun of and exposed....  You read it as stigma of women, - others will read it as stigma of men as they are labelled as weak creatures that can't control their lust and merely follow their whims and Desires. Depending on who the reader is, the reader can find reasons to object to it. And this was probably also the reason why it was written. To smash reality into ones face.

 

People today are too focused on the sexual content, but the lust for women or worldly things in the stories are often the medium for something else - warfare, social issues between husband and wife, conflicts in extended families etc. It basically shows that much of world drama is due to lust and attachment to worldly things. I dont really think many people would disagree with this - look at wars of today - often based on a fight/lust for ressources

[Singh123456777]

Satkirans beliefs ain't gonna change so let's close this thread please.

[paapiman]

 You read it as stigma of women, - others will read it as stigma of men as they are labelled as weak creatures that can't control their lust and merely follow their whims and Desires. 

Excellent point.

​Bhul chuk maaf

[Singh123456777]

I'm don't trying to explain. My bhagti is not advancing with these conversations.

[namdhari55]

Satkiran Kaur i hope this helps

 

http://www.patshahi10.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=347:charitropakhyan-and-i-a-woman-by-sanjam-kaur&catid=34:english&Itemid=63

Charitropakhyan and I, a Woman

Sanjam Kaur*

I am a woman with two teenage daughters and I have recently finished reading the English translation of Charitropakhyan. The whole text of Charitropakhyan deals with different aspects or shades of a woman's nature, some good some bad. The claims by some that these are useless sensual tales arise from incomplete reading of Chritropankhyan with a fickle mind already polluted by the kaamic mud which is all around us.  Charitropakhyan should be read in its totality.  If one finds them to be sensual tales, it is because all around us there is nothing but 'kaamic' play of the dark-age, kalyug, which has increased millions times more since the time of rachna of Sri Dasam Granth. Guru Granth Sahib Ji teaches us to do bhakti and have gyan too. Bhakti is like a boat which will carry us across this terrifying ocean of fire, and gyan will teach us how to swim across this dark ocean. Charitropankhyan  read with a discerning mind will give us gyan so that we can build a strong fort of viveka to overcome one of the five vikaras called kam or lust. 

If you all read Sri Guru Granth Shaib Ji, you will understand that we are asked to reach the turiya state where we become the knower or the observer in us. This observer in all of us who is gone through infinite experiences in infinite lifetimes, and is now here in this human body and has the great gift of being a Sikh and know Guru Granth Sahib Ji as our Supreme Guru, the King of this kalyug, that observer can greatly appreciate the lessons Guru Gobind Singh Ji is trying to teach to his beloved Khalsa in Charitropakhyan. 

Let us think about a Sikh Sirdar, our Guru Sahib’s beautiful incredible creation called Khalsa. Guru Gobind Singh Ji created the Khalsa and put him where? Did the great Guru create a perfectly pure place, sterile from all vices for his Khalsa to live in? No. Guru Ji ordered his Khalsa to live here amongst everyone else, to marry, to have family, to earn an honest living. You all know that to live in a grihasta jeevan one has to constantly interact with a woman in different forms - his mother, his wife, his daughter. All you women also know that not much harm can be done to a good man by his mother or daughter, but it is the stage of youth and the problems and the enjoyments that come with it, which can either raise a man or drown him into kaamic mud.

All the young women must be able to fully understand how much influence they can have over a man. Now do you all young women, Sikh or non-Sikh, have not come across some woman who is so vile and of bad character that you would never want your husband or fiancé to even know her? Would you not try to protect the man you love from such a woman? Of course you would. We all do, just as a man would protect his wife/daughters. Try to understand, though by keeping away from a bad person may work in case of a woman, but when it comes to protecting a good man from a woman of bad character, it would not be that simple. I bet you all have seen numerous ways women try to deceive a good man or lure him into doing the kinds of things which are sinful. Would we (all women of the world, Sikh and non-Sikh) not try to protect our sons and husbands from women of such low characters? And so did Guru Gobind Singh Ji through his composition, Charitropakhyan.

Why can’t Guruji describe to his Sikhs, whom he considers his sons, different ways a woman can deceivingly lead a man down into the dark and twisted path of kaamic sins? If Guru Gobind Singh Ji said "Khalsa meero roop hai khaas" then how can he not try to protect his Khalsa from all kinds of deceit and sensual treachery of women? After all men and women are both present in kalyug and brahmacharya is not the way to Moksha. If grahasta has and can lead to moksha then who is the other very important character of the grahsta jeevan other than man? Of course it is the woman. Can any woman on this earth say honestly that the men know all about how deceiving a woman can be? A man can be as evil as it can get, as is depicted and taught plenty of times to a girl while she is growing up. But the subject of a woman's deceit is still avoided due to various reasons including the fear that such an education can be considered as anti-feminine, or being unfair to the fair sex, or fear of being disrespectful to woman.

Haven’t women all over the world, in different time periods, in different continents, in different yugas, in different lokas have done that? Is the woman of today not doing that? Do not Bollywood, Hollywood, Hindi songs and all kinds of this world’s so called entertainment industry depict that? Can any woman Sikh or non-Sikh honestly deny that even one of the scenarios told in Charitropakhyan can never really happen? Can any woman Sikh or non-Sikh say that women are not capable of behaving in such shameful ways? No one can say it. I can also bet that all women in this world would have known some female with such deceitful character as described in Sri Dasam Granth.

Women are capable of committing such acts. Just as men can commit evil and heinous acts so can women.

Guru Gobind Singh Ji is the Great King who wanted to keep his Khalsa pure, and his composition Charitropakhyan plays that role of warning the Khalsa of the challenges it might face. The supreme Badshah has tried to show to his Sikhs that the fair sex is not so fair after all and has its own share of blame to take for the ills of the society. What is wrong in such a teaching? Is it not true that Guru Gobind Singh Ji is trying to protect his Khalsa? And is it not that this is what we all women want too and is it not that all the different chritras of women in Charitropakhyan, bad and good, are true? Guru teaches his Sikhs to be brave through all that.

If anyone finds these Charitars sexual it is because of two reasons, one he is not reading the whole chapter and just stopping because some of his hidden kaamic fantasies are popping up in his mind, or second he totally refused to see the tamasha of kaamic maya around him and failed to realize that our Great Guru did a great favor to his Sikhs by trying to protect them from all the deceitful sexual treacheries of women. There is no reason for any good man or woman to feel offended by it or feel sexually aroused by it. It is a dirty pile of all of our own fantasies gathered from the kaamic mud around us which is the cause of that. Our Guru is trying to give us his hand to pull us out of this kaamic quagmire.

If one reads Charitropakhyan and feels sexually aroused it is not the writings, but their fantasies which are responsible. Where do these fantasies come from? They come from Bollywood, Hollywood, billboards, and the list goes on. Everyday we all are bombarded by ashleel messages, overt or covert, from songs, movies, magazines which denigrate woman’s physical integrity. Yes it is true that one cannot control and stop all that nonsense, but as a Sikh you should rise above this and should be able to see the futility of all this - the evil effect this all can have on us. How can we not understand that these sound waves emitting from all the ashleel songs around us do affect us. These  are the cause of all your sexual fantasies. Getting rid of them is not easy, but if you read and understand Charitropakhyan  it is bound to  stop you from following that track and you will ask yourself, “Wait a minute, there is so much trash around me. This is not how my Guru wants me to be”. You will try to make an effort to free yourself from all the kaamic quagmire which surrounds all of us. Remember that our Guru Granth Sahib Ji does not prescribe the solution of running to jungles. We have to be here, and become jeevan mukta in the grihasta jeevan. No matter what way you look at it this is a spiritual war and Charitropakhyan is one of the many different ways our great Guru Gobind Singh Ji has shown to win this war.

Rise above this kaamic quagmire and you can clearly see that it is the kaamic mud of our minds which is not letting us realize the true purpose intended by our Great Guru Gobind Singh Ji in composing Charitropakhyan.

The content of Charitropakhyan is not “ashleel” as described by some. The details about a woman’s beauty and form wherever described in Charitropakhyan are there to explain about the twisted deceitful plan of action indented by her in all the tales.

Also as claimed by some, Charitropakhyan is not an attack on women.  I think every woman should read Charitropakhyan and I assure all the Sikh women that you will not at all feel offended because Guru Gobind Singh Ji is not criticizing women. Once a woman has read Charitropakhyan in all its totality only then she can come to her conclusions about the main idea and teaching that this composition intends. In it she will find help, a guide, an eye opener, for the good men in her life, not to get entrapped in this kaamic pitfall. We all know that a woman of bad character can make the dark hole of sin appear like a paradise to an unsuspecting man. Charitropakhyan opens his eyes and shows him that it is a dark hole of sin and nothing else. This is one of the numerous gifts of Guru Gobind Singh Ji to his beautiful Khalsa. It is my request to all Sikh women that do not take it personally. I want to ask all Sikh women that you all know quite well the extents of the great goodness of a woman’s heart, and you all also realize the devious and deceiving plans a woman is capable of plotting. There is not only the good heroine in the movie there is also a female villain, a vamp. Now project this to a real life. Don’t you believe that there are real life female villains too who are amongst us all? I am sure you can come up with many examples where a female character is evil beyond description. Once again I will humbly request all the Sikh women to read the Charitropakhyan in its totality.

You would be surprised as how much Guru Gobind Singh Ji loved his Khalsa and how he will always protect him. After all it is Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa. It is not some ordinary distinction. It is the greatest honor.

For those who think that Charitropakhyan cannot be read in front of their daughters and wives, probably do not understand that the intention of Guru Gobind Singh Ji in writing Charitropakhyan is not to insult women but to make men and women both understand how deceitful and devious a woman's character can be. I would request these people to sit with their wives or daughters or any other women dear and near to them and ‘finish’ reading Chritropankhyan. I am pretty sure no one will feel offended. There is one condition though - that you have to finish reading the whole tales. Why? Because, its only at the end of the tale that you will realize the warning which is given to a person to protect his honor.

Only after reading the whole of Charitropakhyan you will be saying “Oh my Great Guru Gobind Singh, you are amazing!”

------------

* Sanjam Kaur lives in Long Island, NY, USA

 

 

 

 

 

[namdhari55]

Satkiran Kaur this video will answer your questions pleae listen to this

Dr. Mohinder Kaur Gill on Sri Dasam Granth & Charitropakhiyan MUST LISTEN

 

 

 

[Lucky]

Satkirin:

The purpose of the Charitro Pakhyan is clear - to present the world as it is. Thats why early Sikh litterature calls it "Sansaar mein bani" (scripture about worldly affairs). It does not contain any spiritual guidance as such, - only moral and ethical. The purpose of it is to show the affairs of men and women in times of Peace, times of war, times of conflict, times of struggle, times of stress, times of deception and the reality of religious hypocracy.... Many of the stories regard people who were looked upto or feared in society (administrators, religios priests etc).. To attack their social status in the eyes of people - they are made fun of and exposed....  You read it as stigma of women, - others will read it as stigma of men as they are labelled as weak creatures that can't control their lust and merely follow their whims and Desires. Depending on who the reader is, the reader can find reasons to object to it. And this was probably also the reason why it was written. To smash reality into ones face.

 

People today are too focused on the sexual content, but the lust for women or worldly things in the stories are often the medium for something else - warfare, social issues between husband and wife, conflicts in extended families etc. It basically shows that much of world drama is due to lust and attachment to worldly things. I dont really think many people would disagree with this - look at wars of today - often based on a fight/lust for ressources

​The answer is in the very good post above, Satkirin.

lust does not mean sex,  and sex does not mean that lust has to be involved either....I know this is difficult to comprehend for some of us,.. but we need to read more bani and do more bhagti to get to this level of understanding.

The stories are about women because of the reasons mentioned in above post by Amardeep,....and I agree that most of us read it as stigma of men, where men fall weak to the power of the kaam dhoot...... Many many great kings, leaders and men have fallen victim to this according to history and scriptures all over the world.

Sri guru granth sahib gets you looking through a window by clearing up the fog and mist so that you can see the Truth clearly by going from the darkness-->lightness, ..from the mist-->to clarity... whereas CP/dasam bani is like a mirror and shows you and your ego's reflection that itself masks and covers any clarity seen through a clear window.

The idea is to work on our ego reflections such that the mirror ceases to exist and becomes the clear window instead, showing the truth in it's entire clarity.

 

 

 

 

 

[SikhKhoj]

Does this forum allow discussing the authorship of the Dasam Granth?

Edited July 13, 2015 by SikhKhoj

[amardeep]

Yep - there have been tons of anti-Dasam Granth debates here - the only ones who've been banned are those that insult the scripture openly. Critical debate has always been welcome here.

[CdnSikhGirl]

For myself, I am not convinced that the 'entire' dasam granth was authored by Guru Ji.  I am certain that *some* of it was.  However, since he did not declare it as 'Guru' I can never hold it on par with Sru Guru Granth Sahib Ji.  (Waiting for the onslaught of accusations now).

Our Gurus were very clear on equality of every human including gender. That is why I have a hard time believing that he would only write about the 'wiles of women' unless the granth wa sonly meant for men to read (maybe there is a similar book for his daughters warning them of the wiles of men which was somehow lost in history).  I also find it hard to believe that Guru Ji would paint his daughters to be the same image which the Gurus sought to change about women: that being that previously in the major religions, women were seen as temptresses, deceivers, obstacles to men's spiritual advancement, etc. To me the stories almost echo exactly the feelings that Hinduism had of women prior.  However, without equally disturbing claims about men in the dasam granth, it paints a very skewed picture of men being the innocent victims and women being all at fault for the evil in the world.  (or at least mostly... since the majority of the stories are against women).  So I was trying to understand, why would Guru Ji be saying women are so bad and not saying anything about men morally... was he trying to say that women are bad? But then, that goes against the very lines: Why call her bad when from her even kings (and queens) are born? I am not trying to claim all women are innocent by any means... just that there are bad people in EVERY group we choose to divide ourselves into.  So to to pick on one group and give the impression that nearly all women are like that doesn't seem right.  It does make men suspect of all women... which they were in those times anyway!  Remember many came from Hindu backgrounds, and Hindu culture was still prevalent, and they already thought women were temptresses there to steer men off their spiritual tracks.  So it was like after 200 years of the Gurus trying to uplift women, Guru Ji brought the thoughts back into men's minds to see woman once again as they were before Sikhism??

If it was only meant to show some aspects of society... as was mentioned that kings etc being deceived and hence perceived as weak... the way it was done still shows women as the ultimate evil in the stories. Ie Poor king / evil woman.  And the result is still the same... look at all women with distrust, and that perpetuates inequal treatment.  It's very similar to Christianity... Eve made Adam eat the apple by deciving him, therefore for all time, Christian women are to be in subjection to their husbands and never in authority over men. Seems almost the same sort of thing... paint women as deceivers, to justify putting them into subjection and a lower position in society. The accusation of no woman giving her head when Guru Ji asked for five heads solidifies it. Now with fervor, Singhs procliam that women are not "worthy" to do seva of panj pyaras, and women are kept from quite a bit of seva by different jathas and expected to sit 'quietly' and learn in submission while the men do all the authoritative duties.  You guys might not see it, but there is striking similarity.  In Hinduism, women are seen as deceivers and temptresses and so women must pray / learn in submission under men, and are not even allowed in some ashrams.  Bahai faith claims total equality, but keeps women from the one position that is the actual seat of authority in the religion the Universal house of justice.  For us, we claim equality, but use the 'equal but different' terminology to justify women being kept from many things that men get privelege.  And I was genuinely wondering if dasam granth over time has done more damage than good by planting thoughts in Singh's minds that women can not be trusted, are deceivers, are immoral etc.?? So it was a genuine question. I wasn't trying to start arguments and I wasn't asking to be personally attacked...

Anyway it is for these reasons that I am not 100% convinced that all content in dasam granth can be attributed to Guru Ji. It just seems like it would do more harm than good through psychological conditioning (whether intended or not).

Please don't attack me...

Regards.